Questions about British Styles and Titles

[Baroness of Books]

At the time of the Earl and Countess of Wessex's marriage the announcement was made that with the couple’s consent, the Queen had decided that any children of the marriage would be styled as the children of an Earl rather than with the royal titles that they would be eligible for under the 1917 letters patent. So while legally Louse and James are Princess and Prince respectively as children of the male line from the sovereign, their style is known as Lady and Viscount respectively. This was done in an effort to keep the children out of the limelight if they didn't use their royal titles, as well trimming back on excess royal titles in the family. Presumably, they can assume their royal titles when they get older but by that time, Charles may be on the throne and issue a new LP to prevent that and future titles from being granted.

[branchg]

It was actually at the request of Edward and Sophie that their children not hold royal rank and The Queen granted her consent. They are automatically HRH Prince/Princess of the UK as male-line grandchildren of The Sovereign and this can only be taken away with the issuance of new Letters Patent depriving them of it.

The Queen did not officially change the criteria under the 1917 Letters Patent governing royal rank, so legally they remain HRH, but are styled as the children of a Peer with The Sovereign's consent.

[Iluvbertie]

Originally Posted by Royal Smurfness

Prince Andrew & Sarah Ferguson have two daughters, both carry the title Princess.
Prince Edward and his wife have a daughter too, but she is just a Lady.
Why is that so?

Under the 1917 Letters Patent (the legal document issued by the monarch dealing with titles) the following people are HRH Prince/Princesses:

The children of a monarch - Charles, Anne, Andrew and Edward
The male-line grandchildren of a monarch - William, Harry, Beatrice, Eugenie, Louise, James, Richard, Edward, Michael and Alexandra
The eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales: the as yet unborn eldest son of William.

Now by the late 90s, after the Diana years, the royals were on the nose with a lot of people and the press were turning on the family.

As a result Edward and Sophie, with The Queen's permission, decided that their children wouldn't use the Prince/Princess title but rather would take the style of the children of an Earl so Lady Louise Mountbatten-Windsor (her full name and the one used on the programme for William's wedding last year and in the CC about the wedding) and Viscount Severn.

James uses Viscount Severn, which is Edward's second title as a coutesy title. This is a tradition within the aristocracy for the heir to a title to use his father's second title.

If you are wondering who Richard, Edward, Michael and Alexandra are in the list of male-line grandchildren they are the other male line grandchildren of George V.

Richard is better known as HRH The Duke of Gloucester. His eldest son is known as the Earl of Ulster - his father's second title, and his eldest son is known as Lord Culloden - the Duke's third title. When The Duke dies the present Earl of Ulster will become The Duke (without the HRH) and Lord Culloden will become the Earl of Ulster.

Edward - the second Edward in my lists above - is HRH The Duke of Kent. His eldest son is known as the Earl of St Andrews as he is the heir to the Dukedom of Kent. The Earl of St Andrews eldest son is Lord Downpatrick.

Micheal is of course HRH Prince Micheal of Kent. As the second son of a Duke he has no other title but under the 1917 LPs his children are styled Lord and Lady - which is not normal - but is special for the younger sons of the sons of the monarch.

Alexandra is HRH Princess Alexandra - the only daughter of the late Duke of Kent.

George V had three other male line grandchildren - two of whom are deceased - HRH Prince William of Gloucester - the elder son of The Prince Henry but he predeceased his father and so didn't become The Duke of Gloucester. The other one who is deceased was HRH The Princess Margaret - originally HRH Princess Margaret of York. Her title changed from HRH Princess Margaret of York to HRH The Princess Margaret when her uncle abdicated.

The third male line grandchild is of course HM The Queen who was born HRH Princess Elizabeth of York.

Note that only the male line grandchildren get the style HRH Prince/Princess not the female line grandchildren - so no styles from their mothers for Peter, Zara, David Linley, Sarah Chatto, or the Harewoods (the descendents of George V's daughter Mary).

I hope I have not insulted you by telling you things you did know as that wasn't my intention but more to give you a full answer to your question by also explaining why there are other HRHs out there besides the descendents of The Queen.

[Royal Smurfness]

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie

I hope I have insulted you by telling you things you did know as tjat wasn't my intention but more to give you a full answer to your question

You don't insult me at all, I'm not English so there are many things about your monarchy I don't know.

[Iluvbertie]

Thanks for that reassurance.

[Baroness of Books]

It's always good to have detailed explanations since I find this topic to be very convoluted, yet fascinating.

[Kataryn]

I found it very interesting to find out that there is indeed a way for a woman to acquire the "Lady Firstname Lastname" style without having to be born the daughter of an earl, a marquess, a duke or a Royal prince.

Previously I had thought that all such styles are by courtesy only. But it's different for the Lady companions of the Orders of the Garter and the Thistle.
In such case the woman in question put the "Lady" before her complete name, like Lady Marion Fraser did as a Lady Companion of the Order of the Thistle. This title is higher than the one she has by courtesy as the wife of a Knight.

But it would be different is she was a peeress in her own right (like Baroness Thatcher) or the wife of a peer, sharing his title (like the Duchess of Norfolk), both Lady Companions of the order of the Garter. Then the peerage is deemed to be of higher rank, even if just shared due to marriage.

[Royal Smurfness]

Baron, Earl Duke, Lord: What is the order of titels, which is highest/lowest?
What is a female Earl?

[Lumutqueen]

Originally Posted by Royal Smurfness

Baron, Earl Duke, Lord: What is the order of titels, which is highest/lowest?
What is a female Earl?

In order of "rank" titles go as such;

1. Emperor/Empress
2. King/Queen
3. Grand Duke/Duchess or Grand Prince/Princess
4. Viceroy/Vicerine
5. Archduke/Archduchess
6. Prince Elector or Electress
7. Prince/Princess
8. Duke/Duchess
9. Marquess/Margrave
10. Earl/Count or Countess
11. Viscount/Viscountess
12. Baron/Baroness
13. Knight/Dame

A female Earl is a Countess.

[Tsar bobo Iv]

so would a pharaoh outrank an emperor

[Lumutqueen]

I imagine they would be on the same level, if a Pharaoh still existed.

[NGalitzine]

#11 should be Baron/Baroness
Youi also left out Viscount/Viscountess which is a higher peerage than a Baron.
A Baronet is not a peer, more like a hereditary knighthood.

[NGalitzine]

Viceroy is not a hereditary title, it is an appointed position rather like being Governor General.

[Lumutqueen]

Originally Posted by NGalitzine

Viceroy is not a hereditary title, it is an appointed position rather like being Governor General.

I'm going off the list of Royal and Noble ranks on wikipedia, which places Viceroy 4th. I accidentally missed of Viscount, thanks for pointing it out.

I'm also assuming you mean Viscount/Viscountess should be #11 and Baron should be #12. Baron is a title of nobility introduced by William I.

[NGalitzine]

Yes, if I had redone your list I would have placed Viscount above Baron, and Baronet below the Baron but above a knight.

[Lumutqueen]

Originally Posted by NGalitzine

Yes, if I had redone your list I would have placed Viscount above Baron, and Baronet below the Baron but above a knight.

That's how it is? I haven't included Baronet and Baronetess but wiki lists them after Baron, before Knight.

Here's the link; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baronet

[katmen]

Originally Posted by Tsar bobo Iv

so would a pharaoh outrank an emperor

pharaoh would be above all, he was also living god as was Japanese emperor tenno, he was considered as god also

[kbk]

A duke is higher in rank than a prince and viceroy is neither a Sovereign's nor a noble title.

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by kbk

A duke is higher in rank than a prince and viceroy is neither a Sovereign's nor a noble title.

Not necessarily.
A Royal Duke (such as the Duke of York) is higher in rank than a Duke, but ordinary Duke (such as the Duke of Westminster) is not.

[kbk]

Well, are we talking about the British peerage here? You are missing the point IMO.