The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Reigning Houses > British Royals

Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #1221  
Old 05-30-2012, 04:57 AM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 9,321
The point is that you don't use both HRH Prince and the courtesy title of your father.

If James was using HRH Prince James he wouldn't be using the Viscount Severn title as well.

Because his parents, with The Queen's consent, have decided not to have their children known by the HRH Prince/Princess titles they are then styled from their father's titles.

If you go back to the last male-line grandchildren of Royal Dukes - Elizabeth and Margaret of York, William and Richard of Gloucester and Edward, Michael and Alexandra of Kent they were never referred to in relation to their father's Dukedoms but as HRH Prince/Princess of York, Gloucester and Kent. They were never known as Lady Elizabeth, Lady Margaret, Earl of Ulster, Lord Richard, Earl of St Andrews, Lord Michael or Lady Alexandra as well as HRH Prince/Princess.

Because they were HRH Prince/Princesses that is the only title they used.

Louise and James are different because the decision has been made to not use the royal titles. Given that the next question was - were they going to take the normal titles of the children of an Earl or were they going to not use titles at all? As the children of an Earl they use the styles of Viscount Severn and Lady Louise.

Whether the announcement in 1999 effectively overrode the 1917 LPs - as some people believe - or whether they are still Prince James and Princess Louise but the lower titles taken from their father only - is one open to debate and I am not going to get involved in a debate on that issue here.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #1222  
Old 05-30-2012, 07:46 AM
Molly2101's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: England, United Kingdom
Posts: 2,912
As there was no LP issued at the time of Edward and Sophie's marriage, does it mean Louise and James could choose to be HRH on their 18th birthday? I highly doubt they would if this was an option, but I am just curious. I can understand the Wessex's decision to shield their children from the life of a Royal, but at the same time I am a bit disappointed that we cannot call them Princess Louise and Prince James as it is their legal title. Lady Louise Windsor does sound nice, especially when Mountbatten-Windsor is used, but I think Princess Louise sounds much nicer.
__________________

__________________
"I am yours, you are mine, of that be sure. You are locked in my heart, the little key is lost and now you must stay there forever."
Written by Princess Alix of Hesse and by Rhine in the diary of her fiance, Tsarevich Nicholas.
Reply With Quote
  #1223  
Old 05-30-2012, 09:01 AM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Molly2101 View Post
As there was no LP issued at the time of Edward and Sophie's marriage, does it mean Louise and James could choose to be HRH on their 18th birthday? I highly doubt they would if this was an option, but I am just curious. I can understand the Wessex's decision to shield their children from the life of a Royal, but at the same time I am a bit disappointed that we cannot call them Princess Louise and Prince James as it is their legal title. Lady Louise Windsor does sound nice, especially when Mountbatten-Windsor is used, but I think Princess Louise sounds much nicer.
Letters Patent of 1917 are still in force which means that James and Louise are legally Prince and Princess of the United Kingdom with the style of Royal Highness. Thus, Prince Edward's children do have the legal option to enjoy their rightful styles and titles once they reach the age of majority.

There are also some experts who believe that the press release issued by the Buckingham Palace in 1999 effectively deprived them of the title; they claim that the release was effectively expression of the Sovereign's will which is, in matters of royal titles and styles, law.

Most experts, however, believe that a mere press release doesn't have enough force to override a Letter Patent and that Prince Edward's children enjoy all the styles and titles they are entitled to as male-line grandchildren of the Monarch.
Reply With Quote
  #1224  
Old 05-30-2012, 02:42 PM
Tsar bobo Iv's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: knoxville, United States
Posts: 249
do any of u think lady louise r her brother will used the title of duke and duchess of windsor
also do you think if diana was still alive her title would have been king mother
Reply With Quote
  #1225  
Old 05-30-2012, 02:45 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 8
I really only think Elizabeth got that title due to the identical names, and the same title as HM the Queen..
Reply With Quote
  #1226  
Old 05-30-2012, 03:00 PM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsar bobo Iv View Post
do any of u think lady louise r her brother will used the title of duke and duchess of windsor
James and Louise are siblings, so they couldn't be Duke and Duchess of Windsor together.
It is extremely unlikely the Queen will give James a separate title of his own, independent of the one he is to inherit from his father, and it's virtually impossible in case of Louise. Thus, James will one day be the Earl of Wessex and Louise will still be Lady Louise. If Prince Edward inherits the Duchy of Edinburgh, as expected, James will in due course become the Duke of Edinburgh. Read this thread - The future of the Duke of Edinburgh title - for more information on that.

Moreover, it is highly unlikely any British Royal will in future be given the title of "Duke of Windsor" since it bears some extremely unpleasant memories the royals would rather forget.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsar bobo Iv View Post
also do you think if diana was still alive her title would have been king mother
I'm afraid not.
In Britain, there is, and has never been the title "King Mother".
If Charles and Diana hadn't divorced, and Diana was alive at the time of Charles' accession to the Throne, she would have become Queen Consort and when William became King, would have been Queen Mother. However, the moment Charles and Diana divorced, Diana lost the chance to become the Queen Mother; that title belongs to the mother of the King who had been a Queen Consort and Queen Dowager (in other words, the wife and widow of the previous Monarch).
If Diana were alive at the time of William's accession, she would be the king's mother, but not the Queen Mother.

Similarly, Queen Victoria's mother - Princess Victoria of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld - was the queen's mother, but never - The Queen Mother since her husband had never been King.

Quote:
Originally Posted by major darling View Post
I really only think Elizabeth got that title due to the identical names, and the same title as HM the Queen..
More or less.
Queen Elizabeth (consort of George VI) became The Queen Mother the moment her daughter ascended to the Throne. That title automatically belongs to the widow of the King (Queen Dowager) who is also mother of the current Monarch. However, traditionally the different types of Queens - Queen Regnant (the Monarch), Queen Consort (the Monarch's wife), Queen Dowager (the Monarch's widow), and Queen Mother (the Monarch's widow and mother of the current Monarch) are only known as "Queen Name", without the addition of Consort, Regnant, Dowager or Mother.

Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother was indeed specifically known as "The Queen Mother" since she and her daughter shared the same first name; it would have otherwise been uncomfortable and confusing to have two Queens Elizabeth.
Reply With Quote
  #1227  
Old 05-30-2012, 03:14 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsar bobo Iv View Post
do any of u think lady louise r her brother will used the title of duke and duchess of windsor
Why would they? It was already stated when Edward & Sophie married and he was created Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn that when the current Duke of Edinburgh dies and the title eventually merges with the crown that Edward will be created Duke of Edinburgh.
There is a thread on this already which explains all the ins and outs of what can happen with the Edinburgh title.
I cannot envision the Duke of Windsor being recreated any time soon.
Reply With Quote
  #1228  
Old 05-30-2012, 11:57 PM
Osipi's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 4,697
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsar bobo Iv View Post
do any of u think lady louise r her brother will used the title of duke and duchess of windsor
I don't see anybody being the Duke and Duchess of Windsor ever again. That title was created for Edward VIII when he abdicated the throne and is still a rather sore spot still in British history.
Reply With Quote
  #1229  
Old 05-31-2012, 02:30 AM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 9,321
I agree - there is no way that the title Duke of Windsor will be resurrected during the present reign or then next one - both The Queen, who lived through it, and Charles have been raised by the Queen Mum and would have been instilled with how the Abdication killed her husband.
Reply With Quote
  #1230  
Old 05-31-2012, 03:50 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Melbourne & Sydney, Australia
Posts: 3,983
I don't get the feeling it's still a sore point for many in Britain. Those who were adults at the time are all but dead and their children are themselves ageing and passing on so it's really only those who have some sense of sentimental attatchment to the period.

With each generation comes a natural and expected personal indifference to what was experienced at that time (A political crises it was, but it wasn't war afterall and the institution remained well guarded) as today's generations know know different to the current line and system. That's entirely normal.

The title itself is quite charming and what a shame it is that it is unlikely to be granted again given the nature of it's initital creation.

God bless Her late Majesty Queen Elizabeth, but it wasn't so much the abdication that killed George VI, but poor health exacerbated by heavy smoking which no doubt lead to the formation of lung cancer and the development of Arteriosclerosis. She needed to rationalise his death and naturally the abdication was, in her mind, the cause. Stress would not have aided his health, but it was not the cause of his death. That alone rested with the King's own lifestyle choices.

The conflict which became WWII was not anticipated, let alone a certainty, at the time of George's succession (infact it was another two years before the military was called to arms), thus the Queen Mother's suggestion that it was the abdication which killed her husband is most certainly irrational.
__________________

"Dressing is a way of life" - Monsieur Saint Laurent
Reply With Quote
  #1231  
Old 05-31-2012, 10:27 AM
Nice Nofret's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Zürich, Switzerland
Posts: 451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
...when William became King, would have been Queen Mother.
I'm sorry to contradict you:
There is no official title 'The Queen Mother':

Queen Elisabeth was to be named 'The Queen Mother' because she has the same name as her Daughter Queen Elisabeth II - it would have been confusing to have two 'Queen Elisabeth' at the same time.

See Queen Mary - she was known as Queen Mary also after the death of her husband King George .. as there was no way of confusing her with the wife of her son - with Queen Elisabeth.

Diana would have been known as Queen Diana (as Widow of a King Charles), if William had come to the throne after his father. In the event of Charles death before the death of his mother, as the Widow of the Prince of Wales, she would be known as the Dowager Princess of Wales.

A divorced Diana had no right to any other title than that she had after the divorce; no change there.
Reply With Quote
  #1232  
Old 05-31-2012, 10:49 AM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nice Nofret View Post
I'm sorry to contradict you:
There is no official title 'The Queen Mother'.
I'm afraid that is incorrect. There is a title and position of a Queen Mother in most European Monarchies, including the United Kingdom.
I suggest you read this Wikipedia entry for more details.

In Britain, there can be four types of Queens:
- Queen Regnant (the Monarch)
- Queen Consort (wife of the reigning Monarch)
- Queen Dowager (a widowed Queen Consort)
- Queen Mother (a widowed Queen Consort whose child is the reigning Monarch)

Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother was Queen Consort for the duration of George VI's reign, and a Queen Dowager and Queen Mother immediately upon his death and their daughter's accession to the Throne.


Quote:
Queen Elisabeth was to be named 'The Queen Mother' because she has the same name as her Daughter Queen Elisabeth II - it would have been confusing to have two 'Queen Elisabeth' at the same time.
That is exactly what I said in my post.
Traditionally, different types of Queens in Britain are known as simply "Queen Name" (without the addition of Mother, Dowager, Consort, or Regnant). However, Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother was indeed specifically known as "The Queen Mother" since she and her daughter shared the same first name; it would have otherwise been confusing to have two Queens Elizabeth.

Quote:
See Queen Mary - she was known as Queen Mary also after the death of her husband King George .. as there was no way of confusing her with the wife of her son - with Queen Elisabeth.
Queen Mary continued to be known simply as Queen Mary because, as already mentioned, "Mother" is not commonly used. However, legally she was Queen Mother during the reigns of Edward VIII and George VI, and Queen Dowager during the reign of Queen Elizabeth II. Similarly, Queen Alexandra was Queen Mother during the reign of George V.

Quote:
Diana would have been known as Queen Diana (as Widow of a King Charles), if William had come to the throne after his father. In the event of Charles death before the death of his mother, as the Widow of the Prince of Wales, she would be known as the Dowager Princess of Wales.
I do not contest that; in fact, I said just that in my post as well.
If Charles and Diana hadn't divorced, she would have been Charles' Queen Consort (known simply as Queen Diana) upon his accession to the Throne. When William succeeded his father, she would have become The Queen Mother (although again, she would simply be known as Queen Diana).

Quote:
A divorced Diana had no right to any other title than that she had after the divorce; no change there.
Again, my post did not contradict that statement in any shape or form.
Reply With Quote
  #1233  
Old 05-31-2012, 10:58 AM
KittyAtlanta's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: KittyLand Junction, United States
Posts: 3,122
I dislike nagging, but posters really should read 5 or 6 posts before they post to see if they are replicating previous posts.

I don't think the Windsor dukedom will ever be used again. I hope it is never used again. The abdication was horrible for the RF and for the government. He let down his people. Yes, he is being slowly and surely covered by the mists of time, but I don't think the dukedom will ever be used again, as it is at the Monarch's will and it will be a very long time before the House changes from Windsor to something else.

I thought the Queen Mum was called that because she didn't want to be the "Dowager" anything. Is this a casual title or "in stone" title?
Reply With Quote
  #1234  
Old 05-31-2012, 11:08 AM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,424
Quote:
Originally Posted by KittyAtlanta View Post
I thought the Queen Mum was called that because she didn't want to be the "Dowager" anything. Is this a casual title or "in stone" title?
Queen Mother is an official title and the mother of the current Queen automatically became one upon the death of her husband and her daughter's accession to the Throne. If Queen Elizabeth II predeceased her mother, then Queen Elizabeth (the Queen Mother) would have become Queen Dowager since she would then only be grandmother - and not mother - of the Monarch. Similarly, Queen Mary was a Queen Mother for the duration of Edward VIII and George VI's reigns, but became Queen Dowager when her granddaughter became Queen.

If the two Queens didn't share the same name, it is highly unlikely Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother would ever be known as "Queen Mother" - just Queen Elizabeth, as is the custom. I suppose Queen Elizabeth could have been known as Queen Dowager too, but given the choice of "Queen Dowager" and "Queen Mother", I would have chosen the latter as well.
Reply With Quote
  #1235  
Old 05-31-2012, 11:45 AM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: alpine village, Germany
Posts: 1,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
If the two Queens didn't share the same name, it is highly unlikely Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother would ever be known as "Queen Mother" - just Queen Elizabeth, as is the custom. I suppose Queen Elizabeth could have been known as Queen Dowager too, but given the choice of "Queen Dowager" and "Queen Mother", I would have chosen the latter as well.
I know from the example of the Habsburg dynasty, that they used in one case the styles of "Empress", "Empress Dowager" and "Empress Mother" on order of the emperor to be able to differenciate between all those "empresses". In 1853 Emperor Franz Joseph I. married Elisabeth Duchess in Bavaria. She became his "Empress" as "The Empress of Austria". His own mother was inofficially called the "Empress Mother" but as she never was an empress herself, this name was not used on documents. Instead "HM, The Empress Mother of Austria" was in fact Karoline Auguste (born a princess of Bavaria and half-sister to Franz Joseph's mother, The Archduchess Sophie) who herself never was the mother of an emperor but just the step-mother of emperor Ferdinand I and surviving fourth wife of emperor Franz II. She was granted the title courtesy of her step-son when he became emperor to show her his respect and love. She lived till 1873. Little did emperor Ferdinand I. know that he would abdicate in 1948 in favour of his nephew. And that he would keep his title of emperor till his death in 1875, thus letting his wife Maria-Anna be his empress. So at 1870 time Austria had:
- HM The Empress Mother (step-grandmother of The Emperor)
- HM The Empress Maria-Anna (aunt of The Emperor)
- HM The Empress (Elisabeth) (wife of THe Emperor)
- HIRH The Archduchess Sophie (mothe rof the Emperor, called internally the Imperial Mother).

On his uncle Ferdinand's death Franz Joseph granted the title of HM THe Empress Dowager to Ferdinand's widow Maria-Anna. The title of The Empress Mother had fallen in abeyance due to Empress Karoline Augustes' death. Still he could not grand that title to his own mother because she had died before her stepsister in 1872...

Complicated, isn't it?
Reply With Quote
  #1236  
Old 05-31-2012, 11:54 AM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,424
Complicated, but very interesting. I'm not very familiar with Austrian titles and styles system, so thanks for this!

In 1952, Britian had a situation similar to Austria in 1870: from the moment of Queen Elizabeth's accession to the Throne in 1952 and until Queen Mary's death in 1953, Britain had three Queens:
- Queen Elizabeth II (the Queen Regnant)
- Queen Elizabeth (the Queen Mother)
- Queen Mary (the Queen Dowager)

And another similar case in 1490's. After Henry Tudor ascended to the Throne, there were two Queens and a king's mother.
- Queen Elizabeth of York (Henry VII's wife)
- Queen Elizabeth Woodville (Elizabeth of York's mother and the Queen Dowager as widow of Edward IV)
- Lady Margaret Beaufort (Henry VII's mother, informally known as My Lady The King's Mother)
Reply With Quote
  #1237  
Old 05-31-2012, 02:00 PM
An Ard Ri's Avatar
Super Moderator
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Westmeath, Ireland
Posts: 11,410
The mothers of all the current set of European Monarchs are now deceased,Belgium is the only present Monarchy in Europe with 2 Queens .

Queen Paola,Queen Consort to Albert II
Queen Fabiola,Queen Dowager.
Reply With Quote
  #1238  
Old 05-31-2012, 09:33 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: katonah, United States
Posts: 2,582
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
I don't see anybody being the Duke and Duchess of Windsor ever again. That title was created for Edward VIII when he abdicated the throne and is still a rather sore spot still in British history.
The only instance I would have predicted Duke and Duchess of Windsor title to be used would have been if Charles had not been allowed to retain his place in the order when he wanted to marry Camilla. Had he been required to relinquish his spot to marry her and gone off with her to paint watercolors in Tuscany or whatever, I could have seen them being the 2nd Duke and Duchess of Windsor, which would have been historically appropriate. Also would have caused less constitutional headaches, IMHO.
Reply With Quote
  #1239  
Old 05-31-2012, 09:41 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Melbourne & Sydney, Australia
Posts: 3,983
Quote:
Had he been required to relinquish his spot to marry her and gone off with her to paint watercolors in Tuscany
.lol..Oh scooter! Your dry, wry sense of humour gives me quite the chuckle.
__________________

"Dressing is a way of life" - Monsieur Saint Laurent
Reply With Quote
  #1240  
Old 05-31-2012, 10:03 PM
purple_Lulu's Avatar
Gentry
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 68
I have a book published during George VI's reign titled "The Queen Mother", it's about Queen Mary. So the title was indeed out there!

It was bought by a friend who's a QEQM fan, got it home and opened it up and disappointedly decided it would do for Lulu!

And QEQM's biography quoted her as describing the title as "ghastly" or some-such, so it doesn't sound like it was necessarily her choice!
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
british royal family, consort, spouse, styles and titles


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Titles and Styles of Harry, his Future Wife and Children Aussie Princess Prince Harry and Prince William 1115 01-14-2015 02:50 PM
Questions About [non-British] Styles and Titles Lord Sosnowitz Royal Ceremony and Protocol 729 10-09-2014 04:24 PM
Diana's Styles and Titles florawindsor Diana, Princess of Wales (1961-1997) 573 11-14-2013 10:59 AM
Styles and Titles Nahla10 Ruling Family of Dubai 36 08-08-2013 12:05 PM
Abdication Beatrix and Inauguration WA: Titles, Names, Succession, Precedence Princess Robijn King Willem-Alexander, Queen Máxima and family 67 05-24-2013 03:14 PM




Popular Tags
belgium best outfit brussels carl philip chris o'neill crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess catharina-amalia crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria current events death fashion fashion poll funeral germany hereditary grand duchess stéphanie hereditary grand duke guillaume infanta sofia jordan king carl xvi gustav king felipe king felipe vi king harald king philippe king willem-alexander letizia maxima nobility official visit photo session picture of the week president gauck president hollande prince carl philip prince daniel prince frederik princess aimee princess alexia (2005 -) princess beatrix princess catharina-amalia princess claire princess madeleine princess marie princess mary princess mette-marit queen elizabeth ii queen fabiola queen letizia queen letizia fashion queen letizia style queen mathilde queen maxima queen maxima fashion queen maxima style queen paola queen rania queen silvia queen sonja royal fashion sofia hellqvist state visit stockholm sweden the hague tiara victoria wedding willem-alexander


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002-2012 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:47 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2015
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]