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  #1121  
Old 02-26-2012, 02:02 AM
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Thank you so much!
What does it mean? The King title is "stronger" than the Queen title?
I suppose just like in a deck of cards and in most games, a king beats a queen. In the UK when there is a King, there is a Queen Consort such as HMs parents were. As Elizabeth is the reigning Queen such as Elizabeth I and Victoria were, she is called the Queen Regnant. That is why sometimes you will see her signature on something as Elizabeth R or Elizabeth II R.

Queen Victoria's husband Albert was known as the Prince Consort and he was a Prince of Saxe-Colburg Gotha. During this era, however, I believe that the UK recognized foreign titles. I'm sure some of our more knowledgeable members here will correct me if I'm wrong. Philip, however, is not a Prince Consort but a Prince of the UK in his own right by the grace and favor of the Queen.

One more thing. There is no such beast as a stupid question. I've learned by leaps and bounds here by asking questions and having others correct me where I am wrong. Welcome to TRF!
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  #1122  
Old 02-26-2012, 02:19 AM
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Thank you so much for "cards" example
I only know that Denmark recognizes the Greek titles and I'm not sure about GB.
Would you please explain how related to each other Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, and Queen Sophia of Spain?
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  #1123  
Old 02-26-2012, 02:35 AM
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I have absolutely no clue how they are related but perhaps you can find the information in the Royal Genealogy threads. Royal Genealogy - The Royal Forums

Queen Elizabeth and Prince Philip though are distant cousins (3rd) I believe as they both have Queen Victoria as their great-great grandmother.
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  #1124  
Old 02-26-2012, 02:40 AM
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First off - the Greek-Danish thing.

In 1864 the younger son of the King of Denmark, who was 2nd in line to the Danish throne at the time, was chosen by the Greek people and the major powers as the new King of Greece. He did retain his Danish titles so all his children were Princes/Princesses of both Greece and Denmark including the only son of his fourth son - Philip. So Philip is a grandson of George I of the Hellenes whose father was King of Denmark and whose sisters, in time became the Empress of Russian and the Queen of Great Britain.

Sofia is the daughter of Philip's first cousin - Paul. Depending on how you calculate cousins they are either first cousins once removed or second cousins.

When Princess Marina of Greece and Denmark married HRH The Duke of Kent she was often referred to as Princess Marina but officially she was recognised as HRH The Duchess of Kent in Britain although outside Britain she was often given the official titles she held from birth.

Philip didn't actually have to renounce his titles but to take out British citizenship he did do so but... a later court decision revealed that he had in fact been born a British citizen and didn't have to go through all that paperwork. He was created Duke of Edinburgh to give him a peerage in 1947.
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  #1125  
Old 02-26-2012, 02:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
I have absolutely no clue how they are related but perhaps you can find the information in the Royal Genealogy threads. Royal Genealogy - The Royal Forums

Queen Elizabeth and Prince Philip though are distant cousins (3rd) I believe as they both have Queen Victoria as their great-great grandmother.

They also have Christian IX of Denmark as a common ancestor.

Christian - Alexandra - George V - George VI - Elizabeth.

Christian - William (George I of the Hellenes) - Andrew - Philip
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  #1126  
Old 02-26-2012, 02:49 AM
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Thank you so much!
Would you please explain me how it possible, if Prince Philip as a baby moved to the UK with parents?
Does it mean that The Queen Sofia is Philip's distant niece, right?
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  #1127  
Old 02-26-2012, 02:58 AM
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Philip's father was accused of treason by the government and was facing a death sentence so the British navy was sent in to get out both Andrew and the rest of the family. George V had already lost one first cousin and family to revolutionaries (Nicholas, Alexandra and the Russian children) and wasn't about to lose another first cousin (Andrew) and his wife and children.

Philip therefore left Greece aged 1 and moved actually to France after a short visit to his grandmother in England. His grandmother, Victoria was the First Marchioness of Milford Haven and lived in Kensington Palace. Due to money problems Philip and his family moved to Paris where one of his father's brothers was able to help the family out.

Later on Philip was sent to school in England for most of his schooling - he spent about two terms at school in Germany after all four of his sisters married German princes but he laughed at the Nazis too much it was felt safer to send him to Gordonstoun, which was just being established.


Queen Sofia is his second cousin. Her father is his first cousin.
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  #1128  
Old 02-26-2012, 03:03 AM
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Ahhhh... there is our esteemed resident history teacher Iluvbertie!!

Never ever annoying with questions but I know our mods here like to keep the threads on track
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  #1129  
Old 02-26-2012, 03:08 AM
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Yeah, I would like to attend Iluvbertie's lectures, it's unbelievable, but I have no more questions!
Thank you Osipi for patience
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  #1130  
Old 02-26-2012, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Queen Victoria's husband Albert was known as the Prince Consort and he was a Prince of Saxe-Colburg Gotha. During this era, however, I believe that the UK recognized foreign titles. I'm sure some of our more knowledgeable members here will correct me if I'm wrong. Philip, however, is not a Prince Consort but a Prince of the UK in his own right by the grace and favor of the Queen.
You are absolutely correct. The Prince Consort (with capital letters) is a title that does not automatically belong to the consort of the queen regnant. So far, there has only been one Prince Consort in British history - Prince Albert The Prince Consort.
Prince Philip is, however, prince consort as husband of the Queen Regnant; he just isn't The Prince Consort. And yes, he is Prince of the United Kingdom and the Duke of Edinburgh in his own right, independent of his wife's titles and styles. He was
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  #1131  
Old 02-26-2012, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by ironical View Post
Thank you so much!
What does it mean? The King title is "stronger" than the Queen title?
I don't think a king is "stronger" than a queen regnant, it's just that despite the fact that women were never forbidden from ascending the throne of England, the hierarchical system of the monarchy never thought of such a scenario and so there is no define rank to a male consort. Even in our day Prince Philip commented that "Constitutionally I don't exist".

When Mary I married Philip II of Spain the English Parliament made Philip a co-king together with his wife, it was a jure uxoris title, meaning he wasn't just a consort but a real king with all the political power of that position, however he was such only due to his marriage and when his wife died he stopped being a king.

Elizabeth I never married but its likely that if she had a similar arrangement would be made for her husband (and not wanting to share the power was probably one of the reasons for her not to marry).

After the glorious revolution and the depositing of James II the English and Scottish parliaments offer the crowns to Mary II and William III as join sovereigns despite Mary having the superior heredity claim, unlike Philip William III was king in his own right and stay as such after his wife death. Obviously their ascending to the throne wasn't under normal circumstances and the parliaments only offer the crown to William because he refused to rule through his wife.

Queen Anne was the first female monarch whose husband was her subject, Prince George was prince of Denmark and Norway and was made Duke of Cumberland by William III.

Strangely Albert didn't have any British title for the first 17 years of his marriage to Victoria, he was prince of the tiny German state Saxe-Coburg-Gotha and Duke of Saxony, only in 1957 Victoria created him a prince of the UK with the title Prince-Consort which was especially created for him.
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  #1132  
Old 02-26-2012, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Tiberivs View Post
I don't think a king is "stronger" than a queen regnant...
Brilliant post, just one addition: Lady Jane Grey's husband was her subject as well. I know Jane Grey is usually omitted from the list of English and British Monarchs; nevertheless, for the duration of those 13 days when Jane was Queen Regnant of England she flatly refused to grant her husband the title of the King, despite all his efforts.
Empress Matilda's second husband, Geoffrey V, Count of Anjou, was also her subject and there was never any question of elevating him to the rank of King. Of course, like Lady Jane Grey, Matilda was never crowned and is usually not included in the list of proper monarchs.
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  #1133  
Old 02-26-2012, 05:11 PM
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Yeah, I would like to attend Iluvbertie's lectures, it's unbelievable, but I have no more questions!
Thank you Osipi for patience
May I come to that lecture too?

And I thank you for your questions, as I learned a couple of things I didn't know either. So there's even more proof for you there's no such thing as a stupid question.

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  #1134  
Old 02-26-2012, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Tiberivs View Post
After the glorious revolution and the depositing of James II the English and Scottish parliaments offer the crowns to Mary II and William III as join sovereigns despite Mary having the superior heredity claim, unlike Philip William III was king in his own right and stay as such after his wife death. Obviously their ascending to the throne wasn't under normal circumstances and the parliaments only offer the crown to William because he refused to rule through his wife.

One major reason for this was William's own place in the line of succession to the British throne - 3rd at the time of the Glorious Revolution. They even dealt with the issue of Mary and William and William alone - a child of Mary and William would come before Anne in the line of succession but a child of William with someone else would come after Anne and her line.

Sure Mary didn't want to be Queen over her husband and he wouldn't accept the position as a mere consort but he also knew he was in a powerful position as 3rd in his own right. If they had decided to pass over Mary, over the issue of making his co-king he knew that if Anne didn't have any children who would be King in his own right anyway.

Philip, although in the line of succession to the British throne in his own right, is way down and moving further down (496 now).
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  #1135  
Old 02-26-2012, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Tiggersk8 View Post
May I come to that lecture too?

And I thank you for your questions, as I learned a couple of things I didn't know either. So there's even more proof for you there's no such thing as a stupid question.

Welcome to TRF!!
Go ahead
I would like to say thank you to Iluvbertie, Tiberivs, Osipi for your posts! It's amazing
When Prince Charles and William will be the Kings, will Kate and Camilla be created the Queen Consorts?
Thank you
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  #1136  
Old 02-26-2012, 10:27 PM
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They won't need to be 'created' Queen Consort. That title is automatic. The wife takes the feminine form of her husband's titles in Britain e.g. Kate is Duchess of Cambridge because William is the Duke of Cambridge. Had William not been given a title in his own right then Kate would have become Princess William. Camilla is legally The Princess of Wales although she isn't using that title but is using the feminine of the title Charles has held for the longest period of time.

Even the Queen used Duchess of Edinburgh from her marriage until her accession as the wife of The Duke of Edinburgh.
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  #1137  
Old 02-29-2012, 09:21 PM
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A plaque unveiled by The Earl and Countess of Wessex commemorating the Diamond Jubilee | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

I've noticed in this photo (link above) the title "Prince and Princess Edward" before "Earl and Countess of Wessex.'' Now, I realize that this is their title but I didn't think that the P&P Edward part was ever actually used. There's another photo from today of just Sophie unveiling a plaque and the "Princess Edward" part was there, too, along with "The Countess of Wessex." Can anybody comment on this because I've never noticed it before?
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  #1138  
Old 02-29-2012, 09:54 PM
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Sophie is Her Royal Highness, the Princess Edward, Countess of Wessex officially. You see when using her name HRH. Sophie, Countess of Wessex.
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  #1139  
Old 03-01-2012, 04:26 AM
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There's another plaque somewhere that says Princess Edward. (I think it might be in southern Ontario somewhere, related to her colonelcy-in-chief of the Lincoln and Welland Regiment, but I'm not sure about that.)

ETA: It's in Ontario, but at Toronto General Hospital. See picture 2 in this post.
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  #1140  
Old 03-01-2012, 05:04 AM
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BP in the Court Circular only ever uses the official titles and never refers to Sophie as The Princess Edward (they don't refer to Edward as The Prince Edward either since he was raised from commoner status to that of a peer of the realm when created The Earl of Wessex).

These plaques say more about the ignorance of the people creating them and viewing them in the future than accuracy. They use the title The Prince Edward and/or The Princess Edward assuming people won't know who HRH The Earl of Wessex and/or HRH The Countess of Wessex actually are.
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