Questions about British Styles and Titles 1: Ending 2022

[ysbel]

I wasn't saying that he used this act to become British subject, I was saying that he was British from day one, because this act is automatic. You don't have to ask for the British citizenship. If you fulfil the conditions, you automatically are.
Both the British government and Philip himself were unaware of that fact so he was naturalised through the usual process, even through that was not necessary.
I wonder if, would that fact been known at the time, Philip would have still been met by xenophobia and would have stop using his Greek title.

I had never considered that. Can someone bring more details

Well it appears that law was in effect for over 200 years without anyone ever using it until Ernst August of Hanover challenged the British courts after which the law was amended. So I agree it is possible that Prince Philip had certain rights under the act that he failed to execute when he became a British subject but if he failed to execute them, I think, for all practical purposes of his becoming a British subject it was as if he didn't have them.

 

[ysbel]

Since the use of a foreign title and rank in the UK is subject to the recognition and will of the Sovereign, it would seem he automatically ceased to be known by his birthright title and assumed the surname of Mountbatten instead.

The Sovereign seems to have full discretion over their own styles and titles but according to heralica.com the Privy Council and sometimes Parliament is involved in other matters concerning to styles and rank.

I wasn't able to find anything concerning foreign titles in particular but I would imagine the Sovereign would have to gain the consent of the Prime Minister at least to grant permission for a British subject to use a foreign title.

 

[branchg]

For foreign nationals who are not members of the British royal family, the Sovereign would have to consult with the Prime Minister in order to grant recognition to ensure there are no diplomatic issues.

In the case of Princess Marina, there was no issue and George V, George VI and Elizabeth II all permitted her to retain her rank and style as Princess of Greece & Denmark.

 

[branchg]

In 'Philip' by Basil Boothroyd, it says that Lord Mountbatten was pushing King George VI to have a word with King George II of Greece to "get things moving" in regard to determining Philip's rights of succession. But the Greek King "wasn't too pleased to lose his promising young cousin from the roll of the Royal House". So it would appear that the Greek succession question may never have been (officially) resolved.

Again, according to Vickers biography of Princess Andrew, George II of the Hellenes informed George VI he would allow Philip to renounce his right of succession to the Greek throne. There was never any discussion between the two Sovereigns as to whether Philip would relinquish his title and rank as HRH Prince of Greece & Denmark, so it appears he never did.

Becoming a British subject and assuming the name of Lt. Philip Mountbatten took care of the issue for him under British common law. He then was legally a commoner until George VI created him HRH The Duke of Edinburgh the night before his wedding to The Princess Elizabeth.

 

[plseyw]

British royals using titles lower than their princely ranks

I believe that Sophie Wessex is in fact a princess but uses her husband's title instead of princess, just like Sarah Ferguson was and is always called the Duchess of York and not Princess Sarah.

 

[HighGoalHighDreams]

In fact, the only thing that entitles one to use the title of Prince/ Princess Myname is being born into that title. Otherwise, for a woman it must be Princess Husband (Princess Michael) or else what we are used to seeing: Sarah, The Duchess of York (while married).

So, Princess Beatrice is such because she was born a Princess.

But Diana could never (correctly) be called Princess Diana because she was not born a Princess. She was therefore Diana, The Princess of Wales (while married). Nothing but birth entitles the use of Princess Myname.

(Editd to add: More in line with the exact comments in Plseyw: When a woman marries into royalty, she does marry into all of her husbands titles. So, yes, Sarah was a Princess, Princess Andrew. This is also shown in how Camilla chooses to use Duchess rather than Princess, even though upon marriage she automatically had the right to use the other titles (which she still legally has)- The Princess of Wales, The Duchess of Rothsay, etc.) Welcome, Psleyw: We both joined last summer and it's both our first day of posting!)

 

[branchg]

Upon marriage to a son or grandson of the Sovereign, a woman becomes a princess of the UK with the rank of Royal Highness ("HRH The Princess Andrew"). As a matter of form, they are styled after their husband's peerage, rather than Princess Husband Name, although that is part of their full titles as well.

 

[branchg]

I believe that Sophie Wessex is in fact a princess but uses her husband's title instead of princess, just like Sarah Ferguson was and is always called the Duchess of York and not Princess Sarah.

Sophie is "HRH The Princess Edward" legally, but does not use this style as her title since Prince Edward was granted peerages by The Queen the morning of his wedding. She is HRH The Countess of Wessex.

 

[ysbel]

On titles, I have a couple of questions.

The title of prince or princess, when were the younger members of the royal family first officially referred to as princes and princesses?

I do know the title of Princess Royal was first brought over by Henrietta Maria of France, consort of Charles I who wanted her eldest daughter to have a title similiar to the Princesse Royale in the French court.

I also read that George I was the first to create his younger sons and daughters princes and princesses because it was a common practice on the Continent but not in Britain. Before George I, only the Prince of Wales and the Princess Royal were considered prince and princess. The younger siblings were called Lord or Lady. But the title of prince and princess seems to have been used before then, especially for the daughters of Henry VIII who were alternatively princesses or Ladies depending on the political situation.

There's also the title of Queen. Anybody that has studied the history of the English language knows that Queen is derived from 'cwen' an old word that just meant woman. In earlier medieval manuscripts, English does not seem to have a special title for the consort of a King. The women were referred to as the Lady Elinor (Eleanor of Aquitaine) or Lady Isabel (consort of Edward II) But by the time of Henry VIII, the title of Queen seems to be firmly in place.

Who was the first Queen Consort to be recognized as 'Queen' in the English language?

 

[branchg]

The use of Prince and Princess was a German practice brought over by the Hanoverians to Great Britain. Before that, they were simply peers or Lord/Lady. Same thing with Queen Consort.

I believe Caroline of Ansbach, consort to George II, was the first to be formally known and styled as HM Queen Caroline and addressed as Her Majesty.

 

[ysbel]

Hi branchg. I wasn't so much asking which was the first to be called Majesty but the first to be commonly known as Queen.

The wives of Henry VIII appear to be referred to as Queen's in legal and diplomatic documents. A letter from Thomas Cramner refers to the divorce of Queen Katherine and the coronation of Queen Anne (Boleyn). Cramner refers to Lady Catherine probably to stress her status after the divorce but he definitely refers to the coronation of the Queen (Anne). So the term Queen to denote a Queen Consort was seemingly already in use by then.

http://www.britannia.com/history/docs/cranmer.html

I was just wondering when the usage of the word Queen started in England.

 

[branchg]

It was pretty inconsistent. Sometimes they were referred to as Queen, other times as Lady Anne or Ma'am. Given the terrible wars and murders of the time, I think most Kings probably viewed their wives as disposable at best! And lifetimes were generally quite short as well.

 

[ysbel]

No doubt like everything in the Middle Ages, the use of the word Queen was probably inconsistent but I'm still curious as to when the term Queen was first used. The meaning of consort or female monarch wasn't the original meaning of the word so there must have been a transition between the former meaning and the latter.

But on another note, I did find this signature of Elizabeth of York, Henry VIIIs mother. It reads Elysabeth the Quene.

http://tudorhistory.org/people/eyork/gallery.html

So it looks like the usage had changed before Henry VIII.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

It was pretty inconsistent. Sometimes they were referred to as Queen, other times as Lady Anne or Ma'am. Given the terrible wars and murders of the time, I think most Kings probably viewed their wives as disposable at best! And lifetimes were generally quite short as well.

Yes, Shakespeare did call the wife of Richard III "Lady Anne". And obviously, after Henry VIII "divorced" Catherine of Aragon, there was always debate about Anne Boleyn's title and some who were loyal to "Queen Catherine" never referred to Anne as anymore than "the Lady Anne".Even Henry was at a loss for definitively setting the record straight about Anne's title because he was making new precedents.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

the word "queen"

Hello,

I work with language and thus have some learned friends who know about the English language. I asked him the question about "queen" - here's the answer:

Actually, even in Old English the word cwen NEVER meant anything but "wife of a king" or, at minimum, "wife of a noble". The OED's earliest quotation in
any sense is from 825, as a translation of Latin "regina". It was
generalized to "female ruler" without reference to married state quite early,
and references to "Mary Queen of Heaven" date back before 1000. This is a
different word from cwene, which meant "woman" in general, usually in a
disparaging sense. (In Dutch, it meant a broken-down cow.)


As seen from the spelling, cwen the consort or ruler had a short /e/ and cwene a long one. By 1200 the spellings were queen and queyne (pronounced "kwayne"), and the latter is now spelled quean. All are from the
Indo-European "gwen-" root also seen in the Greek "gyno-" words. In
Gaelic, /gw/ was pronounced /b/, and so it is the first syllable of banshee
-- bean sidhe, woman of the fairies. (Another example of Gaelic b-for-gw is
"bard", which is from an Indo-European "gwere-" root that meant to favor or
praise. It's also responsible for Latin grace, gratitude, etc.)

End of quote. Does that answer your question?

 

[margotantoinette]

here's a question hopefully someone could answer: if William or Harry were to marry a woman who is a princess in her own right because she is the child of a sovereign, such as Madeleine of Sweden, what would her title be? Would she be Princess Madeleine of Wales and Sweden? and do you think that they would make her give up her place in the swedish succession?

 

[branchg]

here's a question hopefully someone could answer: if William or Harry were to marry a woman who is a princess in her own right because she is the child of a sovereign, such as Madeleine of Sweden, what would her title be? Would she be Princess Madeleine of Wales and Sweden? and do you think that they would make her give up her place in the swedish succession?

It would be the same as when Princess Marina of Greece & Denmark married Prince George. After her marriage, she was styled HRH Princess Marina, The Duchess of Kent, with permission of George V. Both George VI and Elizabeth II recognized her rank as a princess as well.

I am not familiar with Swedish law on the succession to the throne, but I assume Madeleine would be required to reliniquish her place in the line of succession upon marriage to a foreign heir or spare to another nation.

 

[PreDoc]

I thought Excellency was higher than honorable b/c I've seen U.S. Presidents ahev the prefix His Excellency and Top Diplomats (like th eSecretary of State and ambassadors) have the Honorable

I believe the American President is constitutionally forbidden to be formally addressed as "His Excellency" within the United States but in diplomatic circles I'm sure it occurs all the time.

 

[seto]

I was wondering if the duke york remarried could the queen make her princess her first name and her HRH Duchess of york. Or would she have to just remain duchess of york.

 

[BeatrixFan]

If the Duke remarried, his new wife would be HRH The Duchess of York. Sarah would be Sarah, Duchess of York but would probably stop using the courtesy title.

 

[magnik]

If the Duke remarried, his new wife would be HRH The Duchess of York. Sarah would be Sarah, Duchess of York but would probably stop using the courtesy title.

Or if it happen maybe not she but the colour press and people would stop calling her Dss of York.

 

[branchg]

Sarah is not a member of the royal family anyway, so I doubt it would matter much if she dropped the style, especially since she lives in New York now.

 

[BeatrixFan]

I think it's about time she dropped it. It causes all kinds of problems, especially as she seems to insist on being addressed as "Her Grace".

 

[sirmax]

Sarah is not a member of the royal family anyway, so I doubt it would matter much if she dropped the style, especially since she lives in New York now.

At this years's Garter Ceremony we saw that Sarah was present for the installation of the Duke of York. Am I mistaken or there is something special between both? They seem to be going along well together. Do you think that a «reunion» could be something that we could see in the future?

 

[BeatrixFan]

Well, it's rumoured that Andrew and Sarah are seeing alot of each other but I very much doubt they would remarry. The Royal Family have just returned to normality, or as normal as they can get. They haven't been this content for years and I doubt anyone would want a repeat performance of Sarah's years as Duchess of York. So I doubt there will be a reunion.

 

[Roslyn]

I think it's about time she dropped it. It causes all kinds of problems, especially as she seems to insist on being addressed as "Her Grace".

I think it's about time people just stopped addressing her that way. That'd solve the problem.

 

[seto]

I don't think sarah would want to do that again it wasn't for her. I think they love each other and are great friends

 

[kimebear]

I think it's about time she dropped it. It causes all kinds of problems, especially as she seems to insist on being addressed as "Her Grace".

Really? I haven't seen anything written about this. Is it reliable info or tabloid trash that is reporting this? If it is true, it's inappropriate.

 

[kelly9480]

The issue of what to call ex-wives of royals is a tricky one. Most ppl just call them Ma'am, because you can't call them by their given names, because you don't know them well enough, and you don't call them by Her Grace. Diana was called Ma'am and referred to as The Princess after her divorce. Sarah is called Ma'am and referred to, formally by people in conversation as The Duchess, because the whole title is described as too long to bother with.

 

[branchg]

I doubt Sarah insists on being addressed as Your Grace as she is not a duchess. While married, she was HRH The Princess Andrew and was styled The Duchess of York from her husband's peerages. Her rank and precedence flowed from her status as a princess of the UK, not a Duchess.

With divorce, she was no longer a princess of the UK or The Duchess of York. She carries a style appropriate to a divorcee of a peer, but is granted some additional courtesy as the mother of two princesses of the blood royal.

She is addressed as Ma'am or Duchess in conversation.