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  #1041  
Old 11-23-2011, 01:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Baroness of Books View Post
This is how I understand it: William was given the title of Duke of Cambridge so Kate would specifically not be addressed as Princess William, but the Duchess of Cambridge. Therefore that is her title, not Princess William, although she does has the rank of a princess. And William is still a prince, with the additional title of a royal duke.

When or if William becomes the Prince of Wales, Kate will be addressed as the Princess of Wales. At no time is she ever addressed as Princess Catherine.
Catherine uses her Christian name only in cases she needs a family name. Then she is by decree of the queen about her descendants who need a family name Catherine Mountbatten-Windsor. But these cases are very, very rare. Because once you have a title you use it. Catherine as wife of HRH Prince William of Wales, Duke of Cambridge etc. shares his titles and style. Thus she is HRH Princess William of Wales, Duchess of Cambridge etc., in short HRH The Duchess of Cambridge. In case of a divorce, HM decreed that the former wife should loose the sharing of his style and titles but could do as it is usus with divorced wifes of peers. Thus the former HRH The Princess of Wales became Lady Diana Mountbatten-Windsor, Princess of Wales on divorce, in short Diana, Princess of Wales.

There is debate about the question if the title of a Prince/ss of Scotland still exists except for the heir to the throne and his wife. But even then Catherien would go by the more senior title of "of Cambridge".

Note: the title prince/princess despicts minor members of the Royal House. If the prince/princess is not a child but a grandchild of the monarch, the line within the Royal House is added. So it is "The Prince Charles" but Prince William "of Wales" (as he is from the Wales, the senior line, of the House) or Princess Beatrice "of York", as she is a grandchild of the monarch from her fathers "York"-line. But in any case these princes/ses are only minor members of the family. In case of women, with the exception of the eldest daughter of the monarch, no further titles are on offer as it was common to grant the husband on their marriage day a peerage (if he didn't have any of his own) which the princess could share. Think HRH Princess Margaret, Countess of Snowdon. For princes of the senior Wales-line (as future children of the monarch) or children of the monarch a peerage is given on their wedding day: the day they officially are not only members of the RF but elevated to a peer of the monarch.

So being a Royal peer is much more than being just a member of the RF with the right to the title of prince. Thus William was elevated to that rank and of course uses this depiction of his higher rank. And Catherine follows him. HRH The Duchess of Cambridge is a higher title than HRH Princess William of Wales. And William of course is still Prince William of the Wales-line of the Royal House, but he uses this title not any more. But he did no loose it in anay way. He will only loose it the moment his father becomes king and change it to the higher title of "The Prince William" as child of the monarch.
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  #1042  
Old 11-23-2011, 02:43 AM
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Originally Posted by PrincePatrick View Post
At what point was she created a Princess in her own right?
I don't think it was meant in that way. One of the OED definitions for "prince" is "A (male) sovereign ruler; a monarch, a king. Now chiefly arch[aic] and hist[orical], or in rhetorical use." In that same sense, the accession proclamations for new monarchs refer to the new king or queen as a "royal prince(ss)." The Queen was called "the royal princess Elizabeth the second" in hers, for example. One of the lesser-used verses of the national anthem also calls her "our mother, prince and friend." Sometimes a prince could just be any particularly eminent person. Dukes are sometimes called "Most High, Potent, and Noble Princes" in formal documents.
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  #1043  
Old 11-23-2011, 03:13 AM
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Thank you so much Wbenson! That makes perfect sense! I think we try so hard to make sure we know exactly which box these royals fit into that it's easy to forget that some titles have different meanings, depending on the context.

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Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
And William of course is still Prince William of the Wales-line of the Royal House, but he uses this title not any more. But he did no loose it in anay way. He will only loose it the moment his father becomes king and change it to the higher title of "The Prince William" as child of the monarch.
Moreover they will become known as Their Royal Highnesses the Duke and Duchess of Cornwall and Cambridge immediately upon Charles' accession, if only for a brief moment in time until they become Their Royal Highnesses The Prince and Princess of Wales (EEEEK! Can't wait!!! ...Not that I would be happy upon Her Majesty's passing)

It will be interesting to see what title they're going by when their children are born. Say Charles is King and the the children are born before they are created Prince and Princess of Wales...will the children forever be Princes and Princesses of Cornwall and Cambridge until William is King, or will they switch to Princes and Princesses of Wales. Logic would tell me they switch to Wales, but how confusing for all involved...They go from being "The Cambridges" to "The Cornwall-Cambridges" back to "The Waleses" and finally it doesn't matter anymore, their children will just be "The Prince" or "The Princess"
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  #1044  
Old 11-23-2011, 04:03 AM
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As for the "Cornwall-Cambridges" somehow I doubt they would merge the two names. So when Charles becomes King, William will be known as The Duke of Cornwall and separately The Duke of Cambridge I believe. Then eventually The Prince of Wales (if that happens). Depending upon when they have children, they may not be known as Princes and Princess' until their grandfather is King.
I don't think such surname changing would actually go on, they'd find a way for them to be known as one surname and that's it.
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  #1045  
Old 11-23-2011, 04:47 AM
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Originally Posted by mia_lanes View Post
The hierarchy is as follows:
Prince/Princess
Duke/Duchess
Earl/Countess
Viscount/Viscountess
Count/Countess
Please don't confuse or mix titles and ranking of the British Nobility with titles and precedence of members of the Royal Family.
'Duke-Marquess-Earl-Viscount-Baron' in that order relates to the nobility; royal hierarchy is generally determined by distance from the Sovereign, not by title.

Prince Edward may have the title 'Earl of Wessex' but in precedence he comes before both the Princesses of York and the Dukes of Gloucester and Kent because he is a son of the Sovereign while the female Yorks are granddaughters, and Gloucester & Kent are cousins.

Prince Michael of Kent, being the youngest son of the 4th son of George V has lower precedence than the Dukes of Gloucester and Kent because Gloucester is a son of the 3rd son and Kent is Michael's older brother. It would make no difference if Prince Michael acquired another title or titles, his position would remain the same.

NB.. the title of Count does not exist in the British Nobility, the equivalent is Earl. The confusion arises because the wife of an Earl is a Countess.
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  #1046  
Old 11-23-2011, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post

As for the "Cornwall-Cambridges" somehow I doubt they would merge the two names. So when Charles becomes King, William will be known as The Duke of Cornwall and separately The Duke of Cambridge I believe. Then eventually The Prince of Wales (if that happens). Depending upon when they have children, they may not be known as Princes and Princess' until their grandfather is King.
I don't think such surname changing would actually go on, they'd find a way for them to be known as one surname and that's it.

The precedent for the changing of names happened in 1901.

George V started that year as HRH The Duke of York. From late January until early November he was officially known as HRH The Duke of Cornwall and York (they were combined) and then from November as HRH The Prince of Wales. Then in May 1910 HM The King.

His wife took the feminine forms of those titles of course and the children changed as well.

So the future Edward VIII and George VI and their siblings went from HRH Prince/Princess xxxx of York to HRH Prince/Princess xxxxx of Cornwall and York to HRH Prince/Princess xxxxx of Wales and finally HRH The Prince/Princess xxxxxx.

As it happened then it would happen to William and Kate's offspring as well.
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  #1047  
Old 11-23-2011, 09:03 AM
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But the name merging isn't actually set in stone, there's just a previous case where it occurred.
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  #1048  
Old 11-23-2011, 09:14 AM
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Actually, one of Victoria's sons also had two Dukedoms.

Alfred, was known as His Royal Highness The Prince Alfred Ernest Albert, Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Ulster, Earl of Kent, Knight of the Most Noble Order of the Garter, etc.

In addition, Frederick, Prince of Wales was known as Duke of Cornwall and Edinburgh before he became Prince of Wales in 1729. He never became King but his son ruled as George III.

I believe there are other precedents as well. So if and when Charles becomes King, there is a chance that William will become Duke of Cornwal and Cambridge.
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  #1049  
Old 11-23-2011, 10:29 AM
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Personally, I think it has a nice ring to it :) Thank you Iluvbertie for clarifying on the matter of the childrens' titles changing as well. And, thank you Warren or Zonk for consolidating my posts :) ('Twas a tipsy evening indeed)
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  #1050  
Old 11-23-2011, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
Actually, one of Victoria's sons also had two Dukedoms.

Alfred, was known as His Royal Highness The Prince Alfred Ernest Albert, Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Ulster, Earl of Kent, Knight of the Most Noble Order of the Garter, etc.

In addition, Frederick, Prince of Wales was known as Duke of Cornwall and Edinburgh before he became Prince of Wales in 1729. He never became King but his son ruled as George III.

I believe there are other precedents as well. So if and when Charles becomes King, there is a chance that William will become Duke of Cornwal and Cambridge.

The reason for Alfred having the titles that way is that one was as a sovereign duke - Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha while the other was a Duke of the UK.

With both George III and George V they held two dukedoms in the UK and thus they were combined.

George III even created his sons with combined dukedoms.
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  #1051  
Old 11-23-2011, 04:02 PM
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Myself, I doubt that William in any way tried to press his grandmother to make Kate a princess in her own right. It just doesn't seem to be in keeping with the way the young couple operates, and William seems to know he's already privileged, seems grateful for the degree of status he already has, has no desire to create a more lordly presence or more power for himself and Kate. I'm a huge fan of how he conducts himself in public, and I do believe that he respects his grandmother in the most affectionate way.

Begging for a huge change in tradition that only benefits oneself (and doesn't even make sense, since Kate has no experience being a princess) does not seem like William's style.
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  #1052  
Old 11-26-2011, 01:18 AM
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I think this is a very interesting thing to read on. I have always held a interest on how such things work. I understand that the last time a person who married a monarch was elevated to the rank of a prince of the united kingdom was Prince Phillip. Before his elevation he was Phillip, Duke of Edinburgh and I Believe 5 years into her reign Elizabeth made her spouse a Prince in his own right. I have a feeling Charles will do the same for Camilla and William will do it for Catherine. It seems fitting that the Monarch would do that for a spouse not a in law. I would say the Cornwall title will over ride the other titles just like Wales will one day. In the end will be when we see the official title he was given come back. I say Catherine will be Her Majesty, Queen Catherine, the Duchess of Cambridge as Williams widow one day. Maybe a second child will be given the title of Cambridge. Camillia will be a princess consort according to her wishes and not Queen so who knows what she would be called upon Charles death because the Cornwall is not his it is the stepping stone and the money maker for a prince of Wales.
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  #1053  
Old 11-26-2011, 01:28 AM
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Now penning my last comment made me want to post the question I asked before. Let's say Charles makes Camilla a Princess of the UK and during his reign and she is Princess Camillia, The Princess Consort during this time. Since Charledhas not been given a title like William has in his own right what will Camillia be know as if Charles passes before she does. The basic could be Princess Camellia, Princess of the United Kingdom. Any suggestions.
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  #1054  
Old 11-26-2011, 01:29 AM
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When William becomes King he will cease to be Duke of Cambridge so unless Kate is divorced she will also cease to be Duchess of Cambridge at the same time. The Queen Mother and Queen Mary both ceased to be Duchesses when they became Queen Consorts as their husband's title had merged with the Crown.
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  #1055  
Old 11-26-2011, 01:32 AM
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Did not think about that. Please read the question about Camillia and her title if she out lives a King Charles.

Was Queen Mary just Queen Mary so I guess Camilla could just be Princess Camillia.
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  #1056  
Old 11-26-2011, 04:04 AM
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Queen Mary became Queen Mary the day her husband became King and she remained Queen Mary until the day she died. That is also what happened with Queen Alexandra. But the Queen Mum was slightly different as it was felt that it would be too confusing to have two Queen Elizabeth's so she tookt the more formal title of The Queen Mother (although the two previously mentioned Queen's were also entitled to use that title but didn't do so on a daily basis).

Camilla - who knows. As Britain doesn't recognise morganatic marriage she will become Queen Consort when Charles ascends the throne - unless legislation is passed to strip her of the title and thus change a millienia old tradition that a wife takes the title and rank of her husband in Britain. Charles would then have to issue LPs to create her Princess Consort. Using the title Duchess of Cornwall is different as Charles is The Duke of Cornwall - and has been for nearly 60 years but he will cease to hold that title the moment he ascends the throne so Camilla will also cease to have the femine version of those titles. She will instantly become Queen Camilla and then they will have to backtrack.
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  #1057  
Old 11-26-2011, 10:45 AM
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If I am not mistaken like it is her choice to be a duchess I am sure she has asked to be a princess consort not a Queen.
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  #1058  
Old 11-26-2011, 11:11 AM
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Well, given recent comments by the Prince Of Wales and by Camilla herself, I guess we will just have to wait and see. Personally I think she should use her rightful title when the time comes and be HM Queen Camilla.
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  #1059  
Old 11-26-2011, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by DukeOfAster View Post
If I am not mistaken like it is her choice to be a duchess I am sure she has asked to be a princess consort not a Queen.
It was Charles who 'blurted' out the whole Princess Consort arrangement, and the press has brought to like recently that it isn't the 'now' case for Camilla to be just The Princess Consort, she will be Queen. She is the wife of the future King therefore she is the future Queen.

If Camilla outlives Charles, her title may depend entirely upon Prince William when he ascends the throne.
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  #1060  
Old 11-26-2011, 03:30 PM
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If Camilla outlives Charles, her title may depend entirely upon Prince William when he ascends the throne.
I doubt that very much. William will go with tradition because he surely will not wish to introduce the past in his future reign - which he would do if he treated Camilla in any negative way. His mother is gone and Camilla has been a very good wife to his father. Plus William himself knows firsthand what love is all about - he loves and is loved in return, he supports and is supported in return - he knows what makes a good and makes a bad marriage and thus he should be able to understand his father better than most people.
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