Questions about British Styles and Titles

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by Noble Consort Ming

Despite the fact that there is no precedent for it is there any chance that Phillip would be called Prince Father? This title has been used in some countries although I realize it hasn't been used in England.

In theory, such a possibility does exist, although in reality, it is highly unlikely to happen.
Prince Charles would have to issue Letters Patent granting his father the official title of The Prince Father.

There is a precedence; in 1857, Queen Victoria granted her husband the official title of The Prince Consort - one that had never existed in Britain before that.
Incidentally, Prince Albert remains the only British Consort in history to have officially held the title).

[An Ard Ri]

Originally Posted by Noble Consort Ming

Despite the fact that there is no precedent for it is there any chance that Phillip would be called Prince Father? This title has been used in some countries although I realize it hasn't been used in England.

I think Prince Philip would balk at the very idea of that title

[Thena]

The only reason that the Queen Mother title was ever used by the mother of the current queen is because they both had the same name. It would have been too confusing to distinguish between the dowager Queen Elizabeth and Queen Elizabeth II.

If you look back, Queen Alexandra and Queen Mary did not use the title of "queen mother" when their sons were king. Neither did Queen Victoria's mother, who continued to be known as the Duchess of Kent.

[Tsar bobo Iv]

why isn't queen Elizabeth named Mountbatten instead of windsor

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by Thena

The only reason that the Queen Mother title was ever used by the mother of the current queen is because they both had the same name. It would have been too confusing to distinguish between the dowager Queen Elizabeth and Queen Elizabeth II.

If you look back, Queen Alexandra and Queen Mary did not use the title of "queen mother" when their sons were king. Neither did Queen Victoria's mother, who continued to be known as the Duchess of Kent.

Queen Alexandra and Queen Mary did not use the title The Queen Mother, but they both had it - Queen Alexandra from 1910 to 1925 (from George V's accession to the Throne to her death), Queen Mary from 1936 to 1952 (from Edward VIII and then George VI's accession to the Throne, and until Queen Elizabeth II became Queen).
Victoria of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld (Queen Victoria's mother) may have been the Queen's mother, but she never held the title of The Queen Mother for a simple reason; in order to be a Queen Mother, you have to be a Queen Consort first - and she was never that.

You are right, Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother used her title because she shared the same name with her daughter; otherwise, confusions were bound to arise what with there being two Queens Elizabeth. However, Queen Elizabeth The Queen mother had the title from the moment her daughter became Queen, same as Queen Mary and Queen Alexandra during the reigns of their children. Like the titles Queen Dowager, Queen Consort, and Queen Regnant, a Queen Mother doesn't usually use it, but it's still hers if she is a Queen Dowager whose child is the current Monarch.

Theoretically, if Queen Mary had been named Elizabeth as well, then from 1952 to 1953 there would have been three Queens Elizabeth in the country - Queen Elizabeth II (the Queen Regnant), Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother, and Queen Elizabeth The Queen Dowager.

[An Ard Ri]

Originally Posted by Tsar bobo Iv

why isn't queen Elizabeth named Mountbatten instead of windsor

The official name of the British Royal Family or Royal House is Windsor .Prince Philip of Greece adopted the surname Mountbatten (which was his mothers maiden name) in 1947.Prior to that his surname was the Danish-German House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg .


from wiki
On 9 April 1952, Queen Elizabeth II officially declared her "Will and Pleasure that I and My children shall be styled and known as the House and Family of Windsor, and that my descendants who marry and their descendants, shall bear the name of Windsor." On 8 February 1960, the Queen confirmed that she and her children would continue to be known as the House and Family of Windsor, as would any agnatic descendants who enjoy the style of Royal Highness, and the title of Prince or Princess.Still, Elizabeth also decreed that her agnatic descendants who do not have that style and title would bear the surname Mountbatten-Windsor.

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by Tsar bobo Iv

why isn't queen Elizabeth named Mountbatten instead of windsor

The simple (and short) answer to your question is: because she chose not to.

A bit more elaborate answer is also a lot longer. When Princess Elizabeth married Prince Philip, the standard practice would have been to adopt his surname or the name of the House he belonged to. Thus, the last name of their children should have indeed been Mountbatten (the surname Prince Philip chose), and not Windsor. For instance, when Queen Victoria married Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, the Reigning House she belonged to remained unchanged (Hanover), but her son and heir, Edward VII, belonged to the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (his father's Royal House). That would, in effect mean that once Prince Charles ascended to the Throne, the name of the Royal House should have changed from Windsor to Mountbatten.

However, just a month after her accession to the Throne, Queen Elizabeth issued Royal Proclamation of 1952, where she announced her decision that all she and "her children shall be styled and known as the House and Family of Windsor". A further proclamation was issued in 1960, whereby the Queen confirmed Windsor as the name of the Royal House and the family name of those of her and Prince Philip's descendants who enjoy the style of Royal Highness and the title of a British Prince/Princess. However, she also mentioned that those of their descendants who do not have such styles and titles will go by the surname Mountbatten-Windsor.

It has to be noted that Prince Charles, Princess Anne, Prince Andrew and Prince Edward have all used Mountbatten-Windsor as their surname in their private lives. However, officially they all continue to belong to the House and Family of Windsor.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri

The official name of the British Royal Family or Royal House is Windsor .Prince Philip of Greece adopted the surname Mountbatten (which was his mothers maiden name) in 1947.Prior to that his surname was the Danish-German House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg.

Princess Alice was never a Mountbatten. This surname was adopted by her father, Prince Louis of Battenberg, when George V ordered his German relatives who were British subjects to stop using their German styles and titles in 1917. Prince Louis dropped his princely style of Battenberg and assumed the style of Lord Louis Mountbatten until The King created him Marquess of Milford Haven in the Peerage.

Alice was born "HSH Princess Alice of Battenberg" and was known as such until she married HRH Prince Andrew of Greece & Denmark, at which point she became "HRH Princess Andrew of Greece & Denmark" in accordance with practice in the Greek Royal House.

Philip assumed the surname of Mountbatten when he dropped his Greek royal style and title and naturalized to British citizenship. When he was created Duke of Edinburgh by George VI, he ceased to have a surname as he was granted royal rank as HRH.

Also, the Greek Royal House has never used a surname, a point which King Constantine has consistently reiterated throughout his legal battles with the Greek government for many years. This so-called House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg has never existed as the senior Danish line is the House of Oldenburg, which currently reigns. The cadet line is "of Greece & Denmark" and that's it.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Artemisia

Queen Alexandra and Queen Mary did not use the title The Queen Mother, but they both had it - Queen Alexandra from 1910 to 1925 (from George V's accession to the Throne to her death), Queen Mary from 1936 to 1952 (from Edward VIII and then George VI's accession to the Throne, and until Queen Elizabeth II became Queen).
Victoria of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld (Queen Victoria's mother) may have been the Queen's mother, but she never held the title of The Queen Mother for a simple reason; in order to be a Queen Mother, you have to be a Queen Consort first - and she was never that.

"Queen Mother" is simply a style, not a title. In the UK, a Queen Consort is officially "HM The Queen" while her husband is The Sovereign and "HM Queen X" if they become a dowager queen. Neither Queen Alexandra nor Queen Mary ever used the style of Queen Mother nor was it ever announced they would be known as such.

Queen Elizabeth assumed the style of "HM Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother" in an announcement after her daughter became The Sovereign to avoid confusion with the fact the reigning Queen was Elizabeth II.

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by branchg

"Queen Mother" is simply a style, not a title. In the UK, a Queen Consort is officially "HM The Queen" while her husband is The Sovereign and "HM Queen X" if they become a dowager queen. Neither Queen Alexandra nor Queen Mary ever used the style of Queen Mother nor was it ever announced they would be known as such.

Queen Elizabeth assumed the style of "HM Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother" in an announcement after her daughter became The Sovereign to avoid confusion with the fact the reigning Queen was Elizabeth II.

Strictly speaking, Queen Mother is a title, a style, and a position.
As for the rest, I am in full agreement with you and never stated otherwise.

All types of Queen are usually known simply as "Queen Name".
When a man becomes King, his wife is automatically his Queen. However, no special announcement is made that she is the Queen Consort - even though that's exactly what a wife of a Monarch is; she's known simply as "Queen Name". Similarly, when a Queen Dowager's child becomes King or Queen Regnant, she automatically becomes Queen Mother; there is no need for a special announcement, and she's also known just as "Queen Name".

In case of Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother, a special announcement was needed not to grant her the title and style (which she had the moment Elizabeth II ascended to the Throne), but to announce she is officially to be known as The Queen Mother - something that had never been needed before.

[Tsar bobo Iv]

thank you branchg,Artemisia,and An Ard Ri for clearing things up for me

[ladongas]

Assume an earl has several ex-wives. Each of them is Firstname, Countess of Lastname. The earl dies. His eldest son succeeds him and becomes Earl Lastname. Who, then, becomes the Dowager Countess? The mother of the new earl? Or the widow, the fourth wife?

[Madame Royale]

Originally Posted by branchg

This so-called House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg has never existed as the senior Danish line is the House of Oldenburg, which currently reigns. The cadet line is "of Greece & Denmark" and that's it.

The House of Oldenburg reigned until 1863 when King Frederik VII, died childless.

The reigning House of Denmark is now the House of Glücksborg.

[Tsar bobo Iv]

Originally Posted by ladongas

Assume an earl has several ex-wives. Each of them is Firstname, Countess of Lastname. The earl dies. His eldest son succeeds him and becomes Earl Lastname. Who, then, becomes the Dowager Countess? The mother of the new earl? Or the widow, the fourth wife?

i think it would be the widow since she was the last wife

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by ladongas

Assume an earl has several ex-wives. Each of them is Firstname, Countess of Lastname. The earl dies. His eldest son succeeds him and becomes Earl Lastname. Who, then, becomes the Dowager Countess? The mother of the new earl? Or the widow, the fourth wife?

While the former wives of the Earl would indeed be known as Name, Countess of "Lastname", the current wife of the Earl would be The Countess of Lastname.
When the Earl dies, the Dowager Countess will be the wife he was married to at the time of his death. The mother of his heir (and the new Count) will remain Name, Countess of "Lastname", unless and until she remarries.

[ladongas]

Originally Posted by Artemisia

While the former wives of the Earl would indeed be known as Name, Countess of "Lastname", the current wife of the Earl would be The Countess of Lastname.
When the Earl dies, the Dowager Countess will be the wife he was married to at the time of his death. The mother of his heir (and the new Count) will remain Name, Countess of "Lastname", unless and until she remarries.

Thanks, that is sort of what I thought. Of course, I certainly wasn't thinking of any particular earl!

[Tsar bobo Iv]

why don't they refer to Kate, Diana,and, Sarah by the name of Windsor instead of Middleton Spencer and Ferguson

[Lumutqueen]

Well mainly because royals don't use windsor as their surname, they are The Duchess of Cambridge or in Diana's case she was The Princess Of Wales. People know them by their surnames because many people are confused by titles.

[Archduchess Zelia]

And also because basically everyone knows who "Kate Middleton" is as compared to "the Duchess of Cambridge".

[Royal Smurfness]

Prince Andrew & Sarah Ferguson have two daughters, both carry the title Princess.
Prince Edward and his wife have a daughter too, but she is just a Lady.
Why is that so?