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  #1221  
Old 05-31-2012, 02:30 AM
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I agree - there is no way that the title Duke of Windsor will be resurrected during the present reign or then next one - both The Queen, who lived through it, and Charles have been raised by the Queen Mum and would have been instilled with how the Abdication killed her husband.
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  #1222  
Old 05-31-2012, 03:50 AM
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I don't get the feeling it's still a sore point for many in Britain. Those who were adults at the time are all but dead and their children are themselves ageing and passing on so it's really only those who have some sense of sentimental attatchment to the period.

With each generation comes a natural and expected personal indifference to what was experienced at that time (A political crises it was, but it wasn't war afterall and the institution remained well guarded) as today's generations know know different to the current line and system. That's entirely normal.

The title itself is quite charming and what a shame it is that it is unlikely to be granted again given the nature of it's initital creation.

God bless Her late Majesty Queen Elizabeth, but it wasn't so much the abdication that killed George VI, but poor health exacerbated by heavy smoking which no doubt lead to the formation of lung cancer and the development of Arteriosclerosis. She needed to rationalise his death and naturally the abdication was, in her mind, the cause. Stress would not have aided his health, but it was not the cause of his death. That alone rested with the King's own lifestyle choices.

The conflict which became WWII was not anticipated, let alone a certainty, at the time of George's succession (infact it was another two years before the military was called to arms), thus the Queen Mother's suggestion that it was the abdication which killed her husband is most certainly irrational.
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  #1223  
Old 05-31-2012, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
...when William became King, would have been Queen Mother.
I'm sorry to contradict you:
There is no official title 'The Queen Mother':

Queen Elisabeth was to be named 'The Queen Mother' because she has the same name as her Daughter Queen Elisabeth II - it would have been confusing to have two 'Queen Elisabeth' at the same time.

See Queen Mary - she was known as Queen Mary also after the death of her husband King George .. as there was no way of confusing her with the wife of her son - with Queen Elisabeth.

Diana would have been known as Queen Diana (as Widow of a King Charles), if William had come to the throne after his father. In the event of Charles death before the death of his mother, as the Widow of the Prince of Wales, she would be known as the Dowager Princess of Wales.

A divorced Diana had no right to any other title than that she had after the divorce; no change there.
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  #1224  
Old 05-31-2012, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Nice Nofret View Post
I'm sorry to contradict you:
There is no official title 'The Queen Mother'.
I'm afraid that is incorrect. There is a title and position of a Queen Mother in most European Monarchies, including the United Kingdom.
I suggest you read this Wikipedia entry for more details.

In Britain, there can be four types of Queens:
- Queen Regnant (the Monarch)
- Queen Consort (wife of the reigning Monarch)
- Queen Dowager (a widowed Queen Consort)
- Queen Mother (a widowed Queen Consort whose child is the reigning Monarch)

Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother was Queen Consort for the duration of George VI's reign, and a Queen Dowager and Queen Mother immediately upon his death and their daughter's accession to the Throne.


Quote:
Queen Elisabeth was to be named 'The Queen Mother' because she has the same name as her Daughter Queen Elisabeth II - it would have been confusing to have two 'Queen Elisabeth' at the same time.
That is exactly what I said in my post.
Traditionally, different types of Queens in Britain are known as simply "Queen Name" (without the addition of Mother, Dowager, Consort, or Regnant). However, Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother was indeed specifically known as "The Queen Mother" since she and her daughter shared the same first name; it would have otherwise been confusing to have two Queens Elizabeth.

Quote:
See Queen Mary - she was known as Queen Mary also after the death of her husband King George .. as there was no way of confusing her with the wife of her son - with Queen Elisabeth.
Queen Mary continued to be known simply as Queen Mary because, as already mentioned, "Mother" is not commonly used. However, legally she was Queen Mother during the reigns of Edward VIII and George VI, and Queen Dowager during the reign of Queen Elizabeth II. Similarly, Queen Alexandra was Queen Mother during the reign of George V.

Quote:
Diana would have been known as Queen Diana (as Widow of a King Charles), if William had come to the throne after his father. In the event of Charles death before the death of his mother, as the Widow of the Prince of Wales, she would be known as the Dowager Princess of Wales.
I do not contest that; in fact, I said just that in my post as well.
If Charles and Diana hadn't divorced, she would have been Charles' Queen Consort (known simply as Queen Diana) upon his accession to the Throne. When William succeeded his father, she would have become The Queen Mother (although again, she would simply be known as Queen Diana).

Quote:
A divorced Diana had no right to any other title than that she had after the divorce; no change there.
Again, my post did not contradict that statement in any shape or form.
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  #1225  
Old 05-31-2012, 10:58 AM
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I dislike nagging, but posters really should read 5 or 6 posts before they post to see if they are replicating previous posts.

I don't think the Windsor dukedom will ever be used again. I hope it is never used again. The abdication was horrible for the RF and for the government. He let down his people. Yes, he is being slowly and surely covered by the mists of time, but I don't think the dukedom will ever be used again, as it is at the Monarch's will and it will be a very long time before the House changes from Windsor to something else.

I thought the Queen Mum was called that because she didn't want to be the "Dowager" anything. Is this a casual title or "in stone" title?
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  #1226  
Old 05-31-2012, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by KittyAtlanta View Post
I thought the Queen Mum was called that because she didn't want to be the "Dowager" anything. Is this a casual title or "in stone" title?
Queen Mother is an official title and the mother of the current Queen automatically became one upon the death of her husband and her daughter's accession to the Throne. If Queen Elizabeth II predeceased her mother, then Queen Elizabeth (the Queen Mother) would have become Queen Dowager since she would then only be grandmother - and not mother - of the Monarch. Similarly, Queen Mary was a Queen Mother for the duration of Edward VIII and George VI's reigns, but became Queen Dowager when her granddaughter became Queen.

If the two Queens didn't share the same name, it is highly unlikely Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother would ever be known as "Queen Mother" - just Queen Elizabeth, as is the custom. I suppose Queen Elizabeth could have been known as Queen Dowager too, but given the choice of "Queen Dowager" and "Queen Mother", I would have chosen the latter as well.
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  #1227  
Old 05-31-2012, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
If the two Queens didn't share the same name, it is highly unlikely Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother would ever be known as "Queen Mother" - just Queen Elizabeth, as is the custom. I suppose Queen Elizabeth could have been known as Queen Dowager too, but given the choice of "Queen Dowager" and "Queen Mother", I would have chosen the latter as well.
I know from the example of the Habsburg dynasty, that they used in one case the styles of "Empress", "Empress Dowager" and "Empress Mother" on order of the emperor to be able to differenciate between all those "empresses". In 1853 Emperor Franz Joseph I. married Elisabeth Duchess in Bavaria. She became his "Empress" as "The Empress of Austria". His own mother was inofficially called the "Empress Mother" but as she never was an empress herself, this name was not used on documents. Instead "HM, The Empress Mother of Austria" was in fact Karoline Auguste (born a princess of Bavaria and half-sister to Franz Joseph's mother, The Archduchess Sophie) who herself never was the mother of an emperor but just the step-mother of emperor Ferdinand I and surviving fourth wife of emperor Franz II. She was granted the title courtesy of her step-son when he became emperor to show her his respect and love. She lived till 1873. Little did emperor Ferdinand I. know that he would abdicate in 1948 in favour of his nephew. And that he would keep his title of emperor till his death in 1875, thus letting his wife Maria-Anna be his empress. So at 1870 time Austria had:
- HM The Empress Mother (step-grandmother of The Emperor)
- HM The Empress Maria-Anna (aunt of The Emperor)
- HM The Empress (Elisabeth) (wife of THe Emperor)
- HIRH The Archduchess Sophie (mothe rof the Emperor, called internally the Imperial Mother).

On his uncle Ferdinand's death Franz Joseph granted the title of HM THe Empress Dowager to Ferdinand's widow Maria-Anna. The title of The Empress Mother had fallen in abeyance due to Empress Karoline Augustes' death. Still he could not grand that title to his own mother because she had died before her stepsister in 1872...

Complicated, isn't it?
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  #1228  
Old 05-31-2012, 11:54 AM
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Complicated, but very interesting. I'm not very familiar with Austrian titles and styles system, so thanks for this!

In 1952, Britian had a situation similar to Austria in 1870: from the moment of Queen Elizabeth's accession to the Throne in 1952 and until Queen Mary's death in 1953, Britain had three Queens:
- Queen Elizabeth II (the Queen Regnant)
- Queen Elizabeth (the Queen Mother)
- Queen Mary (the Queen Dowager)

And another similar case in 1490's. After Henry Tudor ascended to the Throne, there were two Queens and a king's mother.
- Queen Elizabeth of York (Henry VII's wife)
- Queen Elizabeth Woodville (Elizabeth of York's mother and the Queen Dowager as widow of Edward IV)
- Lady Margaret Beaufort (Henry VII's mother, informally known as My Lady The King's Mother)
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  #1229  
Old 05-31-2012, 02:00 PM
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The mothers of all the current set of European Monarchs are now deceased,Belgium is the only present Monarchy in Europe with 2 Queens .

Queen Paola,Queen Consort to Albert II
Queen Fabiola,Queen Dowager.
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  #1230  
Old 05-31-2012, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
I don't see anybody being the Duke and Duchess of Windsor ever again. That title was created for Edward VIII when he abdicated the throne and is still a rather sore spot still in British history.
The only instance I would have predicted Duke and Duchess of Windsor title to be used would have been if Charles had not been allowed to retain his place in the order when he wanted to marry Camilla. Had he been required to relinquish his spot to marry her and gone off with her to paint watercolors in Tuscany or whatever, I could have seen them being the 2nd Duke and Duchess of Windsor, which would have been historically appropriate. Also would have caused less constitutional headaches, IMHO.
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  #1231  
Old 05-31-2012, 09:41 PM
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Had he been required to relinquish his spot to marry her and gone off with her to paint watercolors in Tuscany
.lol..Oh scooter! Your dry, wry sense of humour gives me quite the chuckle.
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  #1232  
Old 05-31-2012, 10:03 PM
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I have a book published during George VI's reign titled "The Queen Mother", it's about Queen Mary. So the title was indeed out there!

It was bought by a friend who's a QEQM fan, got it home and opened it up and disappointedly decided it would do for Lulu!

And QEQM's biography quoted her as describing the title as "ghastly" or some-such, so it doesn't sound like it was necessarily her choice!
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  #1233  
Old 05-31-2012, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by scooter
The only instance I would have predicted Duke and Duchess of Windsor title to be used would have been if Charles had not been allowed to retain his place in the order when he wanted to marry Camilla. .
I suspect not even Camilla could have induced Charles to forfeit the throne, but as far as any future use of the Windsor title is concerned I'd say you're bang on!

The title was a brand spanking new invention to solve the dilemma of what the hell do we do with an ex-king. Not in the same league to be returned to the pool of potential royal dukedoms.
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Old 06-01-2012, 08:48 AM
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Anyone that would suggest Charles going off into the sunset and painting in Tuscany is a person that knows Charles pretty well. I've read in several places that he fell in love with Italy and would love to happily sit and paint there and farm.

I agree though that hell would have to freeze over first (and I don't mean Hell, Michigan which does freeze over) before Charles would even think of relinquishing the duty he has prepared for all of his life. He's been perhaps the hardest working Prince of Wales ever and I do expect him to exert the same passion being King.
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  #1235  
Old 06-01-2012, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by purple_Lulu View Post
And QEQM's biography quoted her as describing the title as "ghastly" or some-such, so it doesn't sound like it was necessarily her choice!
I've never found the late Queen Mothers' thoughts on matters related to the Duke and Duchess to be of any real interest (personally) as all her opinions were emotive by nature so anything she had to say would have hardly come as a surprise. There was no subjective thought lended to 'the' Windsor's and I of course can empathise as to why that was, but it hardly makes for an accurate portrayal of events. Just a woman's biased dislike that grew and flourished in all aspects of opinion for the majority of her life.

The same can be said of the late Duchess, who's mutual disliking of the Queen Mother was well rumoured and in her own way, confirmed.

Both women were stubborn and proud. In a sense, quite smiliar in various ways.
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  #1236  
Old 06-01-2012, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Anyone that would suggest Charles going off into the sunset and painting in Tuscany is a person that knows Charles pretty well. I've read in several places that he fell in love with Italy and would love to happily sit and paint there and farm.

I agree though that hell would have to freeze over first (and I don't mean Hell, Michigan which does freeze over) before Charles would even think of relinquishing the duty he has prepared for all of his life. He's been perhaps the hardest working Prince of Wales ever and I do expect him to exert the same passion being King.

Couldn't agree more - Charles has worked consistently at being the best prepared heir to the throne in history and will continue with that work ethic once he is king, of that I have no doubt.
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Old 06-11-2012, 02:03 PM
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Sorry for my next two stupid questions:

1. The further children of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge will be styled as HRH Prince/ss of Cambridge?

2. Does in the United Kingdom a male pendant to Queen Mother exist? If HM Queen Elizabeth dies and is survived by her husband, will The Duke of Edinburgh be "King Father"?

Thank you!
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  #1238  
Old 06-11-2012, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by principessa View Post
Sorry for my next two stupid questions:

1. The further children of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge will be styled as HRH Prince/ss of Cambridge?

2. Does in the United Kingdom a male pendant to Queen Mother exist? If HM Queen Elizabeth dies and is survived by her husband, will The Duke of Edinburgh be "King Father"?

Thank you!
Your questions are in no way stupid; this forum is to share opinions and knowledge.

1. If Prince William's children are born during the lifetime of Queen Elizabeth, then only the eldest son will automatically be a Royal Highness and a Prince.
According to Letters Patent 1917, the title of a Prince/Princess and the style of Royal Highness is limited to male-line grandchildren of the Monarch, and the eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales. Thus, Prince William's eldest son will be automatically be a Prince and a Royal Highness, whereas the younger children will be styled as younger children of a Duke - Lords and Ladies.
However, it is extremely likely that as soon as the Duchess of Cambridge's first pregnancy is announced, the Queen will issue Letters Patent granting all future children of the couple the style of Royal Highness and title of Princes and Princesses. It was done before; when Prince Charles and Princess Anne were born, they were not entitled to the style of Royal Highness, or title of a Prince and Princess (since they were only female-line grandchildren of the Monarch); to avoid any unnecessary complication, George VI issued Letters Patent granting any children of Princess Elizabeth and the Duke of Edinburgh those styles and titles.

If William's children are born during the reign of King Charles, they will be Princes and Princesses of the United Kingdom with the style of Royal Highnesses as male-line grandchildren of the Monarch. The same goes for Prince Harry's children.


2. The title "King Father" doesn't exist in the United Kingdom, or any of the European Monarchies.
If the Duke outlives the Queen, his styles and titles will remain exactly the same as they are now - His Royal Highness The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh. His styles and titles are are independent of his wives and not connected to her life or reign. During the reign of King Charles, he will be the king's father, but not the King Father since the title never existed. Whereas different types of Queens exist (Queen Regnant, Queen Consort, Queen Mother, Queen Dowager), in the United Kingdom, the title "King" can only belong to the Monarch - and no one else. Prince Philip isn't the Monarch - just the Monarch's consort; as such he cannot bear the title in any shape or form.
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  #1239  
Old 06-11-2012, 02:12 PM
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Sorry for my next two stupid questions:

1. The further children of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge will be styled as HRH Prince/ss of Cambridge?
Their first son with be an HRH, any children after that born when HM is still Queen will only be Lord and Lady. The other children will be elevated to HRH when Charles becomes King.

Quote:
Originally Posted by principessa View Post
2. Does in the United Kingdom a male pendant to Queen Mother exist? If HM Queen Elizabeth dies and is survived by her husband, will The Duke of Edinburgh be "King Father"?

Thank you!
No King Father title.
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  #1240  
Old 06-11-2012, 02:26 PM
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Despite the fact that there is no precedent for it is there any chance that Phillip would be called Prince Father? This title has been used in some countries although I realize it hasn't been used in England.
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