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  #941  
Old 06-22-2011, 12:54 AM
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I was also under the assumption that HRH Prince Charles was not the 'Prince of Wales' until QEII bestowed this honorary royal title, only given to the oldest son of a current UK monarch, in 1969 - the same year the prince turned 21 years old. I did not realize the prince of Wales title was hereditary.
Also, upon the divorce of the current PoW from his first wife, Diana became =>
(not HRH) Diana, Princess of Wales, only because she was the mother of a future king of the UK. She was not styled simply as a 'Princess.'
Any one know info contrary to my presented info?
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  #942  
Old 06-22-2011, 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted by NotHRH View Post
I thought the 'HRH, the Duke of Edinburgh' title would be inherited by HRH the Earl of Wessex upon the death the passing of his father who is now 'HRH Duke of Edinburgh.' I have do not recall reading the Earl will only receive his father's current title only if Charles, William, Harry, and Andrew predecease HRH Prince Philip/Duke of Edinburgh/Prince-consort of HM QEII. Or did I misunderstand the process for HRH the Earl of Wessex/HRH the Prince Edward to become HRH the Duke of Edinburgh? Why would QEII 'give' the EoW a royal title that is impossible for him to attain? I am confused!

It was announced in 1999 that the intention was that Edward would eventually be created Duke of Edinburgh when both the Queen and Philip were dead and Charles was King. This was because then the title would merge with the Crown as the holder of the Duke of Edinburgh title would also be the King. The Edinburgh title, is like most titles, with the remainder of 'heirs male of the body' so the line of succession the Edinburgh is Charles, William, Harry, Andrew, Edward, James.

However, in the scenario I mentioned above, Charles, William, Harry and Andrew all predeceasing Philip then Beatrice would be Queen and Edward would inherit the Edinburgh title directly as the only surviving son of Philip.

But there are also scenarios whereby the Edinburgh title could go somewhere else and not be available for Edward at all e.g. William has a daughter, then Charles and William die leaving Harry as Philip's heir to the dukedom and William's daughter as heir to the throne.

I have outlined some of the possible scenarios that see the title either not reach Edward or reach him directly rather than simply need to be recreated for him here: The future of the Duke of Edinburgh title

The most likely scenario is the one whereby Charles re-creates the title for his younger brother but it isn't automatic that Edward will ever get the Edinburgh title.

I would hope that if one of the scenarios arose whereby Edward wasn't able to inherit the Edinburgh dukedom or where it couldn't be recreated for him that Charles/William would give him another Dukedom, as befits the son of a monarch.
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  #943  
Old 06-22-2011, 03:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie

It was announced in 1999 that the intention was that Edward would eventually be created Duke of Edinburgh when both the Queen and Philip were dead and Charles was King. This was because then the title would merge with the Crown as the holder of the Duke of Edinburgh title would also be the King. The Edinburgh title, is like most titles, with the remainder of 'heirs male of the body' so the line of succession the Edinburgh is Charles, William, Harry, Andrew, Edward, James.

However, in the scenario I mentioned above, Charles, William, Harry and Andrew all predeceasing Philip then Beatrice would be Queen and Edward would inherit the Edinburgh title directly as the only surviving son of Philip.

But there are also scenarios whereby the Edinburgh title could go somewhere else and not be available for Edward at all e.g. William has a daughter, then Charles and William die leaving Harry as Philip's heir to the dukedom and William's daughter as heir to the throne.

I have outlined some of the possible scenarios that see the title either not reach Edward or reach him directly rather than simply need to be recreated for him here: The future of the Duke of Edinburgh title

The most likely scenario is the one whereby Charles re-creates the title for his younger brother but it isn't automatic that Edward will ever get the Edinburgh title.

I would hope that if one of the scenarios arose whereby Edward wasn't able to inherit the Edinburgh dukedom or where it couldn't be recreated for him that Charles/William would give him another Dukedom, as befits the son of a monarch.

I read the through the website you posted above. If you would read through all, it will statec the reason the HRH the Earl of Wessex will become the DoE after his mother and father have passed on. It was agreed by the current monarch and the PoW to honor Prince Edward with his father's royal title after both of his parents have passed away.
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  #944  
Old 06-22-2011, 04:12 AM
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Originally Posted by NotHRH View Post
I read the through the website you posted above. If you would read through all, it will statec the reason the HRH the Earl of Wessex will become the DoE after his mother and father have passed on. It was agreed by the current monarch and the PoW to honor Prince Edward with his father's royal title after both of his parents have passed away.
The then king Charles can always change his mind and reserve that title for eg. Harry if he has none til his grandfather and grandmother die.

Point is that it was clear from the beginning that the firstborn son of The Duke of of Edinburgh would be his heir and that in the very probable case that said firstborn son was also the son of Princess Elisabeth he would be her heir as well. Thus it was a known fact that in all probability the title would one day merge with the Crown. The intention to grant the title of a Duke of Edinburgh of a new creation to Prince Edward was made public in the knowledge that it will be up to Charles one day to change that intention into reality. But there is no way the current queen can make a decision about that during her lifetime. And if Charles decides that he prefers that the title "duke of Edinburgh" is going to be the title for his heirs (in addition to Cornwall and Rothesay) in commemoration of his father and that Edward should be created "The Duke of Wessex" instead, than there is nothing the queen can do because she won't live to see that day.
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  #945  
Old 06-22-2011, 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted by NotHRH View Post
I read the through the website you posted above. If you would read through all, it will statec the reason the HRH the Earl of Wessex will become the DoE after his mother and father have passed on. It was agreed by the current monarch and the PoW to honor Prince Edward with his father's royal title after both of his parents have passed away.

You do realise that I wrote what is in that link?

What that link does is suggest a range of scenarios which could see Edward not get the title or that it could go to him directly from his father?

Follow this scenario:

Next year Kate has a daughter. Two weeks later William dies in a car crash. Charles, devasted at the death of his son commits suicide. The child is now the Queen's heir apparent but...Harry is now the heir apparent to Philip. So when the Queen dies the daughter becomes Queen but when Philip dies Harry becomes Duke of Edinburgh and thus it doesn't reach Edward.

This is a very improbable scenario but it is there simply to show you that there is no guarantee that Edward will get Edinburgh. If the deaths follow the expected pattern - Philip first making Charles Duke of Edinburgh in addition to his other titles, and then The Queen then the title Duke of Edinburgh merges with the Crown and can be regranted to Edward but if Charles and William die before the Queen with William having a daughter then Harry gets Edinburgh but the daughter gets the Crown - thus no merging and no Edinburgh for Edward.
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  #946  
Old 06-22-2011, 04:32 AM
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Originally Posted by NotHRH View Post
I was also under the assumption that HRH Prince Charles was not the 'Prince of Wales' until QEII bestowed this honorary royal title, only given to the oldest son of a current UK monarch, in 1969 - the same year the prince turned 21 years old. I did not realize the prince of Wales title was hereditary.
Also, upon the divorce of the current PoW from his first wife, Diana became =>
(not HRH) Diana, Princess of Wales, only because she was the mother of a future king of the UK. She was not styled simply as a 'Princess.'
Any one know info contrary to my presented info?
Prince of Wales is not heriditary it has to be created. But Charles was created Prince of Wales on 36.07.1958 he was only ivested in 1969 because in 1958 he was only 10 years old.
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  #947  
Old 06-22-2011, 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by NotHRH View Post
I was also under the assumption that HRH Prince Charles was not the 'Prince of Wales' until QEII bestowed this honorary royal title, only given to the oldest son of a current UK monarch, in 1969 - the same year the prince turned 21 years old. I did not realize the prince of Wales title was hereditary.
Also, upon the divorce of the current PoW from his first wife, Diana became =>
(not HRH) Diana, Princess of Wales, only because she was the mother of a future king of the UK. She was not styled simply as a 'Princess.'
Any one know info contrary to my presented info?

There are a number of titles for the heir to the throne.

If the heir is male and the eldest living son of the monarch then they are automatically Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay etc. These titles aren't created but occur automatically when the person meets both the qualifications - eldest living son of the monarch and heir apparent. If Charles dies before him mother William won't qualify for either of these titles as he wouldn't be the eldest son of the monarch. The Queen couldn't give them to him as the LPs that created the titles would need to be changed by legislation not by the Queen's own will.

The title PoW is created for the heir to the throne at the will on the monarch. The present Queen waited over 6 years before created Charles Prince of Wales, Earl of Chester in 1958. George V waited about a 1 in 1910 before creating the future Edward VIII Prince of Wales but Edward VII waited nealy 10 months in 1901. Edward VII was created PoW aged about 1 month.

George III was never Duke of Cornwall as he was never the eldest living son of the monarch and the heir apparent. He was created Prince of Wales however by his grandfather.

Charles can create William Prince of Wales at any time he desires - immediately after he hears that he has become King or any time after that.
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  #948  
Old 06-22-2011, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie


Follow this scenario:

Next year Kate has a daughter. Two weeks later William dies in a car crash. Charles, devasted at the death of his son commits suicide. The child is now the Queen's heir apparent but...Harry is now the heir apparent to Philip. So when the Queen dies the daughter becomes Queen but when Philip dies Harry becomes Duke of Edinburgh and thus it doesn't reach Edward.
Assuming this unlikely scenario happened would Andrew be more of an heir to Phillip as oldest living son vs Harry as oldest living grandson? In a non-royal family the oldest son would become the ''heir'' over the oldest grandson as least for the DofE title but I am curious why not so for Royal Family? Is it because of line of succession? Does it matter that Charles wasn't King before his 'suicide'?....,,thus making Andrew son of a monoarch but not Harry one? I know it's hypothetical, I'm just curious :)
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  #949  
Old 06-22-2011, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by MRSJ View Post
Assuming this unlikely scenario happened would Andrew be more of an heir to Phillip as oldest living son vs Harry as oldest living grandson? In a non-royal family the oldest son would become the ''heir'' over the oldest grandson as least for the DofE title but I am curious why not so for Royal Family? Is it because of line of succession? Does it matter that Charles wasn't King before his 'suicide'?....,,thus making Andrew son of a monoarch but not Harry one? I know it's hypothetical, I'm just curious :)

Even in a normal family Harry as the second son of the eldest son would come before the second son of the title holder.

The line of succession to Edinburgh is:

Charles,
William
Harry
Andrew
Edward
James

Even with a non-royal title the lines are the same as for the monarch - unless there are specific LPs that state differently.

'Heirs male of the body' still means the eldest son and his male line descendents before the second son and his male line descendents and then the third son etc.

Harry wouldn't just be the eldest grandson though in my scenario - he would be the eldest surviving son of the eldest son and thus the heir to the eldest son and thus the heir to the original title holder. Just as Harry is third in line to the Queen he is also third in line to Philip's title. And of course Harry wouldn't be the eldest grandson anyway - that would be Peter but he is ineligible as he descends from a woman.

Non-titles families may choose how to leave their money etc but titles are different as they are covered by the LPs that created them and in the case of Philip's, Andrew's and Edward's they all state 'heir male of the body' as do the Gloucester and Kent titles so they pass down each male line to the very end before passing to the next son.

Say Edinburgh does end up with Harry as in my scenario above but in five generations Harry has no more male line descendents then the title would pass to Edward's male line descendents - assuming Andrew doesn't remarry and have a son. Philip's title can't pass through a female line so it can't go down from Andrew at the moment or from Anne. What about William's 'daughter' and her line well she and her descendents are out as she would be female and thus couldn't inherit the title under the present LPs.
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  #950  
Old 06-22-2011, 09:45 AM
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"A further declaration was issued by the Queen regarding the family surname in 1960 stating that while she and her heirs would continue to be known as the House of Windsor, her descendants not inheriting the throne would take the surname Mountbatten-Windsor. It has been made known that on the death of the Queen and her husband, Prince Edward will succeed to his father's title of Duke of Edinburgh." English Monarchs - Kings and Queens of England - Elizabeth II.

I don't know about the accuracy of the website, but I do know that I've heard many times that this is HM's wish.
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  #951  
Old 06-22-2011, 01:08 PM
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Could I please provide a little background information on this?

On the Duke of Edinburgh's passing, the title will revert to the Crown. In 1999, when the Queen created Prince Edward The Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn on his marriage, it was also announced that after the title has reverted back to the Crown, Edward will be given the title Duke of Edinburgh. [I know this because I saw the Press Release issued by BP]


Hope this helps,

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  #952  
Old 06-22-2011, 01:59 PM
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I believe Edward will receive the title upon his parent's deaths; I can't imagine Charles would deny him this as it was his own mother who made the decision. Well at least I hope he wouldn't.
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  #953  
Old 06-22-2011, 02:04 PM
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I think everyone has the gist of it but are getting caught up with the particulars.

The Edinburgh title does revert back to the Crown but as previously pointed out the Queen has suggested that the title will pass to Edward upon the death of the Duke and/or the Queen. It is assumed that in doing so, since it will have to bypass Charles, Andrew, William and Harry. I am sure Charles (in order to grant his mother's wish) will just issue LP's to that affect. I would assume that the Queen discussed this with everyone involved (Charles, Andrew, Harry and William).

Its that it in a nutshell?
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  #954  
Old 06-22-2011, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by KittyAtlanta View Post
"A further declaration was issued by the Queen regarding the family surname in 1960 stating that while she and her heirs would continue to be known as the House of Windsor, her descendants not inheriting the throne would take the surname Mountbatten-Windsor. It has been made known that on the death of the Queen and her husband, Prince Edward will succeed to his father's title of Duke of Edinburgh." English Monarchs - Kings and Queens of England - Elizabeth II.

I don't know about the accuracy of the website, but I do know that I've heard many times that this is HM's wish.

It is the stated wish but there are scenarios by which it won't be possible.
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  #955  
Old 06-22-2011, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Diarist View Post
Could I please provide a little background information on this?

On the Duke of Edinburgh's passing, the title will revert to the Crown. In 1999, when the Queen created Prince Edward The Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn on his marriage, it was also announced that after the title has reverted back to the Crown, Edward will be given the title Duke of Edinburgh. [I know this because I saw the Press Release issued by BP]


Hope this helps,

Alex

This is exactly what has been said here many times of course.

The statement, without spelling it out, also implies that they are aware that there are scenarios by which the title won't revert and thus won't be available for Edward.
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  #956  
Old 06-22-2011, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
I think everyone has the gist of it but are getting caught up with the particulars.

The Edinburgh title does revert back to the Crown but as previously pointed out the Queen has suggested that the title will pass to Edward upon the death of the Duke and/or the Queen. It is assumed that in doing so, since it will have to bypass Charles, Andrew, William and Harry. I am sure Charles (in order to grant his mother's wish) will just issue LP's to that affect. I would assume that the Queen discussed this with everyone involved (Charles, Andrew, Harry and William).

Its that it in a nutshell?

Not quite - it won't 'bypass' anyone.

When Philip dies Charles will inherit the title. If he is still the heir to the throne he will add it to his titles. If he is King it will merge with the Crown and be available for regrant and the agreement, already announced is that it will be regranted to Edward.

All I have added to this is that there are scenarios whereby it ends up with Harry or someone else and is thus not available for regrant at all but will be passing to others of Philip's male line descendents - and those permutations could even change again if William has a daughter and then a son and they change to gender blind succession for the monarch but not other titles.

The most likely scenario is that on Philip's death the title will pass to Charles. Next the Queen should die and Charles become King with the title then merging with the Crown and thus Charles is expected to issue new LPs, honouring his parents' stated wish, to create his younger brother Duke of Edinburgh but Charles is under no obligation to do so. He might prefer to create Harry DoE instead of Edward or ....
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  #957  
Old 06-22-2011, 05:35 PM
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But surely they can do what happened with the Duke of Saxe- Coburg Gotha title. When the old Duke died, a number of potential title holders (Prince of Wales, Duke of Edinburgh, Duke of Connaught and Prince Arthur of Connaught) renounced their rights to the title. Surely the same can be done by Charles, Andrew, William and Harry? And that would settle the whole thing wouldn't it?
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  #958  
Old 06-22-2011, 05:36 PM
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Not quite - it won't 'bypass' anyone.

When Philip dies Charles will inherit the title. If he is still the heir to the throne he will add it to his titles. If he is King it will merge with the Crown and be available for regrant and the agreement, already announced is that it will be regranted to Edward.

All I have added to this is that there are scenarios whereby it ends up with Harry or someone else and is thus not available for regrant at all but will be passing to others of Philip's male line descendents - and those permutations could even change again if William has a daughter and then a son and they change to gender blind succession for the monarch but not other titles.

The most likely scenario is that on Philip's death the title will pass to Charles. Next the Queen should die and Charles become King with the title then merging with the Crown and thus Charles is expected to issue new LPs, honouring his parents' stated wish, to create his younger brother Duke of Edinburgh but Charles is under no obligation to do so. He might prefer to create Harry DoE instead of Edward or ....
Thanks, Bertie, for the clarification. I had never strung the possibilities out to conclude what you just said. Since both HM and DoE will have died, Charles will be the one to make the decision about who gets the title, even though HM had expressed her wishes. Sometimes I don't think logically for long enough.
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  #959  
Old 06-22-2011, 05:46 PM
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NOTHRH , I seem to remember hearing this too. I think it was at the time of his marriage , there was an announcement made that Prince Edward would become the Earl of Wessex, then , upon his father's death, the Duke of Edinburgh. As far as I am aware , this was the decision of HM the Queen.
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Old 06-22-2011, 05:52 PM
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But surely they can do what happened with the Duke of Saxe- Coburg Gotha title. When the old Duke died, a number of potential title holders (Prince of Wales, Duke of Edinburgh, Duke of Connaught and Prince Arthur of Connaught) renounced their rights to the title. Surely the same can be done by Charles, Andrew, William and Harry? And that would settle the whole thing wouldn't it?

Saxe-Coburg's laws were different to those of Britain and so that situation was also different. The Duke of Edinburgh actually didn't renounce his rights - he actually took the title from the death of his own uncle. It was, first the Prince of Wales - and as at that time Saxe-Coburg was an independent state he couldn't be the rule of two nations - despite the example of Hannover and Britain that idea had been changed with growing German nationalism. After the Duke of Edinburgh died the Duke of Connaught also renounced his claims as he was an elderly man who didn't want to uproot his life and career at that state and so it passed to the young Duke of Albany.

Under the 1963 Peerage Act a person can disclaim a peerage but the heir doesn't get it until the holder dies e.g. Charles, William, Harry and Andrew could all disclaim the Edinburgh title but that doesn't mean that Edward would get it - it would simply stop being used until all of the above died or it merged with the Crown. Prior to the 1963 Act even doing that wasn't possible.

Peerage Act 1963 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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