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  #981  
Old 07-12-2011, 10:56 PM
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I think the previous poster was alluding to the fact that William would inherit the Edinburgh title if Philip AND Charles both died before the Queen. Once William became King, it would merge again with the Crown.
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  #982  
Old 07-15-2011, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Queen Penelope View Post
As it stands right now, Prince Edward is to be Duke of Edinburgh upon the passing of both the Queen & The Duke. That was announced on Edward's wedding day. It was speculated here in the forums that all interested parties must have agreed to it (if that is honored or not is apparently another matter).
Oh I'm sure the Queen and Duke's wishes will be honored.
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  #983  
Old 08-26-2011, 01:10 AM
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New Style of Address for Sarah Ferguson

In the wake of all that has happened, I think it might be a good time to discussing alternative or new styles of address for Sarah Ferguson.

She currently is Sarah, Duchess of York, in accordance with Letters Patent issued by HM.

Given that she has rather muddied the former title and current style of Duchess of York, and presuming that HM may wish to entertain a change in that status, what is your considered opinion as to what style of address might be best for Sarah Ferguson?

My own suggestion is to revive the Duchess of Windsor title in (obviously) non-Royal form. It would clearly delineate someone who has egregiously failed any vestiges of honor toward the Crown, and would effectively end the semi-Royal idiocy that she perpetuates regarding the York title & style.

Quite frankly, I think that the Queen has been beyond patient in watching Sarah drag the titles and styles of HM's own parents through degradation. With the jubilee coming up, I would expect that HM would like to place a final end point on the whole tiresome Sarah situation.

So what does the collective wisdom of TRF think? What other style - not title, but style - might be appropriate, now that Sarah has wrung out every bit of life and dignity from York?
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  #984  
Old 08-26-2011, 01:38 AM
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How about Mrs. Sarah Windsor? Or Mrs. Sarah York?

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In the wake of all that has happened, I think it might be a good time to open a thread discussing alternative or new styles of address for Sarah Ferguson.
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  #985  
Old 08-26-2011, 01:47 AM
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I think the new status address should be "Ms. Sarah Windsor" and let it be that. The "Ms." address would actually end up denoting that she was previously married and "Windsor" would actually denote that she was married to Andrew, connecting her to the RF without a title.
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  #986  
Old 08-26-2011, 01:53 AM
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She isn't a Windsor and neither is she a Duchess.

Why not just Ms Sarah Ferguson? Everyone refers to her as Sarah Ferguson anyway.
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  #987  
Old 08-26-2011, 02:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
How about Mrs. Sarah Windsor? Or Mrs. Sarah York?
Legally, I don't see there being any changes in the style Sarah, Duchess of York as that is the proper style for a divorced wife of a peer. However, perhaps some kind of agreement could be drawn up that in any future commercial dealings, she would be restricted to the use of Sarah Mountbatten-Windsor or Sarah York or even Sarah Ferguson so as not to allude to a title that befits a peer of the UK?

Now that the hoopla has sort of died down over Sarah's
latest ventures, perhaps this is something that could be taken into consideration before other ventures pop up. Also, if other ventures are not popping up, a little cash encouragement might even sweeten the deal on Sarah's end.
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  #988  
Old 08-26-2011, 02:32 AM
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Well, I am not in favour of reviving the Windsor title for any royals or ex-royals who are or become infamous. I think Sarah will always have the Duchess of York title one way or another - and I mean that in the sense that if she ever re-married it would be to Andrew. Either that or they remain for the rest fo their lives un-married.
Having said that, if Andrew did ever find....again...some star struck woman with such a lack of common sense as to be prepared to marry him, we would have two Duchess of Yorks on the same planet and this, I think would be confusing. So for me, the question is more about whether consideration should be given to devising a way of providing the ex-wives of royal princes with brand new titles in the same way that Denmark dealt with Princess Alexandra on her divorce from Prince Joachim. I can only think that Sarah should have been allowed to use either the Inverness or Killyleagh title so she would now be known either as Sarah, Countess of Inverness or Sarah, Baroness Killyleagh.
I agree with Madame Royale, though. Why not develop abit of modesty and just call yourself Ms Sarah Ferguson.
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  #989  
Old 08-26-2011, 02:37 AM
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We have to remember too that in the UK wives are afforded the feminine title of their husbands and may retain a style of such after a divorce. The only women that would ever be allowed the title and style of Duchess of Windsor are those that marry a Duke of Windsor as Wallis Simpson did.

It may not be too far off too that even if Sarah does retain the use of Duchess of York, Andrew himself may be titled primarily as the Duke of Edinburgh after the passing of his parents.

I'm not sure about this but I would be willing to bet that as a divorced wife of a peer, she probably couldn't use the style of her ex husband if he attained the title after the divorce? Perhaps Diarist can fill in the blanks here.
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  #990  
Old 08-26-2011, 03:01 AM
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Andrew will need quite a few deaths and other things to happen before he could be Duke of Edinburgh.
Currently he is 4th in line to the Edinburgh title, after Charles, William and Harry - just as he is 4th in line to the throne itself.
For Andrew to inherit Edinburgh as his major title Charles, William and Harry all have to die and either William or Harry have a legitimate daughter to become the monarch so that Andrew could inherit Edinburgh.
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  #991  
Old 08-26-2011, 03:17 AM
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You are so right! I'm just waking up and not enough coffee in me yet (and no doughnuts in the house either). Besides, I had Andrew and Edward confused. Hasn't it been stated that HM and the DoE said something along the lines of passing the DoE title through Charles to Edward? Anyhoo... my mistake.
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  #992  
Old 08-26-2011, 03:28 AM
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That is a pity cause I thought that was a great idea it would give Andrew space from Sarah. I think there is no reason why she couldn't call herself Ms Sarah Ferguson. And people either call her that or Madam as she is entitled. I actually think she has pretty much worn out the use of her title, things have moved on and the younger ones are coming up and her daughters who don't hold as much interest as Prince Harry and William aren't going to give her the mileage she needs. If Andrew did remarry then I think Sarah would be forced not to use the title there can't be two Duchesses of York! Besides Andrew's wife would be a HRH wouldn't she? Not that I can see that happening although according to rumours he has wanted to marry other women they just haven't wanted to marry into the family. I don't believe Sarah and Andrew will remarry although I'm sure Sarah would love it and then her title would be reinstated and she wouldn't have the worries she had. Andrew has more money now then he did before and maybe she looks at Charles and Camilla and think with the changes in the family now would be a great time to come back into the fold. Problem for her is that with her misuse over the years of the title and the bad name she has now caused it to have the RF would never welcome her back. I would think with all of Charles's titles etc the Dof E title would be passed to someone else. When Princess Beatrice or Eugenie gets married do they keep their Princess titles? Or will they get given something else?
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  #993  
Old 08-26-2011, 03:34 AM
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Ms. Sarah Ferguson - she doesn't deserve anything else.
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  #994  
Old 08-26-2011, 03:47 AM
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At the moment, the only style she deserves is Ms. Sarah Windsor at the most. There's no point in really bothering with the title since she is after all, old news and the younger generation is of more interest. She had her heyday and she really should be compelled (if she refuses to cooperate) to give up the courtesy title. She's done so much damage to it that I don't see her doing anything to really rebuild it.

If Andrew remarried, Sarah would be pushed to the side since the new wife would be "HRH, New Wife, The Duchess of York" and would end up with the jewels, dresses, press, and patronages. Being a 'real' royal with a 'real' title would in fact pretty much edge Sarah to the margins since the press would have a new royal to fawn over and with a few kids, Andrew's attention would be all the more distracted with his newly developing family.
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  #995  
Old 08-26-2011, 04:31 AM
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Originally Posted by AristoCat View Post
At the moment, the only style she deserves is Ms. Sarah Windsor at the most. There's no point in really bothering with the title since she is after all, old news and the younger generation is of more interest. She had her heyday and she really should be compelled (if she refuses to cooperate) to give up the courtesy title. She's done so much damage to it that I don't see her doing anything to really rebuild it.
I don't think they could change the the way a divorced wife of a peer can be styled as for just one single case. What would be true for one, would have to be true to all others and to be honest, I think this is the first time ever that a misuse of a title or style has come about because of commercial ventures. What could happen is that a ruling could be made stating that in the future no title or style of a divorced member of the BRF can ever be used in a commercial venture. This doesn't single out Sarah but would also prevent anything like this happening in the future. It would then be that in her private and social life, she is still able to use Sarah, Duchess of York but would be restricted to using Ms. Sarah Ferguson commercially. That's my thinking anyways.

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Originally Posted by AristoCat View Post
If Andrew remarried, Sarah would be pushed to the side since the new wife would be "HRH, New Wife, The Duchess of York" and would end up with the jewels, dresses, press, and patronages. Being a 'real' royal with a 'real' title would in fact pretty much edge Sarah to the margins since the press would have a new royal to fawn over and with a few kids, Andrew's attention would be all the more distracted with his newly developing family.
Should Andrew remarry tomorrow, his new wife would be titled HRH The Duchess of York (no first name). Sarah would still remain Sarah, Duchess of York. Its very possible that it could happen and if it makes Andrew happy, I'm all for it.
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  #996  
Old 08-26-2011, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by NotAPretender View Post
She currently is Sarah, Duchess of York, in accordance with Letters Patent issued by HM.
She is NOT Sarah, Duchess of York by LP.

She is Sarah, Duchess of York according to the normal styling of the divorced wife of a peer and nothing to do with any LPs issued by the Queen.

In August 1996 HM issued LPs stripping both Diana and Sarah of the HRH but did nothing about their styling as divorced wives as that was outside her remit.

Sarah actually styled herself HRH Sarah, Duchess of York from her divorce until after Diana's, as she was entitled to do - it was Diana's divorced that saw the Queen issue the LPs stripping both women of the HRH.

Both then, or in Sarah's case, continued to use the standard style of the divorced wife of a peer.

Quote:
Given that she has rather muddied the former title and current style of Duchess of York, and presuming that HM may wish to entertain a change in that status, what is your considered opinion as to what style of address might be best for Sarah Ferguson?
If HM was considering a change in title she would have done so much earlier but...as it stands Sarah doesn't have title at all and simply uses the style of a divorced wife as a peer and that is determined by legislation and common law and practice - not HM.

Quote:
My own suggestion is to revive the Duchess of Windsor title in (obviously) non-Royal form. It would clearly delineate someone who has egregiously failed any vestiges of honor toward the Crown, and would effectively end the semi-Royal idiocy that she perpetuates regarding the York title & style.
What you are suggesting is raising Sarah's status - by making her a peeress in her own right. In fact as the first holder of this new creation Sarah would be able to have a seat in the House of Lords - and as a non-royal - the family wouldn't have any way to stop her.

Quote:
Quite frankly, I think that the Queen has been beyond patient in watching Sarah drag the titles and styles of HM's own parents through degradation. With the jubilee coming up, I would expect that HM would like to place a final end point on the whole tiresome Sarah situation.
You are also assuming that HM sees the situation the same way you do. As she has never spoken on the issue we don't know how she sees the situation. She probably knows way more about the situation then you or I. As for dragging the title of York through the mire - he own son also doesn't hold it with any honour but are you also suggesting that HM ask the parliament to pass the legislation to strip Andrew of the York title as well - his antics are just as appalling, if not more so than Sarah's given that he is HRH, the son of the monarch, brother of the next monarch and uncle of the one after that.

Quote:
So what does the collective wisdom of TRF think? What other style - not title, but style - might be appropriate, now that Sarah has wrung out every bit of life and dignity from York?

As the divorced wife of a peer she has every right to style herself the same way as everyone else in that position. The Queen can't stop her - she doesn't have the power to do so.
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  #997  
Old 08-26-2011, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Meadow View Post
If Andrew did remarry then I think Sarah would be forced not to use the title there can't be two Duchesses of York! Besides Andrew's wife would be a HRH wouldn't she?
There wouldn't be two Duchesses of York as Sarah isn't The Duchess of York. She is Sarah, Duchess of York. The new wife would be HRH The Duchess of York. As happened with Earl Spencer and his various wives - while they were his wife they were styled as The Countess Spencer but when divorced xxxx, Countess Spencer while his new wife used The Countess Spencer.

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I would think with all of Charles's titles etc the Dof E title would be passed to someone else.
See The future of the Duke of Edinburgh title for the most likely future of the Edinburgh title.

Quote:
When Princess Beatrice or Eugenie gets married do they keep their Princess titles? Or will they get given something else?
They were born with the title and will keep it all their lives.

The best precedent would be Princess Alexandra of Kent. Like Beatrice and Eugenie she was born the daughter of a younger son who didn't go on to become King but she is still Princess Alexandra so it is reasonable to assume that Beatrice and Eugenie will keep their Princess styles throughout their lives but like Alexandra, Anne and Margaret will also take the names from their husband e.g. HRH Princess Beatrice, Mrs John Smith and HRH Princess Eugenie, Mrs Bill Brown
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  #998  
Old 08-26-2011, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
Ms. Sarah Ferguson - she doesn't deserve anything else.
Agree 100%

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...The Duke of York and the Earl of Wessex are still, respectively, TRH Prince Andrew/Prince Edward of Great Britain and Ireland...
Slight correction to your post,I take it you meant Northern Ireland & not Ireland.
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  #999  
Old 08-26-2011, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
Ms. Sarah Ferguson - she doesn't deserve anything else.
Complete agreement there. She's thoroughly disgraced the York title/style/name. Given all the hard work that QE the QM did during her lifetime that brought a shine to the York title/style/name, Sarah should hang her head in shame that it's become a byword for greedy grubbiness.

It's why I think that prior to the Queen's Jubilee next year, it would be opportune to take steps to permanently put her use/egregious misuse of the titles/styles etc on ice. And the best way, IMO, is a complete change and downgrade.
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  #1000  
Old 08-26-2011, 11:08 AM
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She is NOT Sarah, Duchess of York by LP.

You are also assuming that HM sees the situation the same way you do. As she has never spoken on the issue we don't know how she sees the situation. She probably knows way more about the situation then you or I. As for dragging the title of York through the mire - he own son also doesn't hold it with any honour but are you also suggesting that HM ask the parliament to pass the legislation to strip Andrew of the York title as well - his antics are just as appalling, if not more so than Sarah's given that he is HRH, the son of the monarch, brother of the next monarch and uncle of the one after that.
I agree with you Iluvbertie, neither Andrew or Sarah have lived up to their billing or done their titles justice. We all know Sarah's faults, failings and scandals, but it's interesting that when they were a couple Andrew's behaviour was fairly impeccable. He had a reputation before, and he has had his fair share of controversies since. She obviously gave him some sort of contentment and stability. I don't think Sarah's style will really change unless Andrew remarries. At that point Andrew may ask her to restyle herself more out of respect of his new wife than anything else.
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