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  #1201  
Old 05-23-2012, 04:17 PM
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If I want to write a letter to the Earl of Ulster or the Earl of St. Andrews, how have I do it right?

The Honourable, nothing or what?

Thank you!
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  #1202  
Old 05-23-2012, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by principessa View Post
If I want to write a letter to the Earl of Ulster or the Earl of St. Andrews, how have I do it right?

The Honourable, nothing or what?

Thank you!
Both Earl of St Andrews and Earl of Ulster hold their styles by courtesy, as elder sons of Dukes (their fathers being respectively the Duke of Kent and the Duke of Gloucester). The written form of address to the eldest son of a Duke is "My Lord", or "Lord Ulster/St Andrews". More informally, "Dear Lord Ulster/St Andrews" can be used. The name on the envelope should read The Earl of Ulster/St Andrews.

The form of address "The Right Honourable" in reference to an Earl would have been accurate if the Earls of Ulster and St Andrews had the titles in their own right; since their styles are by courtesy, it wouldn't be a suitable form of address. "Honourable" is used when addressing the daughters and younger sons of Earls, Viscounts, and Barons, as well as the latter's wives.
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  #1203  
Old 05-29-2012, 08:07 PM
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I have a quick question, if Prince Andrew had a son would his son use the title HRH The Earl of Inverness as a courtesy or would he just be HRH Prince X of York?
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  #1204  
Old 05-29-2012, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by king of scotland View Post
I have a quick question, if Prince Andrew had a son would his son use the title HRH The Earl of Inverness as a courtesy or would he just be HRH Prince X of York?
As with all first-born sons of a Peer, he would be entitled to use his father's secondary title as a courtesy style, and would as such be known as The Earl of Inverness. Of course, he would also be a Royal Highness and a British Prince as male-line grandson of the Sovereign.

If Andrew had more than one son, the younger ones would be known as "His Royal Highness Prince Name of York".
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  #1205  
Old 05-29-2012, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
As with all first-born sons of a Peer, he would be entitled to use his father's secondary title as a courtesy style, and would as such be known as The Earl of Inverness. Of course, he would also be a Royal Highness and a British Prince as male-line grandson of the Sovereign.

If Andrew had more than one son, the younger ones would be known as "His Royal Highness Prince Name of York".
Royal Princes in the UK do not use courtesy titles: any son of The Duke of York would be "HRH Prince X of York", just as The Prince of Wales was known as "HRH Prince Charles of Edinburgh" and not "The Earl of Merioneth" from his birth to his mother's accession. The heirs of TRH The Dukes of Gloucester and Kent use their fathers' second titles because they themselves are NOT royal.
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  #1206  
Old 05-29-2012, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by LauraS3514 View Post
Royal Princes in the UK do not use courtesy titles: any son of The Duke of York would be "HRH Prince X of York", just as The Prince of Wales was known as "HRH Prince Charles of Edinburgh" and not "The Earl of Merioneth" from his birth to his mother's accession. The heirs of TRH The Dukes of Gloucester and Kent use their fathers' second titles because they themselves are NOT royal.
Exactly, and HRH Prince Edward of Kent never used the title of Earl of St Andrews and neither HRH Prince William of Gloucester or HRH Prince Richard of Gloucester ever used the title of Earl of Ulster. It is only the non HRH heirs use courtesy titles.
Andrews son would have been known as HRH Prince X of York.
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  #1207  
Old 05-30-2012, 03:25 AM
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Then how come James is known as Viscount Severn? Because he isn't known as Prince James?
As he is royal, he is a prince, but he's known by his father's courtesy title.
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  #1208  
Old 05-30-2012, 03:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumutqueen
Then how come James is known as Viscount Severn? Because he isn't known as Prince James?
As he is royal, he is a prince, but he's known by his father's courtesy title.
It was announced at the time of the Earl & Countess of Wessex's marriage that their children would be styled as those of an earl, not as male-line grandchildren of a monarch (as is actually their right under George V's letters patent.) Hence Viscount Severn's older sister is Lady Louise Windsor (not Princess Louise) and James uses his father's courtesy title.
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  #1209  
Old 05-30-2012, 03:50 AM
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Originally Posted by purple_Lulu View Post
It was announced at the time of the Earl & Countess of Wessex's marriage that their children would be styled as those of an earl, not as male-line grandchildren of a monarch (as is actually their right under George V's letters patent.) Hence Viscount Severn's older sister is Lady Louise Windsor (not Princess Louise) and James uses his father's courtesy title.
I know that.
But James is still a Prince but he's known as Viscount Severn, so he contradicts both points made above.
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  #1210  
Old 05-30-2012, 03:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumutqueen

I know that.
But James is still a Prince but he's known as Viscount Severn, so he contradicts both points made above.
They changed the rules. First time. He's a prince under his great-great-grandpapa's letters patent, but that's not being applied for him or his sister.
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  #1211  
Old 05-30-2012, 04:32 AM
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I suspect that if the Duke of York had married & produced children somewhat later than he actually did, then rather than our HRH Princess Beatrice, HRH Princess Eugenie and notional HRH Prince X, we would now have Lady Beatrice Windsor, Lady Eugenie Windsor and a notional Earl of Inverness.
But them again, I also suspect that the actual York marriage contributed to the subsequent downscaling we've seen demonstrated by the Wessex family, so it's all pure speculation how things might have been other than the actual reality we know.
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  #1212  
Old 05-30-2012, 04:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LauraS3514 View Post
Royal Princes in the UK do not use courtesy titles: any son of The Duke of York would be "HRH Prince X of York", just as The Prince of Wales was known as "HRH Prince Charles of Edinburgh" and not "The Earl of Merioneth" from his birth to his mother's accession. The heirs of TRH The Dukes of Gloucester and Kent use their fathers' second titles because they themselves are NOT royal.
I didn't know that; thank you for sharing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by purple_Lulu View Post
They changed the rules. First time. He's a prince under his great-great-grandpapa's letters patent, but that's not being applied for him or his sister.
They didn't change the rules as such; the Letters Patent 1917 are still very much in force. Edward and Sophie may have chosen their children to be known as children of an Earl (as opposed to Royal Prince), but that doesn't change the fact that both James and Louise are legally Royal Highnesses, Prince and Princess of the United Kingdom. To counter that, new Letters Patent or Royal Proclamations need to be issued - and that hasn't been done so far.
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  #1213  
Old 05-30-2012, 04:57 AM
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The point is that you don't use both HRH Prince and the courtesy title of your father.

If James was using HRH Prince James he wouldn't be using the Viscount Severn title as well.

Because his parents, with The Queen's consent, have decided not to have their children known by the HRH Prince/Princess titles they are then styled from their father's titles.

If you go back to the last male-line grandchildren of Royal Dukes - Elizabeth and Margaret of York, William and Richard of Gloucester and Edward, Michael and Alexandra of Kent they were never referred to in relation to their father's Dukedoms but as HRH Prince/Princess of York, Gloucester and Kent. They were never known as Lady Elizabeth, Lady Margaret, Earl of Ulster, Lord Richard, Earl of St Andrews, Lord Michael or Lady Alexandra as well as HRH Prince/Princess.

Because they were HRH Prince/Princesses that is the only title they used.

Louise and James are different because the decision has been made to not use the royal titles. Given that the next question was - were they going to take the normal titles of the children of an Earl or were they going to not use titles at all? As the children of an Earl they use the styles of Viscount Severn and Lady Louise.

Whether the announcement in 1999 effectively overrode the 1917 LPs - as some people believe - or whether they are still Prince James and Princess Louise but the lower titles taken from their father only - is one open to debate and I am not going to get involved in a debate on that issue here.
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  #1214  
Old 05-30-2012, 07:46 AM
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As there was no LP issued at the time of Edward and Sophie's marriage, does it mean Louise and James could choose to be HRH on their 18th birthday? I highly doubt they would if this was an option, but I am just curious. I can understand the Wessex's decision to shield their children from the life of a Royal, but at the same time I am a bit disappointed that we cannot call them Princess Louise and Prince James as it is their legal title. Lady Louise Windsor does sound nice, especially when Mountbatten-Windsor is used, but I think Princess Louise sounds much nicer.
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  #1215  
Old 05-30-2012, 09:01 AM
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As there was no LP issued at the time of Edward and Sophie's marriage, does it mean Louise and James could choose to be HRH on their 18th birthday? I highly doubt they would if this was an option, but I am just curious. I can understand the Wessex's decision to shield their children from the life of a Royal, but at the same time I am a bit disappointed that we cannot call them Princess Louise and Prince James as it is their legal title. Lady Louise Windsor does sound nice, especially when Mountbatten-Windsor is used, but I think Princess Louise sounds much nicer.
Letters Patent of 1917 are still in force which means that James and Louise are legally Prince and Princess of the United Kingdom with the style of Royal Highness. Thus, Prince Edward's children do have the legal option to enjoy their rightful styles and titles once they reach the age of majority.

There are also some experts who believe that the press release issued by the Buckingham Palace in 1999 effectively deprived them of the title; they claim that the release was effectively expression of the Sovereign's will which is, in matters of royal titles and styles, law.

Most experts, however, believe that a mere press release doesn't have enough force to override a Letter Patent and that Prince Edward's children enjoy all the styles and titles they are entitled to as male-line grandchildren of the Monarch.
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  #1216  
Old 05-30-2012, 02:42 PM
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do any of u think lady louise r her brother will used the title of duke and duchess of windsor
also do you think if diana was still alive her title would have been king mother
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  #1217  
Old 05-30-2012, 02:45 PM
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I really only think Elizabeth got that title due to the identical names, and the same title as HM the Queen..
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  #1218  
Old 05-30-2012, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Tsar bobo Iv View Post
do any of u think lady louise r her brother will used the title of duke and duchess of windsor
James and Louise are siblings, so they couldn't be Duke and Duchess of Windsor together.
It is extremely unlikely the Queen will give James a separate title of his own, independent of the one he is to inherit from his father, and it's virtually impossible in case of Louise. Thus, James will one day be the Earl of Wessex and Louise will still be Lady Louise. If Prince Edward inherits the Duchy of Edinburgh, as expected, James will in due course become the Duke of Edinburgh. Read this thread - The future of the Duke of Edinburgh title - for more information on that.

Moreover, it is highly unlikely any British Royal will in future be given the title of "Duke of Windsor" since it bears some extremely unpleasant memories the royals would rather forget.

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also do you think if diana was still alive her title would have been king mother
I'm afraid not.
In Britain, there is, and has never been the title "King Mother".
If Charles and Diana hadn't divorced, and Diana was alive at the time of Charles' accession to the Throne, she would have become Queen Consort and when William became King, would have been Queen Mother. However, the moment Charles and Diana divorced, Diana lost the chance to become the Queen Mother; that title belongs to the mother of the King who had been a Queen Consort and Queen Dowager (in other words, the wife and widow of the previous Monarch).
If Diana were alive at the time of William's accession, she would be the king's mother, but not the Queen Mother.

Similarly, Queen Victoria's mother - Princess Victoria of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld - was the queen's mother, but never - The Queen Mother since her husband had never been King.

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I really only think Elizabeth got that title due to the identical names, and the same title as HM the Queen..
More or less.
Queen Elizabeth (consort of George VI) became The Queen Mother the moment her daughter ascended to the Throne. That title automatically belongs to the widow of the King (Queen Dowager) who is also mother of the current Monarch. However, traditionally the different types of Queens - Queen Regnant (the Monarch), Queen Consort (the Monarch's wife), Queen Dowager (the Monarch's widow), and Queen Mother (the Monarch's widow and mother of the current Monarch) are only known as "Queen Name", without the addition of Consort, Regnant, Dowager or Mother.

Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother was indeed specifically known as "The Queen Mother" since she and her daughter shared the same first name; it would have otherwise been uncomfortable and confusing to have two Queens Elizabeth.
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  #1219  
Old 05-30-2012, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Tsar bobo Iv View Post
do any of u think lady louise r her brother will used the title of duke and duchess of windsor
Why would they? It was already stated when Edward & Sophie married and he was created Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn that when the current Duke of Edinburgh dies and the title eventually merges with the crown that Edward will be created Duke of Edinburgh.
There is a thread on this already which explains all the ins and outs of what can happen with the Edinburgh title.
I cannot envision the Duke of Windsor being recreated any time soon.
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Old 05-30-2012, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Tsar bobo Iv View Post
do any of u think lady louise r her brother will used the title of duke and duchess of windsor
I don't see anybody being the Duke and Duchess of Windsor ever again. That title was created for Edward VIII when he abdicated the throne and is still a rather sore spot still in British history.
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