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  #1161  
Old 04-30-2012, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Jenafran View Post
Please forgive the ignorance, but how was Prince William ever a commoner? 3 levels, commoner, nobility, and royalty?
It is perfectly possible to be a royal and a commoner.
According to British law, only the Sovereign and the Peers are not commoners. That means that while Prince William (as the Duke of Cambridge - a peer) is no longer a commoner, Prince Harry (who isn't a peer as of now) is still a one. Similarly, Princess Anne, Princess Beatrice, Princess Eugenie, Lady Louise and even Viscount Severn (his title is by courtesy, not in his own right) are all commoners by law.

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Originally Posted by DukeOfAster View Post
Just a note on Prince Charles. When he was born, because he was the first born son of the heir, did he receive the title the Duke of Cornwall at birth or once his Grandfather's death. When he got that title he then moved from commoner to noble or did that happen once he was made Prince of Wales.
Duke of Cornwall is a title that can only belong to the Heir Apparent to the Throne who is the son - never grandson or other relative - of the Monarch.
If, for example, Prince Charles were to die before ascending to the Throne, Prince William, as Queen Elizabeth's grandson, would NOT become the Duke of Cornwall. On the other hand, if Prince Charles were childless and died before ascending to the Throne, Prince Andrew (as the new Heir Apparent and the Sovereign's son) would automatically become the Duke of Cornwall.

When Charles was born, he was the Heir Apparent of the Heiress Presumptive; as such, he couldn't have the title. In fact, had George VI not passed Letters Patent 1948, Prince Charles wouldn't even be a Prince or a Royal Highness; as female-line grandson of the Sovereign, he could only inherit titles from his father and be titled by courtesy as Earl of Merioneth (his father's second highest title).

The moment George VI dies (and Charles became Heir Apparent to the Throne) he ceased to be a commoner and became a Peer - as Duke of Cornwall (and other automatic titles Heir Apparent assumes). He was created The Prince of Wales in addition to the titles he already possessed; thus, from 1952 and onwards Charles was never a commoner.
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  #1162  
Old 04-30-2012, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by DukeOfAster View Post
Just to check so I understand, so it is he is royal but before he had a title of his own he was a commoner and then a noble because he has a title of his own. His wife nor future children have been given a tile so they are given the status of commoner. If the queen had given Catherine the status of Princess of the United Kingdom would that have made her noble because she was given it in her own right? Very interesting.

No - being a Princess of the UK (which she is as the wife of a Prince of the UK) doesn't make one a noble e.g. Beatrice, Eugenie, Anne and Alexandra (and Louise) are all Princesses of the UK and have been since birth but they are all still commoners.

Nobles are those with substantive titles in their own right - Philip, Charles, William, Andrew, Edward, Richard and Edward (Duke of Kent) are the only royals who are noble. All the rest, Camilla, Kate, Harry, Beatrice, Eugenie, Sophie, Anne, Birgitte, Katherine (Duchess of Kent) even though HRH Prince/Princess either from birth or by marriage are still commoners.

The Queen went from being a commoner to being The Queen. She was never a noble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DukeOfAster View Post
Just a note on Prince Charles. When he was born, because he was the first born son of the heir, did he receive the title the Duke of Cornwall at birth or once his Grandfather's death. When he got that title he then moved from commoner to noble or did that happen once he was made Prince of Wales.

Charles became a noble the instant his grandfather died when he became Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay etc.

Therefore he was already a noble when he was created Prince of Wales, Earl of Chester in 1958.
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  #1163  
Old 05-02-2012, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NGalitzine
Charles automatically became HRH The Duke of Cornwall the moment his grandfather died and his mother succeeded to the throne. Before that he was HRH Prince Charles of Edinburgh.
Thanks NGalitzine. So, peer = nobility?
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  #1164  
Old 05-02-2012, 09:50 PM
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Artemisia,

Very good explanation on the commoner question. You are indeed a font of knowledge, thank you.
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  #1165  
Old 05-02-2012, 09:50 PM
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Another question please.... Why is Duke of York higher than Duke of Cambridge?
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  #1166  
Old 05-02-2012, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenafran
Another question please.... Why is Duke of York higher than Duke of Cambridge?
It depends on how you are measuring "higher" by reference to the order of precedence (Andrew is higher) or line of succession (William).


The Duke of York, as the son of the reigning monarch takes precedence over the grandson of the monarch.

The Duke of Cambridge, of course, is higher in the order of succession but the orders of succession and precedence are two different things.
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  #1167  
Old 05-02-2012, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Jenafran View Post
Another question please.... Why is Duke of York higher than Duke of Cambridge?
Another reason why The Duke of York is higher is that that title was created first - so order of creation also plays a part in some areas of precedence.

So precedence can depend on

1. relationship to the monarch - with all children ahead of all grandchildren.
2. order of succession
3. date of creation of the title

Depending on the circumstances one of the above will apply.
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  #1168  
Old 05-03-2012, 12:10 AM
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Just checking, I did not thank just by marrying into the family made you a Princess or Prince of the United Kingdom. I thought the Queen had to make her husband a Prince of the UK and that is why he is Prince Phillip, Duke of Edinburgh. On the other hand Catherine is Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge. I have heard that is something a spouse will do once they be become Monarch. Like Charles will one day make Camilla a Princess in her own right and William with Catherine. Right or wrong. Thanks for all the info and help on this it is very fascinating.
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  #1169  
Old 05-03-2012, 01:04 AM
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Philip was actually a prince from birth of Greece and Denmark but prior to his marriage to Elizabeth, he renounced that title and George VI created him the Duke of Edinburgh. It was after Elizabeth became sovereign that she issued letters patent creating Philip a Prince of the UK.

Catherine and Camilla are princesses of the UK actually (Catherine is Princess WIlliam and Camilla is The Princess of Wales but prefers to be styled as The Duchess of Cornwall). As wives take their titles from their husbands, as long as they are married, it is HRH The Duchess of Cambridge and HRH The Duchess of Cornwall. If you see titles such as Diana, Princess of Wales or Sarah, Duchess of York with the woman's first name, it denotes a divorced wife of a peer. As it stands right now, once Charles becomes the sovereign, Camilla will be his Queen Consort and the same would apply to Catherine once William becomes king. The only change I can see happening with William and Catherine is if Charles creates William. The Prince of Wales. Then Catherine would be The Princess of Wales. I don't see either one of these women being created a Princess of the UK in their own right.
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  #1170  
Old 05-03-2012, 01:10 AM
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It is fascinating! So I've got another question I see a lot of royalty being prince or princess of Greece and Denmark...how?
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  #1171  
Old 05-03-2012, 05:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenafran View Post
Another question please.... Why is Duke of York higher than Duke of Cambridge?
There is a significant difference between the Line of Succession and the Order of Precedence. William (as the son of the Heir apparent) is higher than his uncle in the Line of Succession. However, according to the Line of Precedence for male royals, the Sovereign's sons outrank Sovereign's grandsons, regardless of their places in the succession line.

The current Order of Precedence for males in the British Royal Family:
- Prince Philip, The Duke of Edinburgh*
- Prince Charles
- Prince Andrew
- Prince Edward
- Prince William
- Prince Harry
- James, Viscount Severn
- Peter Phillips
- David Armstrong-Jones, Viscount Linley
- Prince Richard, Duke of Gloucester
- Prince Edward, Duke of Kent
- Prince Michael of Kent

* Prince Philip's precedence over all males in the Kingdom was not automatic. Normally, the highest precedence would be held by the Prince of Wales; however, the Queen issued Order-in-Council granting the Duke of Edinburgh precedence over all men in the Kingdom. The only exception is when the Prince of Wales takes precedence over his father in official capacities, as provided by the Parliament.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenafran View Post
Thanks NGalitzine. So, peer = nobility?
Almost, but not precisely. A Peer is a noble by definition; however, not all nobles are peers.
The Peers' immediate family members - spouse, children, and usually male-line grandchildren - belong to nobility as well, but are not Peers in their own right.
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  #1172  
Old 05-03-2012, 05:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenafran View Post
It is fascinating! So I've got another question I see a lot of royalty being prince or princess of Greece and Denmark...how?
Members of the Greek Royal Family have the right to be titled as Princes and Princesses of Denmark as male-line descendants of Christian IX of Denmark.
George I of Greece was born a Danish Prince (son of Christian IX). The former King Constantine of Greece is George I's male line descendant; as such he, his descendants and other male-line descendants of George I, have the right to the title Prince or Princess of Denmark and the style of HH (His/Her Highness). Until 1953 constitutional changes, George I's descendants were also in the Danish Line of Succession.

Members of the Greek Royal Family are considered to be also members of the (extended) Danish Royal Family. Of course, King Constantine's family is rather more closely related to the Danish Royal Family now because his wife - Queen Anne-Marie - was born a Danish Princess herself (she is Queen Margrethe II's sister). Contrary to popular belief and despite that relation, her descendants would not have the right to the title of Princes and Princesses of Denmark if they hadn't been male-line descendants of Christian IX: titles are passed through male, not female line.
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  #1173  
Old 05-03-2012, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenafran View Post
It is fascinating! So I've got another question I see a lot of royalty being prince or princess of Greece and Denmark...how?
To put Philip into Artemisia's explanation. He is a great-grandson of Christian IX of Denmark as his grandfather was George I of the Hellenes (born Prince William of Denmark). As a result Philip was in the line of succession to the Greek throne (highest was about 4th or 5th I think) but further down the line to the Danish throne and even further down for the British throne in his own right.

I had a booklet for many years that actually had Charles referred to as a Prince of Greece and Denmark as well as Philip. It was done in 1951 when my mother was working in the British High Commission in Canberra and was on an official document from BP in the lead up to the upcoming tour of Australia to be carried out by The Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh. That tour was rudely interrupted when George VI died and the Duchess of Edinburgh became HM The Queen.

So even though Philip was born a Prince, he was born a Prince of Greece and Denmark not the UK. The Queen created him a Prince of the UK in 1957. As a woman she didn't automatically give any status or titles to her husband (the opposite in fact - she became The Duchess of Edinburgh when she married because she was marrying HRH The Duke of Edinburgh).

Simply put - males can pass on titles and styles to their wives and children and females can't.
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  #1174  
Old 05-03-2012, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
I had a booklet for many years that actually had Charles referred to as a Prince of Greece and Denmark as well as Philip. It was done in 1951 when my mother was working in the British High Commission in Canberra and was on an official document from BP in the lead up to the upcoming tour of Australia to be carried out by The Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh. That tour was rudely interrupted when George VI died and the Duchess of Edinburgh became HM The Queen.
Thanks for the additional information, Iluvbertie.
Wasn't the booklet's reference to Charles and Philip as Princes of Greece and Denmark and error though? Before marriage, Prince Philip renounced all the styles and titles he was born with for himself and his descendants; as such he, and certainly his descendants, wouldn't have any rights to the title of Prince/Princess of Denmark, would they?
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  #1175  
Old 05-03-2012, 06:25 PM
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I always thought that but as this came from BP to the British High Commission I have had doubts about the official nature of his renounciation. Did he send a formal request that was formally acknowledged by the King and the Parliament or was it a more informal situation whereby he told everyone he no longer wished to use the HRH Prince of Greece and Denmark title but still held them - like Louise and James are still really HRH Princess Louise and HRH Prince James but don't use those titles at there parents' request?
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  #1176  
Old 05-03-2012, 06:38 PM
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I still find it odd to see The Duchess of Edinburgh in reference to the Queen, as to me she has always been the Queen. I am aware that that was her title from marriage to her succession, but I have rarely seen it written down anywhere. To me the Duchess of Edinburgh, when I see it written down, I picture Sophie as we know that in the future she will have that title. (Well, if Charles keeps up his mother's promise to Edward.) Regarding that, James would not be The Earl of Wessex, would he? He would be James, Earl of Wessex as he has no HRH style (that he uses.)

It is even odder to see Prince Charles of Edinburgh and Princess Anne of Edinburgh. Charles had this title until his mother became Queen, and then he came The Duke of Cornwall, correct?

The styles and titles of our Royal family will confuse me, as does the order of precedence. I think it will always confuse me, so I just watch when the family are all together and I look at who walks behind and in front of whom as they walk down aisles and such! What confuses me slightly is when members arrive in order of precedence? For example, at the wedding of William and Catherine, Andrew's car was in front of Edward and then Anne's followed. This, however, was different from Zara's wedding as Edward's car arrived before Andrew's, which was followed by William. How does that work out? At the funeral of the Queen Mother, the cars after the funeral went Queen, Charles, Andrew, Edward, Anne etc. Who decides if it should be reversed?
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  #1177  
Old 05-03-2012, 06:50 PM
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Thank you all for clearing up a lot of misinformation that has been swimming around my brain.
Is this to say that the Duke of Edinburgh was a peer and the future monarch, was not? After they got married?
And, does this also mean, that there are no female peers?
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  #1178  
Old 05-03-2012, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Frelinghighness View Post
Thank you all for clearing up a lot of misinformation that has been swimming around my brain.
Is this to say that the Duke of Edinburgh was a peer and the future monarch, was not? After they got married?
And, does this also mean, that there are no female peers?
Yes, Prince Philp as Duke of Edinburgh was a peer and his wife the heiress presumptive to the throne Princess Elizabeth was a commoner.

There are some female hereditary peers in their own right. Countess Mountbatten of Burma and Lady Saltoun would be examples related to the BRF. Several ladies have received life peerages as well.
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  #1179  
Old 05-03-2012, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Frelinghighness View Post
Thank you all for clearing up a lot of misinformation that has been swimming around my brain.
Is this to say that the Duke of Edinburgh was a peer and the future monarch, was not? After they got married?

Yes Philip was a peer and The Queen, the future monarch wasn't.

Quote:
And, does this also mean, that there are no female peers?
No - some women have been created peers in their own right - e.g. Margaret Thatcher.

Lord Mountbatten's eldest daughter inherited the title from her father and so became a peeress in her own right.

I should have added that this happened because at the time Lord Mountbatten was given his peerage the chances of him having a son was remote as his title was created after the war and his daughters were already grown up.
They are rarer but not impossible.
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  #1180  
Old 05-03-2012, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Molly2101 View Post
I still find it odd to see The Duchess of Edinburgh in reference to the Queen, as to me she has always been the Queen. I am aware that that was her title from marriage to her succession, but I have rarely seen it written down anywhere. To me the Duchess of Edinburgh, when I see it written down, I picture Sophie as we know that in the future she will have that title. (Well, if Charles keeps up his mother's promise to Edward.) Regarding that, James would not be The Earl of Wessex, would he? He would be James, Earl of Wessex as he has no HRH style (that he uses.)
I did have a number of publications from the period 1947 - 1952 that referred to Elizabeth as HRH The Duchess of Edinburgh.

As for James - he won't be The Earl of Wessex when his father becomes The Duke of Edinburgh not because he doesn't use HRH but because his father will still be The Earl of Wessex. James currently is style Viscount Severn because that is his father's second title but Edward it The Viscount Severn.

It is a matter of who holds the substantive title - Edward compared to who holds the courtesy title - James. The holder of the substantive title has The while the courtesy title users doesn't. Sometimes you will see someone in James position referred to as 'the Viscount Severn' - little 't'. The only time James should be seen as 'The Viscount Severn' is when the writer starts a sentence with 'The Viscount Severn did xxxx' and even then there would be no reason to use the word 'The' at all.

Quote:
It is even odder to see Prince Charles of Edinburgh and Princess Anne of Edinburgh. Charles had this title until his mother became Queen, and then he came The Duke of Cornwall, correct?
Yes - from birth Charles was HRH Prince Charles of Edinburgh and is described so in those publications from 1948 - 1952 (or simply Prince Charles). The instant his grandfather died his titles change a lot. He became HRH The Prince Charles, HRH The Duke of Cornwall, HRH The Duke of Rothesay etc in Scotland (not used all at once) and Anne went from being HRH Princess Anne of Edinburgh to simply HRH The Princess Anne.

The same thing will happen with William and Harry in that when Charles becomes King they will both add the word 'The' in front of their styles so it will become The Prince William and The Prince Harry. Of course as William will also add most of his father's titles to his already existing titles and instantly would become HRH The Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge. If Harry has a title at that time there would be no other change for him than adding The if using Prince - although officially, except for Charles in Scotland they don't use HRH Prince/Princess anyway but HRH The Duke of Cambridge/York etc.
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