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  #1181  
Old 05-04-2012, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
I not sure that is correct. The Westminster title has in the past been inherited by brothers and cousins, although all descendents of the 1st duke, not only father to son to the exclusion of other male heirs If the current heir dies without sons the dukedom will be extinct because there are no male heirs of the 1st duke remaining. The Westminster marquessate will continue though and be inherited by the Earls of Wilton who is a descendent of the 1st Marquess of Westminster.
You are right; my apologies for the mistake.
The error came from the wording of the original Letter Patent where I interpreted "direct descendants" as direct descendants of the current Duke only. However, upon re-reading the Letter Patent, it is obvious that the direct descendants of the original Duke were meant.

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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Having a female remainder was not uncommon when granting titles to serving officers.
in the Mountbatten case the succession is to the heirs male of Patricia and then to the heirs male of Pamela. Other than Patricia and Pamela there is no female succession to the Mountbatten of Burma peerage.
As far as I know, such reminders are extremely rare in cases of hereditary peerage. You are, however, definitely correct about Patricia's descendants; only male descendants are eligible to inherit the title. This said, I don't doubt that should both Patricia and Pamela have no surviving male descendants, a new reminder or letter patent will be released granting female descendants right to succeed to the title.
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  #1182  
Old 05-04-2012, 06:10 PM
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I don't know about that as there are male heirs now but in the future the connection between the Mountbatten's and the royals will lessen so the idea of giving them special treatment not given to other families will not happen.
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  #1183  
Old 05-04-2012, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
I don't know about that as there are male heirs now but in the future the connection between the Mountbatten's and the royals will lessen so the idea of giving them special treatment not given to other families will not happen.
Agreed, and granting hereditary titles outside of the immediate royal family has also gone out of style.
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  #1184  
Old 05-04-2012, 06:17 PM
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Another issue is that the title can't pass into the younger daughters descendents - past that daughter's son as he has only had daughters, but there are at least five eligible boys in the line from the current Countess.

The interesting thing with the Countess is that her husband was a peer in his own right so their descendents will inherit two titles, one from each parent.
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  #1185  
Old 05-06-2012, 10:07 PM
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So, when the heir inherits what will his title be...and will the titles always be connected now? Also, the order of the titles as they are listed ( as in Williams
's situation)...Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge .. Will it be decided on when the title was bestowed or how long the title itself has been in existence?
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  #1186  
Old 05-06-2012, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Jenafran View Post
So, when the heir inherits what will his title be...and will the titles always be connected now? Also, the order of the titles as they are listed ( as in Williams
's situation)...Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge .. Will it be decided on when the title was bestowed or how long the title itself has been in existence?
The Countess Mountbatten of Burma's eldest son Norton was known by her secondary title Baron Romsey. When his father died he inherited the peerage and so became Baron Brabourne, a peer in his own right. When his mother dies he will become 3rd Earl Mountbatten of Burma and Baron Romsey and well as retaining the Brabourne barony he currently holds. He will be known as Earl Mountbatten, as his secondary titles are inferior to his earldom.
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  #1187  
Old 05-06-2012, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenafran View Post
So, when the heir inherits what will his title be...and will the titles always be connected now? Also, the order of the titles as they are listed ( as in Williams
's situation)...Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge .. Will it be decided on when the title was bestowed or how long the title itself has been in existence?

The order they are listed is according to two criteria -

1. seniority of the title e.g. a Duke before an Earldom
2. age of creation e.g. Cornwall before Cambridge as the Cornwall LPs date to the 14th C while William's Cambridge title is a 2011 creation.

So when The Queen dies William will automatically become Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge as Cornwall is the older creation.

When Edward presumably gets Edinburgh that will take precedence over Wessex as it is a Dukedom not an Earldom.

but ... if, by some chance, Edward inherits all of Philip's titles Merioneth would be listed before Wessex as it is an older creation (for Edward to inherit directly from Philip, Charles, William, Harry and Andrew all have to predecease him and have no legitimate male heirs). Edward would then be Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Merioneth, Earl of Wessex, Viscount Severn, Baron Greenwich.

This list then shows the two criteria for listing titles - seniority of the title - Duke before Earl before Viscount before Barony and date of creation - hence Merioneth before Wessex.

If Philip dies before The Queen then Charles will probably only give Edward Edinburgh but if he did recreate all their father's titles for Edward then Merioneth would be listed after Wessex as it would be a later creation date.
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  #1188  
Old 05-10-2012, 04:58 PM
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Does the heir to the British throne always receive the title prince of wales?
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  #1189  
Old 05-10-2012, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Grandduchess24 View Post
Does the heir to the British throne always receive the title prince of wales?
Usually, but not always.
The Prince of Wales is not an automatic title and it can only be granted to the Heir Apparent to the Throne. Quite a few English and British Monarchs ascended to the Throne without ever holding the title, including George VI, William IV and others.

The Monarch must create his or her Heir Apparent The Prince of Wales. Prince Charles was Heir Apparent to the Throne since his mother's accession to the Throne in 1952; however, he only became The Prince of Wales in 1958, and his investiture didn't take place until 1969.
In that respect, the Prince of Wales differs from most other titles held by the Heir Apparent:
- The title of The Duke of Cornwall is automatically held by the Heir Apparent (who is also the Monarch's son - not any other relative).
- The titles Duke of Rothesay, Earl of Carrick, Baron Renfrew and several others are automatically held by the Heir Apparent (whatever his/her relation to the Monarch)
- The title of Earl of Chester, like that of the Prince of Wales, has to be granted by the Monarch. It is granted to the Heir Apparent, usually at the same time as the title the Prince of Wales.

For example, if Prince Charles were to predecease his mother, it is most likely Prince William would not be created The Prince of Wales (incidentally, he would also be ineligible to be The Duke of Cornwall as grandson - not son - of the Monarch).
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  #1190  
Old 05-10-2012, 06:27 PM
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I would actually think the opposite, that if Charles were to predecease The Queen she would create William Prince of Wales, precisely because he can't be Duke of Cornwall and thus would be clearly identified as the heir apparent.

The last time a grandson was the direct heir that is what happened - George II created his grandson, George III, Prince of Wales in 1751 only a few months after he had been created Duke of Edinburgh and shortly after the death of Frederick, Prince of Wales, George II's son and heir.
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  #1191  
Old 05-11-2012, 04:32 AM
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I think the opposite simply because the title is too much associated with Prince Charles (not a very solid reason, granted).
If he were to predecease his mother, I don't see the Queen immediately creating Prince William The Prince of Wales. And, unless Her Majesty lives for another decade after her son's death (which is unfortunately unlikely), William might never be created Prince of Wales. In that case, he would probably known as the Duke of Rothesay because that title is automatic for Heir Apparent.
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  #1192  
Old 05-11-2012, 04:52 AM
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William wouldn't be the Duke of Rothesay if that happened. It works the same way as the Duchy of Cornwall does. The Act of the Parliament of Scotland creating the title gives it to "the first-born prince of the King of Scots for ever." I think all of the "automatic" titles for heirs apparent can only be held on those terms.
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  #1193  
Old 05-11-2012, 05:14 AM
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I was under the impression the title is automatic for any Heir Apparent, not just the heir apparent who is also the Sovereign's son. However, the Act of Parliament 1469 does indeed clearly state that the Heir Apparent must be the King's son as well and the title is not inherited by his heir.



Just out of curiosity, is below the correct succession to the titles (as heir apparent) Prince Charles holds?

- Prince of Wales
Held by the Heir Apparent to the Throne (whether son or grandson of the Monarch). The title is not automatic and must be created for the heir.

- Duke of Cornwall
Held by the Heir Apparent to the Throne who is also the Monarch's eldest surviving son. In case of the Heir's death, it cannot be inherited by his own Heir Apparent, but could be inherited by the Heir's brother (the Sovereign's next eldest surviving son), assuming the latter becomes heir apparent as well.

- Duke of Rothesay
Held by the Heir Apparent to the Scottish Throne who is also the Monarch's eldest surviving son. In case of the Heir's death, it cannot be inherited by his own Heir Apparent, but could be inherited by the Heir's brother (the Sovereign's next eldest surviving son), assuming the latter becomes heir apparent as well.

- Earl of Carrick
Held by the eldest surviving son of the Monarch who is also Heir Apparent to the Throne.

- Baron Renfrew
Held by the Heir Apparent to the Throne.

- Lord of the Isles
Held by the eldest surviving male child of the reigning Scottish (British Monarch).

- Prince and Great Steward of Scotland
Titles of the Heir Apparent to the Throne, whether the Sovereign's son or other descendant.
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  #1194  
Old 05-15-2012, 05:07 PM
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If William died would his brother get his titles?
And if so... Would Catherine and Harry's wife have the same titles, or would she loose them?
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  #1195  
Old 05-15-2012, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danish girl View Post
If William died would his brother get his titles?
And if so... Would Catherine and Harry's wife have the same titles, or would she loose them?
Harry would not get his brother's titles if he should die. My understanding is with no heirs, the title would end with William but Catherine would still be The Duchess, although now having no ties to the royal family doubt she'd want to keep it.
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  #1196  
Old 05-15-2012, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danish girl View Post
If William died would his brother get his titles?
And if so... Would Catherine and Harry's wife have the same titles, or would she loose them?

The LPs for the title I believe have the normal remainder which means that no Harry can't inherit the title as he won't be a male line descendent of William's.

Should William die before he and Kate have any children the title would become extinct with his death. Kate would remain HRH The Duchess of Cambridge until she either died or remarried.

If William and Kate had a son that son would inherit the title on his father's death, assuming that is before William becomes King. Kate would still remain HRH Duchess of Cambridge, again until death or remarriage - not the dropping the the word The in her title - the person who is the wife of The Duke is The Duchess - she would correctly be The Dowager Duchess of Cambridge.

Interestingly when they change the succession laws if William and Kate have a daughter and then a son and William dies before becoming King the Cambridge title would still pass to the son and eventually, like Gloucester and Kent and Edinburgh cease to be held by an HRH. Gloucester and Kent's next holders are not HRH and so the title will lose that designation and assuming Charles or William respect the decision announced in 1999 after Edward gets Edinburgh it will still be held by an HRH but once it passes to James and beyond it won't be.
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  #1197  
Old 05-15-2012, 05:30 PM
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How would someone go about changing the laws for the inheritance of dukedoms? So that was equal as well. I find it awful that royal titles won't be held by HRH's in future years.
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  #1198  
Old 05-15-2012, 07:42 PM
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Laws of inheritance for future titles, royal or noble, can be stipulated in the Letters Patent of Orders-in-Council creating them.
It is possible than in another decade or two, newly created dukedoms will be limited to male-line children and grandchildren (possibly, great-grandchildren as well) of the Monarch, to avoid them eventually becoming non-royal dukedoms. It is also possible equal primogeniture is adopted for all newly created titles as well; what with equality and PC rules, it is highly unlikely the current situation of total exclusion of female inheritance (for most titles) will last for much longer.

Any changes in laws of inheritance for already existing titles would require parliamentary acts and the Sovereign's consent. It's really quite a difficult process, and I doubt anyone is going to start it in near future.
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Old 05-19-2012, 04:01 PM
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After observing the celebrations for Queen Elizabeth's jubilee yesterday I am finding the rank of Albert of Monanco quite interesting. On a general level I know an HRH outranks a HSH but Albert's position as a Sovereign and Charlene's as his Princess Consort seem to exempt them from that. I have noticed that at big Royal events he is usually placed secondary to Monarchs but always ahead of Crown Princes and Princesses so I imagine that a Prince who is a head of state must be ranked higher for that reason regardless of the letters in front of his title. It's the same with the Grand Duke of Luxembourg I suppose who is always placed ahead of Crown Princes as well, again because he is a head of state. So at this point in time Princess Charlene, as the wife of a Sovereign, outranks Princess Mary of Denmark, Catherine of Britain etc but will be overtaken by them when their husband's become King. Quite interesting to think about.
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Old 05-19-2012, 09:56 PM
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A royal Head of State is a royal Head of State, no matter whether their formal style is Majesty, Highness or Serene Highness, or their title is King, Queen, Emir or Grand Duke etc.

Ranking among royal Heads of State is based on the year of accession, thus Elizabeth II (1952) and the King of Thailand (1946) are the world's "senior" reigning monarchs. HM the King of Tonga (2012) and HM the Yang di-Pertuan Agong [King] of Malaysia (2011) are the most recent. HSH The Prince of Monaco is a relatively "new" sovereign having succeeded to the throne in 2005.

It is notable that in the formal photograph of World Sovereigns taken at the Windsor Castle luncheon, the Queen has King Michael of Romania (1927 and 1940) sitting on her right, and King Simeon of Bulgaria (1943) on her left. Next to King Michael is King Constantine of Greece (1964) and next to King Simeon is the Sultan of Brunei (1967). This is the ranking. Also of note is that at their private functions, the Gotha or royal caste accord an ex-King and Queen (or former reigning Prince, Grand Duke, whatever, and spouses) their sovereign ranking as reigning Monarchs.

Thus when Frederik succeeds his mother to become HM Frederik X, King of Denmark, HSH the Princess of Monaco (Charlene) will in the royal hierarchy place higher than that of Frederik's consort, HM Queen Mary.

Royal ranking is no different to that used within the Diplomatic Corps; the doyen of Ambassadors in most countries is the one who has served in his or her post the longest. It's straightforward and very simple: Seniority rules!
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