Questions about British Styles and Titles 1: Ending 2022


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I guess Prince Harry won't be invested as anything until Charles is king.
 
I maintain that LPs are only needed for the creation of peerages. All other styles and titles, including prince/ss can bestowed by warrant, press release or verbal declaration. Princess Alice was style as a princess without LPs as was the Queen Mother on her death
Princess Alice was never a true Princess in her own right.
When Prince Henry, Duke of Gloucester died, Alice got the Queen's permission to use the the title and style Her Royal HIghness Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester, instead of Her Royal Highness The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester. Princess Alice followed the example of her sister-in-law, Princess Marina, who also didn't want to be known as the Dowager Duchess; the difference, however, was that Marina was a Princess (of Greece and Denmark) from birth, while Alice was not.

Alice was allowed to be known as Princess Alice as a courtesy from the Queen, who felt that, as a wife (widow, by the time) of a British Prince, there were no obstacles for the Duchess to use the title.However, again, Alice was never legally a Princess since she wasn't born one (like Marina) or created a Princess by Letters Parent.


The Queen Mother was never, ever a Princess in her own right. She was Lady Bows-Lyon from 1904 to 1923, The Duchess of York from 1923 to 1936, The Queen (Consort) from 1936 to 1952 and The Queen Mother from 1952 to 2002. The last title is automatic for a Dowager Queen Consort who is also the mother of the present Monarch, so no Letters Patent were indeed required. For instance, Queen Mary was The Queen Mother from 1936 to 1952 (during the reigns of Edward VIII and George VI). Usually, the additions "Consort", "Dowager" or "Mother" are not used and all four types of Queens (Queen Regnant, Queen Consort, Queen Mother and Queen Dowager) are simply known as Her Majesty Queen Name.

The only reason Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother actually used the addition was to avoid any confusion with her daughter, also Queen Elizabeth.
 
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I maintain that LPs are only required for the creation of peerages. All other styles and titles, including prince/ss can bestowed by warrant, press release or verbal declaration. Princess Alice (Dowager Duchess of Gloucester ) was style as a princess without LPs as was the Queen Mother on her death
 
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My point is they were both style as princesses without the need for LPs. HM's will and pleasure was all that was required.
 
Princess Alice was never a true Princess in her own right.
When Prince Henry, Duke of Gloucester died, Alice got the Queen's permission to use the the title and style Her Royal HIghness Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester, instead of Her Royal Highness The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester. Princess Alice followed the example of her sister-in-law, Princess Marina, who also didn't want to be known as the Dowager Duchess; the difference, however, was that Marina was a Princess (of Greece and Denmark) from birth, while Alice was not.

Alice was allowed to be known as Princess Alice as a courtesy from the Queen, who felt that, as a wife (widow, by the time) of a British Prince, there were no obstacles for the Duchess to use the title.However, again, Alice was never legally a Princess since she wasn't born one (like Marina) or created a Princess by Letters Parent.


The Queen Mother was never, ever a Princess in her own right. She was Lady Bows-Lyon from 1904 to 1923, The Duchess of York from 1923 to 1936, The Queen (Consort) from 1936 to 1952 and The Queen Mother from 1952 to 2002. The last title is automatic for a Dowager Queen Consort who is also the mother of the present Monarch, so no Letters Patent were indeed required. For instance, Queen Mary was The Queen Mother from 1936 to 1952 (during the reigns of Edward VIII and George VI). Usually, the additions "Consort", "Dowager" or "Mother" are not used and all four types of Queens (Queen Regnant, Queen Consort, Queen Mother and Queen Dowager) are simply known as Her Majesty Queen Name.

The only reason Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother actually used the addition was to avoid any confusion with her daughter, also Queen Elizabeth.

So you appear to be saying that LPs are not needed to create the style and titles of (Prince/ss) other than peerages or maybe I'm missing something.
 
Princess Alice was never a true Princess in her own right.
When Prince Henry, Duke of Gloucester died, Alice got the Queen's permission to use the the title and style Her Royal HIghness Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester, instead of Her Royal Highness The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester. Princess Alice followed the example of her sister-in-law, Princess Marina, who also didn't want to be known as the Dowager Duchess; the difference, however, was that Marina was a Princess (of Greece and Denmark) from birth, while Alice was not.

Alice was allowed to be known as Princess Alice as a courtesy from the Queen, who felt that, as a wife (widow, by the time) of a British Prince, there were no obstacles for the Duchess to use the title.However, again, Alice was never legally a Princess since she wasn't born one (like Marina) or created a Princess by Letters Parent.


The Queen Mother was never, ever a Princess in her own right. She was Lady Bows-Lyon from 1904 to 1923, The Duchess of York from 1923 to 1936, The Queen (Consort) from 1936 to 1952 and The Queen Mother from 1952 to 2002. The last title is automatic for a Dowager Queen Consort who is also the mother of the present Monarch, so no Letters Patent were indeed required. For instance, Queen Mary was The Queen Mother from 1936 to 1952 (during the reigns of Edward VIII and George VI). Usually, the additions "Consort", "Dowager" or "Mother" are not used and all four types of Queens (Queen Regnant, Queen Consort, Queen Mother and Queen Dowager) are simply known as Her Majesty Queen Name.

The only reason Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother actually used the addition was to avoid any confusion with her daughter, also Queen Elizabeth.

Princess Marina's title of Princess of Greece and Denmark had no status in the UK so her styling as Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent was exactly the same as Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester. It was merely a courtesy granted by the Queen to her aunts. You will note that with her husband she took the time to actually create him a Prince of the United Kingdom since her father had merely granted him the style of HRH with the title of Duke of Edinburgh.
 
So you appear to be saying that LPs are not needed to create the style and titles of (Prince/ss) other than peerages or maybe I'm missing something.
What I'm saying is that the titles of Princes and Princesses don't need to be created at all: they are automatic.
However, whenever they do need to be created (for those who are not otherwise entitled to it), then Letters Patent would be needed.
 
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Princess Marina's title of Princess of Greece and Denmark had no status in the UK so her styling as Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent was exactly the same as Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester. It was merely a courtesy granted by the Queen to her aunts. You will note that with her husband she took the time to actually create him a Prince of the United Kingdom since her father had merely granted him the style of HRH with the title of Duke of Edinburgh.
I have to disagree with you, NGalitzine.
Princess Marina did become Her Royal Highness The Duchess of Kent upon her marriage. However, she also remained a Princess of Greece and Denmark as she was born one. Thus, upon her elder son's wedding she simply reverted to her titles by birth.

Of course, her decision to be known as Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent instead of the traditional The Dowager Duchess of Kent still needed approval from the Queen, which was dully granted in 1961, just before the current Duke and Duchess of Kent's marriage.

Prince Philip is a different case: he relinquished all his foreign titles and styles (unlike Marina, who never did that), so had to be created a Prince anew.
 
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Investitures for Prince Harry is coming no doubt about it.
 
Investitures for Prince Harry is coming no doubt about it.
During the reign of King Charles - undoubtedly so.
During the reign of Queen Elizabeth? Unlikely.

He'll almost certainly not be invested as Knight of the Order of Thistle; although William and Charles are members of the Order, neither Prince Andrew, nor Prince Edward are, so it's unlikely the Queen will invest her younger grandson ahead of her own sons.

Order of the Garter is technically possible but not probable. William was invested to signify his role as Heir to the Throne, so there is no reason for Harry to be created a Royal Knight. Besides, I'm sure Prince Charles would like to invest at least one of his sons during his own reign.

Order of Bath, Order of Merit, Royal Victorian Order and others are somewhat unlikely too. If I'm not mistaken, Harry already has the Queen's Family Order * - which is pretty much all he can expect until his father is King.


* My mistake, Prince Harry of course doesn't have the Family Order, which is for women-only. He has Jubilee medals. Thanks to NGalitzine for the correction.
 
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Investitures for Prince Harry is coming no doubt about it.

Anne , Andrew and Edward were all in their 40s before the were created Knights of Garter. Charles as Prince of Wales was created in 1958 (age 10)
I don't think Henry will be invested until Charles is KIng, IMO.
 
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Foreign titles have no status in the UK and any use of them in the UK required a royal warrant. Marina may never have given up her maiden titles but they had no status in the UK. If Marina had simply reverted to her maiden titles she would have been HRH Princess Marina of Greece and Denmark, Duchess of Kent. While I am sure HM took into consideration Marinas former status, I maintain that in the UK her usage of "Princess" was the same as for Alice, merely a social courtesy because no woman wants to be known as a Dowager, not a recognotion of her Greek titles.
 
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Well, at the moment Prince Henry have The Queen's Golden Jubilee Medal and Diamond Jubilee Medal. Those medals are just to mark the years of The Queen's reign.

I think with Harry with the years of Harry's service to Her Majesty on representing her and serving in Afghanistan, an honour from The Queen is coming his way. I really have no doubt about that. There will be honours for Charles to give his sons when he come to the throne. The biggest one under Charles's reign will be investing his heir, The Duke of Cambridge, as The Prince of Wales.

The Royal Family Order of Queen Elizabeth II is only for female members of the royal family. I think that's one of the first that's going to awarded to HRH The Duchess of Cambridge at some point.
 
If I'm not mistaken, Harry already has the Queen's Family Order
What order would that be? As far as i know the Royal Family order is restricted to women. Right now Harry I think only has the Golden and Diamond Jubilee Medals and the Afghanistan service medal.

HM started her younger sons off as CVO and then a number of years later promoted them to KCVO and then GCVO.

I can see her giving Harry the CVO but higher orders waiting until his fathers accession.
 
What order would that be? As far as i know the Royal Family order is restricted to women. Right now Harry I think only has the Golden and Diamond Jubilee Medals and the Afghanistan service medal.
My mistake, thanks for corrected. :flowers:
I meant the Jubilee Medal, not Family Order (which is indeed for woman only).
 
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What order would that be? As far as i know the Royal Family order is restricted to women. Right now Harry I think only has the Golden and Diamond Jubilee Medals and the Afghanistan service medal.

HM started her younger sons off as CVO and then a number of years later promoted them to KCVO and then GCVO.

I can see her giving Harry the CVO but higher orders waiting until his fathers accession.

You're correct. Royal Family Orders are for titled women or other women in extraordinary circumstances.
 
Foreign titles have no status in the UK and any use of them in the UK required a royal warrant. Marina may never have given up her maiden titles but they had no status in the UK. If Marina had simply reverted to her maiden titles she would have been HRH Princess Marina of Greece and Denmark, Duchess of Kent. While I am sure HM took into consideration Marinas former status, I maintain that in the UK her usage of "Princess" was the same as for Alice, merely a social courtesy because no woman wants to be known as a Dowager, not a recognotion of her Greek titles.
Marina didn't use the title Princess Marina of the United Kingdom (to which she was not entitled), just Her Royal Highness Princess Marina - title and style she was entitled to from birth. At least, that's my opinion on this matter, although I certainly respect your viewpoint as well.
 
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The only honour I can see Henry receiving during HM reign and provided he marries is a peerage, IMO
 
I have to disagree with you, NGalitzine.
Princess Marina did become Her Royal Highness The Duchess of Kent upon her marriage. However, she also remained a Princess of Greece and Denmark as she was born one. Thus, upon her elder son's wedding she simply reverted to her titles by birth.

Of course, her decision to be known as Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent instead of the tradition The Dowager Duchess of Kent still needed approval from the Queen, which was dully granted in 1961, just before the current Duke and Duchess of Kent's marriage.

Prince Philip is a different case: he relinquished all his foreign titles and styles (unlike Marina, who never did that), so had to be created a Prince anew.

At the time of her death, Princess Marina's full style was: Her Royal Highness Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent, Countess of St. Andrews and Baroness Downpatrick
 
I still think The Queen will give Prince Harry an honour for his service to her and his service in Afghanistan.
 
Is part of the issue with granting anyone with the Order of the Thistle that the Referendum on Independence is due to happen in 2014? Granted the polls remain in favor of union, but should the worst happen it puts granting the Order in a new light.

I always assumed that the Queen (since 1999) was conferring the Order on the parts of the family with a true love of Scotland, and to the heir apparent. When I look at the current knights/ladies membership - the group is overwhelmingly Scottish (educated, resident, working). The Order is not given lightly if you look at the timing of investiture of the current special knights and lady:

  1. The Duke of Edinburgh KG KT OM GBE AC GCL QSO CD PC PC AdC(P) (1952)
  2. The Duke of Rothesay KG KT GCB OM AK QSO CD SOM GCL PC AdC(P) (1977)
  3. The Princess Royal KG KT GCVO QSO GCL CD TC (2000)
  4. The Earl of Strathearn KG KT (2012) (thanks to Wikipedia for this)
Each investiture can be linked to a significant time in their careers. I also think these are the four royals who seem to enjoy Scotland the most.
 
At the time of her death, Princess Marina's full style was: Her Royal Highness Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent, Countess of St. Andrews and Baroness Downpatrick
Yes, I am aware of that. However, as with most people only the highest title (Duchess of Kent) was used.
 
I still think The Queen will give Prince Harry an honour for his service to her and his service in Afghanistan.

I got curious about this. Maybe not if you look at the history of the current "spare." Prince Andrew, Duke of York was not granted an order after he returned from the Falkland War (1982). Here are his Honours and the years granted:

1979 - CVO
2003 - KCVO
2006 - KG
2011 - GCVO

He, as others serving, was decorated for service in the Falklands War (but that's not a Royal Order).

This chat about Orders might belong in another Forum and if so, I apologize in advance.
 
Foreign titles have no status in the UK and any use of them in the UK required a royal warrant. Marina may never have given up her maiden titles but they had no status in the UK. If Marina had simply reverted to her maiden titles she would have been HRH Princess Marina of Greece and Denmark, Duchess of Kent. While I am sure HM took into consideration Marinas former status, I maintain that in the UK her usage of "Princess" was the same as for Alice, merely a social courtesy because no woman wants to be known as a Dowager, not a recognotion of her Greek titles.

Your knowledge is much appreciated.
 
I still think The Queen will give Prince Harry an honour for his service to her and his service in Afghanistan.

Giving Harry an honour for service to the Queen is one thing but service in Afghanistan entitles Harry to nothing more than any other serviceman or woman.

It's unlikely everyone who served in Afghanistan would be given an honour other than a campaign medal. Any additional honour will (and should only) be awarded for a particularly meritorious act.
 
Princess Marina's title of Princess of Greece and Denmark had no status in the UK so her styling as Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent was exactly the same as Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester. It was merely a courtesy granted by the Queen to her aunts. You will note that with her husband she took the time to actually create him a Prince of the United Kingdom since her father had merely granted him the style of HRH with the title of Duke of Edinburgh.

IMHO you are mistaken in that matter.

Prince Phillip had to be created Prince of the United Kingdom because he renounced his old Titel, so he could be made an english subject and took the name 'Mountbatten' from his Uncle.

No such thing was neccesary for Princesse Marina, as she did NOT renounce her Titel and Name
 
^^^^
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

Foreign titles held by British subjects have no status in the UK and would require a royal licence to be officially recognized in the UK. No royal licence has been granted to a British subject to allow the use of a foreign title since 1932. Marina was a British subject.
When Princess Katherine of Greece & Denmark married a British subject and came to live in the UK the King granted her the style of Lady Katherine with the rank of a dukes daughter for use in the UK. She remained a princess in her home country but in the UK she was only Lady Katherine.
 
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