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  #1201  
Old 05-11-2012, 05:14 AM
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I was under the impression the title is automatic for any Heir Apparent, not just the heir apparent who is also the Sovereign's son. However, the Act of Parliament 1469 does indeed clearly state that the Heir Apparent must be the King's son as well and the title is not inherited by his heir.



Just out of curiosity, is below the correct succession to the titles (as heir apparent) Prince Charles holds?

- Prince of Wales
Held by the Heir Apparent to the Throne (whether son or grandson of the Monarch). The title is not automatic and must be created for the heir.

- Duke of Cornwall
Held by the Heir Apparent to the Throne who is also the Monarch's eldest surviving son. In case of the Heir's death, it cannot be inherited by his own Heir Apparent, but could be inherited by the Heir's brother (the Sovereign's next eldest surviving son), assuming the latter becomes heir apparent as well.

- Duke of Rothesay
Held by the Heir Apparent to the Scottish Throne who is also the Monarch's eldest surviving son. In case of the Heir's death, it cannot be inherited by his own Heir Apparent, but could be inherited by the Heir's brother (the Sovereign's next eldest surviving son), assuming the latter becomes heir apparent as well.

- Earl of Carrick
Held by the eldest surviving son of the Monarch who is also Heir Apparent to the Throne.

- Baron Renfrew
Held by the Heir Apparent to the Throne.

- Lord of the Isles
Held by the eldest surviving male child of the reigning Scottish (British Monarch).

- Prince and Great Steward of Scotland
Titles of the Heir Apparent to the Throne, whether the Sovereign's son or other descendant.
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  #1202  
Old 05-15-2012, 05:07 PM
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If William died would his brother get his titles?
And if so... Would Catherine and Harry's wife have the same titles, or would she loose them?
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  #1203  
Old 05-15-2012, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danish girl View Post
If William died would his brother get his titles?
And if so... Would Catherine and Harry's wife have the same titles, or would she loose them?
Harry would not get his brother's titles if he should die. My understanding is with no heirs, the title would end with William but Catherine would still be The Duchess, although now having no ties to the royal family doubt she'd want to keep it.
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  #1204  
Old 05-15-2012, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danish girl View Post
If William died would his brother get his titles?
And if so... Would Catherine and Harry's wife have the same titles, or would she loose them?

The LPs for the title I believe have the normal remainder which means that no Harry can't inherit the title as he won't be a male line descendent of William's.

Should William die before he and Kate have any children the title would become extinct with his death. Kate would remain HRH The Duchess of Cambridge until she either died or remarried.

If William and Kate had a son that son would inherit the title on his father's death, assuming that is before William becomes King. Kate would still remain HRH Duchess of Cambridge, again until death or remarriage - not the dropping the the word The in her title - the person who is the wife of The Duke is The Duchess - she would correctly be The Dowager Duchess of Cambridge.

Interestingly when they change the succession laws if William and Kate have a daughter and then a son and William dies before becoming King the Cambridge title would still pass to the son and eventually, like Gloucester and Kent and Edinburgh cease to be held by an HRH. Gloucester and Kent's next holders are not HRH and so the title will lose that designation and assuming Charles or William respect the decision announced in 1999 after Edward gets Edinburgh it will still be held by an HRH but once it passes to James and beyond it won't be.
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  #1205  
Old 05-15-2012, 05:30 PM
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How would someone go about changing the laws for the inheritance of dukedoms? So that was equal as well. I find it awful that royal titles won't be held by HRH's in future years.
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  #1206  
Old 05-15-2012, 07:42 PM
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Laws of inheritance for future titles, royal or noble, can be stipulated in the Letters Patent of Orders-in-Council creating them.
It is possible than in another decade or two, newly created dukedoms will be limited to male-line children and grandchildren (possibly, great-grandchildren as well) of the Monarch, to avoid them eventually becoming non-royal dukedoms. It is also possible equal primogeniture is adopted for all newly created titles as well; what with equality and PC rules, it is highly unlikely the current situation of total exclusion of female inheritance (for most titles) will last for much longer.

Any changes in laws of inheritance for already existing titles would require parliamentary acts and the Sovereign's consent. It's really quite a difficult process, and I doubt anyone is going to start it in near future.
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  #1207  
Old 05-19-2012, 04:01 PM
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After observing the celebrations for Queen Elizabeth's jubilee yesterday I am finding the rank of Albert of Monanco quite interesting. On a general level I know an HRH outranks a HSH but Albert's position as a Sovereign and Charlene's as his Princess Consort seem to exempt them from that. I have noticed that at big Royal events he is usually placed secondary to Monarchs but always ahead of Crown Princes and Princesses so I imagine that a Prince who is a head of state must be ranked higher for that reason regardless of the letters in front of his title. It's the same with the Grand Duke of Luxembourg I suppose who is always placed ahead of Crown Princes as well, again because he is a head of state. So at this point in time Princess Charlene, as the wife of a Sovereign, outranks Princess Mary of Denmark, Catherine of Britain etc but will be overtaken by them when their husband's become King. Quite interesting to think about.
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  #1208  
Old 05-19-2012, 09:56 PM
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A royal Head of State is a royal Head of State, no matter whether their formal style is Majesty, Highness or Serene Highness, or their title is King, Queen, Emir or Grand Duke etc.

Ranking among royal Heads of State is based on the year of accession, thus Elizabeth II (1952) and the King of Thailand (1946) are the world's "senior" reigning monarchs. HM the King of Tonga (2012) and HM the Yang di-Pertuan Agong [King] of Malaysia (2011) are the most recent. HSH The Prince of Monaco is a relatively "new" sovereign having succeeded to the throne in 2005.

It is notable that in the formal photograph of World Sovereigns taken at the Windsor Castle luncheon, the Queen has King Michael of Romania (1927 and 1940) sitting on her right, and King Simeon of Bulgaria (1943) on her left. Next to King Michael is King Constantine of Greece (1964) and next to King Simeon is the Sultan of Brunei (1967). This is the ranking. Also of note is that at their private functions, the Gotha or royal caste accord an ex-King and Queen (or former reigning Prince, Grand Duke, whatever, and spouses) their sovereign ranking as reigning Monarchs.

Thus when Frederik succeeds his mother to become HM Frederik X, King of Denmark, HSH the Princess of Monaco (Charlene) will in the royal hierarchy place higher than that of Frederik's consort, HM Queen Mary.

Royal ranking is no different to that used within the Diplomatic Corps; the doyen of Ambassadors in most countries is the one who has served in his or her post the longest. It's straightforward and very simple: Seniority rules!
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  #1209  
Old 05-23-2012, 04:17 PM
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If I want to write a letter to the Earl of Ulster or the Earl of St. Andrews, how have I do it right?

The Honourable, nothing or what?

Thank you!
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  #1210  
Old 05-23-2012, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by principessa View Post
If I want to write a letter to the Earl of Ulster or the Earl of St. Andrews, how have I do it right?

The Honourable, nothing or what?

Thank you!
Both Earl of St Andrews and Earl of Ulster hold their styles by courtesy, as elder sons of Dukes (their fathers being respectively the Duke of Kent and the Duke of Gloucester). The written form of address to the eldest son of a Duke is "My Lord", or "Lord Ulster/St Andrews". More informally, "Dear Lord Ulster/St Andrews" can be used. The name on the envelope should read The Earl of Ulster/St Andrews.

The form of address "The Right Honourable" in reference to an Earl would have been accurate if the Earls of Ulster and St Andrews had the titles in their own right; since their styles are by courtesy, it wouldn't be a suitable form of address. "Honourable" is used when addressing the daughters and younger sons of Earls, Viscounts, and Barons, as well as the latter's wives.
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  #1211  
Old 05-29-2012, 08:07 PM
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I have a quick question, if Prince Andrew had a son would his son use the title HRH The Earl of Inverness as a courtesy or would he just be HRH Prince X of York?
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  #1212  
Old 05-29-2012, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by king of scotland View Post
I have a quick question, if Prince Andrew had a son would his son use the title HRH The Earl of Inverness as a courtesy or would he just be HRH Prince X of York?
As with all first-born sons of a Peer, he would be entitled to use his father's secondary title as a courtesy style, and would as such be known as The Earl of Inverness. Of course, he would also be a Royal Highness and a British Prince as male-line grandson of the Sovereign.

If Andrew had more than one son, the younger ones would be known as "His Royal Highness Prince Name of York".
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  #1213  
Old 05-29-2012, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
As with all first-born sons of a Peer, he would be entitled to use his father's secondary title as a courtesy style, and would as such be known as The Earl of Inverness. Of course, he would also be a Royal Highness and a British Prince as male-line grandson of the Sovereign.

If Andrew had more than one son, the younger ones would be known as "His Royal Highness Prince Name of York".
Royal Princes in the UK do not use courtesy titles: any son of The Duke of York would be "HRH Prince X of York", just as The Prince of Wales was known as "HRH Prince Charles of Edinburgh" and not "The Earl of Merioneth" from his birth to his mother's accession. The heirs of TRH The Dukes of Gloucester and Kent use their fathers' second titles because they themselves are NOT royal.
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  #1214  
Old 05-29-2012, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by LauraS3514 View Post
Royal Princes in the UK do not use courtesy titles: any son of The Duke of York would be "HRH Prince X of York", just as The Prince of Wales was known as "HRH Prince Charles of Edinburgh" and not "The Earl of Merioneth" from his birth to his mother's accession. The heirs of TRH The Dukes of Gloucester and Kent use their fathers' second titles because they themselves are NOT royal.
Exactly, and HRH Prince Edward of Kent never used the title of Earl of St Andrews and neither HRH Prince William of Gloucester or HRH Prince Richard of Gloucester ever used the title of Earl of Ulster. It is only the non HRH heirs use courtesy titles.
Andrews son would have been known as HRH Prince X of York.
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  #1215  
Old 05-30-2012, 03:25 AM
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Then how come James is known as Viscount Severn? Because he isn't known as Prince James?
As he is royal, he is a prince, but he's known by his father's courtesy title.
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  #1216  
Old 05-30-2012, 03:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumutqueen
Then how come James is known as Viscount Severn? Because he isn't known as Prince James?
As he is royal, he is a prince, but he's known by his father's courtesy title.
It was announced at the time of the Earl & Countess of Wessex's marriage that their children would be styled as those of an earl, not as male-line grandchildren of a monarch (as is actually their right under George V's letters patent.) Hence Viscount Severn's older sister is Lady Louise Windsor (not Princess Louise) and James uses his father's courtesy title.
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  #1217  
Old 05-30-2012, 03:50 AM
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Originally Posted by purple_Lulu View Post
It was announced at the time of the Earl & Countess of Wessex's marriage that their children would be styled as those of an earl, not as male-line grandchildren of a monarch (as is actually their right under George V's letters patent.) Hence Viscount Severn's older sister is Lady Louise Windsor (not Princess Louise) and James uses his father's courtesy title.
I know that.
But James is still a Prince but he's known as Viscount Severn, so he contradicts both points made above.
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  #1218  
Old 05-30-2012, 03:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumutqueen

I know that.
But James is still a Prince but he's known as Viscount Severn, so he contradicts both points made above.
They changed the rules. First time. He's a prince under his great-great-grandpapa's letters patent, but that's not being applied for him or his sister.
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  #1219  
Old 05-30-2012, 04:32 AM
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I suspect that if the Duke of York had married & produced children somewhat later than he actually did, then rather than our HRH Princess Beatrice, HRH Princess Eugenie and notional HRH Prince X, we would now have Lady Beatrice Windsor, Lady Eugenie Windsor and a notional Earl of Inverness.
But them again, I also suspect that the actual York marriage contributed to the subsequent downscaling we've seen demonstrated by the Wessex family, so it's all pure speculation how things might have been other than the actual reality we know.
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  #1220  
Old 05-30-2012, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by LauraS3514 View Post
Royal Princes in the UK do not use courtesy titles: any son of The Duke of York would be "HRH Prince X of York", just as The Prince of Wales was known as "HRH Prince Charles of Edinburgh" and not "The Earl of Merioneth" from his birth to his mother's accession. The heirs of TRH The Dukes of Gloucester and Kent use their fathers' second titles because they themselves are NOT royal.
I didn't know that; thank you for sharing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by purple_Lulu View Post
They changed the rules. First time. He's a prince under his great-great-grandpapa's letters patent, but that's not being applied for him or his sister.
They didn't change the rules as such; the Letters Patent 1917 are still very much in force. Edward and Sophie may have chosen their children to be known as children of an Earl (as opposed to Royal Prince), but that doesn't change the fact that both James and Louise are legally Royal Highnesses, Prince and Princess of the United Kingdom. To counter that, new Letters Patent or Royal Proclamations need to be issued - and that hasn't been done so far.
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