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  #1301  
Old 07-08-2012, 07:01 AM
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She also gave her brother-in-law a title and offered one to her son-in-law.
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  #1302  
Old 07-08-2012, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
She gave her 4 children titles and her grandson one as well.
I thought they get their titles automatically because of their relationship with the monarch.
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  #1303  
Old 07-08-2012, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Royal Smurfness View Post
I thought they get their titles automatically because of their relationship with the monarch.
If you mean their titles as Prince and Princess then yes, they were automatic based on the 1917 Letters Patent as the children of the monarch. Charles and Anne were also born HRH Prince and Princess because of a decision of George VI without which they would have been styled as the children of a duke. Their peerages and Anne's style as Princess Royal were specific grants by the Queen. Only Charles Cornwall dukedom was automatic the moment his mother accended the throne, as the eldest son of the monarch.
Philip is the only person she has specifically created a Prince of the United Kingdom by Letters Patent. George VI had granted him the style of HRH along with the Edinburgh dukedom but had not made him a prince of the UK.
HM has also granted the style of HH to Karim Aga Khan IV, but that is not the same as making him a British prince.
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  #1304  
Old 07-08-2012, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
HM has also granted the style of HH to Karim Aga Khan IV,
HH = His Highness = King ?
Caqn I know the full story behind this?
Isn't the Aga Khan a religious figure for some Muslims?
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  #1305  
Old 07-08-2012, 09:29 AM
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HH = His Highness but not King.
Off topic but I believe the granting of the style of HH comes from the days of the British Raj in India when the Aga Khans were ranked among the princes of India. I am sure you can Google to find out more on the position of the Aga Khans.

FYI the Shah of Iran granted Karim Aga Khan IV the style of HRH for use in Iran.
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  #1306  
Old 07-08-2012, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Royal Smurfness View Post
HH = His Highness = King ?
Caqn I know the full story behind this?
Isn't the Aga Khan a religious figure for some Muslims?
Yes, Aga Khan is a religious figure. It is a heridiatery title of the Iman of Nizari Ismailism.

The case of Aga Khan is somewhat special. Queen Elizabeth granted him the style "His Highness" in 1957, after the death of his grandfather Aga Khan III. It was a traditional gesture by British Sovereigns since the first Aga Khan allied himself with Britain. For instance, Aga Khan III had himself been granted the style by Queen Victoria in 1885. The style is not hereditary and every new Imam must be given the style by the British Sovereign of the time. It is said that Aga Khan III had personally asked Queen Elizabeth to give the style to his successor.

The present Aga Khan also has the style of Royal Highness, granted to him by the Shah of Iran in 1959; however, since the Iranian Monarchy was overthrown in 1979, Aga Khan has not used that style and is only known with the style conferred to him by Queen Elizabeth - His Highness.
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  #1307  
Old 07-08-2012, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Royal Smurfness View Post
I thought they get their titles automatically because of their relationship with the monarch.
The only title that was automatic was Duke of Cornwall when Prince Charles became heir apparent.

Charles was invested as Prince of Wales, Anne was made The Princess Royal in June 1987, Edward and Andrew both received their titles upon marriage.
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  #1308  
Old 07-08-2012, 02:12 PM
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Yes, But they were all already HRH Prince/ss of the UK from the time of their mother's ascention.
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  #1309  
Old 07-08-2012, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by scooter View Post
Yes, But they were all already HRH Prince/ss of the UK from the time of their mother's ascention.
Well Charles and Anne were born HRH and Prince and Princess because of letters patent issued by their grandfather George VI. But for this decision they would have been styled as Earl of Merioneth and Lady Anne Mountbatten. They would have had to wait until their mothers accession to become HRH Prince and Princess. Andrew and Edward were born during their mothers reign so were automatically HRH and Prince from birth under the 1917 Letters Patent.
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  #1310  
Old 07-08-2012, 06:29 PM
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HRH Prince/Princess are styles not titles.

It is an automatic style for those who qualify.

Titles are more specific and the only ones that are automatic amongst the Queen's children are Duke or Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Earl of Carrick, Baron of Renfrew, Lord of the Isles, Prince and Great Steward of Scotland (all became Charles' titles the instant The Queen became The Queen).
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  #1311  
Old 07-08-2012, 06:40 PM
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With respect, Iluvbertie, while a Royal Highness is a style, a Prince/Princess is very much a title.
The title of a British Prince or Princess is automatic to those who qualify under Letters Patent 1917. At the same title the title is at the will of the Sovereign, who can grant and revoke it. The Monarch can grant the title of Prince/Princess through Letters Patent, Orders in Council, Royal Proclamations or other expressions of royal will.
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  #1312  
Old 07-08-2012, 06:47 PM
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What is the difference when a person's family name is part of the title, i.e. Earl Spencer as compared to the Earl of Derby? Would one title be higher than the other in these examples?
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  #1313  
Old 07-08-2012, 07:01 PM
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To be succinct, "of X" means the holder of the title has (or had) territories in X, came from X, or was strongly associated with X. Last name as a title (like Earl Spencer) means that the original last name was incorporated into his title.

For instance, the first Earl Spencer was the son of Honourable John Spencer; thus, Spencer was his surname before he was elevated to the rank of an Earl. Initially, he was created Baron Spencer of Althorp (Spencer still being his last name, not title, at the point), and then George III created him Viscount Althorp and Earl Spencer.

The "of" indicates a place, sometimes territorial domain and/or the place the holder of the title originated from or was strongly associated with. For instance Marquesses and later Dukes of Buckingham originated from Buckingham and/or owned territories in Buckinghamshire, the Duke of York (such as Richard III) usually had power over that region, etc. In times, the titles remained but the lands were gone, so "of X" became pretty meaningless.


There is no difference in ranking or precedence - just difference of wording and/or in history of the title. Ranking of titles depends on the peerage in which they were created. In order of precedence, those peerages are:
- Peerages of the Kingdom of England (in order of creation)
- Peerages of the Kingdom of Scotland (in order of creation)
- Peerages of the Kingdom of Great Britain (in order of creation)
- Peerages of the Kingdom of Ireland (in order of creation)
- Peerages of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
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  #1314  
Old 07-08-2012, 07:14 PM
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As always, thank you for the response and the detailed explanation, Artemisia.
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  #1315  
Old 07-08-2012, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post

With respect, Iluvbertie, while a Royal Highness is a style, a Prince/Princess is very much a title.
Prince/Princess is a style in the UK, not a title. Princes and princesses hold royal rank by virtue of their relationship to The Sovereign, but remain commoners unless granted a Peerage. At that point, they are titled by their Peerage.
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  #1316  
Old 07-08-2012, 10:47 PM
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HRH is the style. Prince of the United Kingdom is a title. It is not a peerage but it is a title just as Prince of Wales is a title but not a peerage.
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  #1317  
Old 07-08-2012, 10:53 PM
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Prince or Princess is a style as it isn't inheritable, and is held by commoners. A title is held by a peer of the realm - princes and princesses aren't peers of the realm. Prince of Wales is a special title but not a peerage, but attached to it is Earl of Chester which is a peerage.
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  #1318  
Old 07-08-2012, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
HRH is the style. Prince of the United Kingdom is a title. It is not a peerage but it is a title just as Prince of Wales is a title but not a peerage.
They are both styles governed by the will of The Sovereign for members of the royal family in descent and succession to the throne. It is a Germanic practice brought to Britain in 1714 by the Hanovers.

Anyone who is not The Sovereign or a Peer has no title and is a commoner.
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  #1319  
Old 07-08-2012, 11:00 PM
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According to the letters patent "Prince" is a titular dignity, which I would define as a title. HRH is the style, much like your garden variety duke enjoys the style of His Grace or the Aga Khan enjoys the style of HH.
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  #1320  
Old 07-09-2012, 04:02 PM
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That is what I always believed to be true as well.
The fact "prince" isn't an inheritable title doesn't say much; life peerages can not be inherited either, and yet they are definitely titles.

For instance, this is what the Official website of the British Monarchy has to say about the Earl of Wessex' titles and styles:
Quote:
His Royal Highness was born with the title Prince Edward, as he is a son of The Sovereign. He was created The Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn on his marriage in 1999; at the same time it was announced that His Royal Highness will eventually succeed to the title of The Duke of Edinburgh.
In every single page, whether on the BRF website, the PoW website or the much-maligned Wikipedia, Prince and Princess are named as titles.
Styles designate the status - Imperial, Royal, Serene, Illustrious (etc) Highness.
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