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  #941  
Old 06-21-2011, 05:35 PM
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Sarah is no longer a Duchess. With divorce, she retained her former title as a style, similar to a surname, as the former wife of a Peer and Royal Prince. She lost her royal rank, style and title as HRH The Duchess of York because she enjoyed these attributes as the wife of the title holder, not in her own right.

Diana was also officially no longer a Princess with divorce. However, because she was the mother of a future King, The Queen agreed Diana would remain a member of the royal family (informally at best) and it was announced she would be granted her former precedence on all state and national occasions. She was also permitted to retain the style of a Princess as a courtesy.
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  #942  
Old 06-21-2011, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Molly2101 View Post
... If and when Prince Edward does inherit the Duke of Edinburgh title after the death of his parents, and Prince Charles allows him to have the title, I take it Sophie becomes Duchess of Edinburgh?
She will keep the Countess of Wessex title , but when Prince Edward inherit the Duke of Edinburgh title , Sophie short form probably gonna be Duchess of Edinburgh

But full title is gonna be: Her Royal Highness The Princess Edward Antony Richard Louis, Duchess of Edinburgh,Countess of Wessex, Viscountess Severn, Dame Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order, Dame of Justice of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St John of Jerusalem
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  #943  
Old 06-21-2011, 10:03 PM
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Of course Edward may not ever become Duke of Edinburgh but his chances of actually inheriting that title are very very slim - for him to inherit it, Charles, William, Harry and Andrew would all have to predecease Philip.

If by some chance Edward does inherit the title then her titles would actually be Her Royal Highness The Princess Edward Antony Richard Louis, Duchess of Edinburgh, Countess of Merioneth, Countess of Wessex, Viscountess Severn, Baroness Greenwich, Dame Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order, Dame of Justice of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St John of Jerusalem

The two I have added are because they are the rest of Philip's titles and if Edinburgh is inherited then they would also be inherited by Edward but if the Edinburgh merges with the Crown then so will Merioneth and Greenwich and they would also be available for regrant but not necessarily to Edward.
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  #944  
Old 06-21-2011, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagMil View Post
Diana's full title, while married, was Her Royal Highness The Princess Charles Philip Arthur George, Princess of Wales & Countess of Chester, Duchess of Cornwall, Duchess of Rothesay, Countess of Carrick, Baroness of Renfrew, Lady of the Isles, Princess of Scotland

Sophie's style and title in full:Her Royal Highness The Princess Edward Antony Richard Louis, Countess of Wessex, Viscountess Severn, Dame Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order, Dame of Justice of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St John of Jerusalem

Sarah Ferguson's full title during her marriage was Her Royal Highness The Princess Andrew Albert Christian Edward, Duchess of York, Countess of Inverness, Baroness Killyleagh.

You are wrong on all three counts. Diana's title was HRH The Princess of Wales plus all of Charles' other titles. She was never The Princess Charles because Charles was never The Prince Charles. He was born HRH Prince Charles of Edinburgh and when his mother became Queen, he automatically became HRH The Duke of Cornwall and then HRH The Prince of Wales. He has never been HRH The Prince Charles Philip Arthur George. He is a Prince of the United Kingdom and his name is Charles Philip Arthur George but that has never been his title.

Andrew, on the other hand, was once The Prince Andrew. However, he received the title of Duke of York on his wedding day which means he was no longer The Prince Andrew. Thus his wife became HRH The Duchess of York (plus all his other titles) but did not become The Princess Andrew because Andrew himself no longer had that title.

Same thing with Edward and Sophie. She is HRH The Countess of Wessex because her husband is HRH The Earl of Wessex. She is not The Princess Edward because he no longer has that title.
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  #945  
Old 06-21-2011, 11:26 PM
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You have been told again and again that you are wrong.

Of course Charles was The Prince Charles as the child of the monarch that is the first title he has - he doesn't use it because he has other titles but he still is, and has been since 1952 The Prince Charles.

The same with his brothers - they have been since birth The Prince Andrew and The Prince Edward. They didn't lose those titles when they became The Duke of York and The Earl of Wessex.

The same with William today - he is still Prince William - he didn't lose that title when he became The Duke of Cambridge.
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  #946  
Old 06-21-2011, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmkrcwi View Post
...Charles was never The Prince Charles.
If you want to see The Prince Charles used in official capacity, the Court Circular (I read it on the British Monarchy's Facebook page) lists "The Prince Charles, Duke of Rothesay" when referring to The Prince of Wales in Scotland.
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  #947  
Old 06-22-2011, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Super Baroness View Post
If you want to see The Prince Charles used in official capacity, the Court Circular (I read it on the British Monarchy's Facebook page) lists "The Prince Charles, Duke of Rothesay" when referring to The Prince of Wales in Scotland.

Thank you - I had forgetten that he was referred to that way in Scotland.
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  #948  
Old 06-22-2011, 12:31 AM
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I thought the 'HRH, the Duke of Edinburgh' title would be inherited by HRH the Earl of Wessex upon the death the passing of his father who is now 'HRH Duke of Edinburgh.' I have do not recall reading the Earl will only receive his father's current title only if Charles, William, Harry, and Andrew predecease HRH Prince Philip/Duke of Edinburgh/Prince-consort of HM QEII. Or did I misunderstand the process for HRH the Earl of Wessex/HRH the Prince Edward to become HRH the Duke of Edinburgh? Why would QEII 'give' the EoW a royal title that is impossible for him to attain? I am confused!
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  #949  
Old 06-22-2011, 12:54 AM
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I was also under the assumption that HRH Prince Charles was not the 'Prince of Wales' until QEII bestowed this honorary royal title, only given to the oldest son of a current UK monarch, in 1969 - the same year the prince turned 21 years old. I did not realize the prince of Wales title was hereditary.
Also, upon the divorce of the current PoW from his first wife, Diana became =>
(not HRH) Diana, Princess of Wales, only because she was the mother of a future king of the UK. She was not styled simply as a 'Princess.'
Any one know info contrary to my presented info?
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  #950  
Old 06-22-2011, 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted by NotHRH View Post
I thought the 'HRH, the Duke of Edinburgh' title would be inherited by HRH the Earl of Wessex upon the death the passing of his father who is now 'HRH Duke of Edinburgh.' I have do not recall reading the Earl will only receive his father's current title only if Charles, William, Harry, and Andrew predecease HRH Prince Philip/Duke of Edinburgh/Prince-consort of HM QEII. Or did I misunderstand the process for HRH the Earl of Wessex/HRH the Prince Edward to become HRH the Duke of Edinburgh? Why would QEII 'give' the EoW a royal title that is impossible for him to attain? I am confused!

It was announced in 1999 that the intention was that Edward would eventually be created Duke of Edinburgh when both the Queen and Philip were dead and Charles was King. This was because then the title would merge with the Crown as the holder of the Duke of Edinburgh title would also be the King. The Edinburgh title, is like most titles, with the remainder of 'heirs male of the body' so the line of succession the Edinburgh is Charles, William, Harry, Andrew, Edward, James.

However, in the scenario I mentioned above, Charles, William, Harry and Andrew all predeceasing Philip then Beatrice would be Queen and Edward would inherit the Edinburgh title directly as the only surviving son of Philip.

But there are also scenarios whereby the Edinburgh title could go somewhere else and not be available for Edward at all e.g. William has a daughter, then Charles and William die leaving Harry as Philip's heir to the dukedom and William's daughter as heir to the throne.

I have outlined some of the possible scenarios that see the title either not reach Edward or reach him directly rather than simply need to be recreated for him here: The future of the Duke of Edinburgh title

The most likely scenario is the one whereby Charles re-creates the title for his younger brother but it isn't automatic that Edward will ever get the Edinburgh title.

I would hope that if one of the scenarios arose whereby Edward wasn't able to inherit the Edinburgh dukedom or where it couldn't be recreated for him that Charles/William would give him another Dukedom, as befits the son of a monarch.
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  #951  
Old 06-22-2011, 03:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie

It was announced in 1999 that the intention was that Edward would eventually be created Duke of Edinburgh when both the Queen and Philip were dead and Charles was King. This was because then the title would merge with the Crown as the holder of the Duke of Edinburgh title would also be the King. The Edinburgh title, is like most titles, with the remainder of 'heirs male of the body' so the line of succession the Edinburgh is Charles, William, Harry, Andrew, Edward, James.

However, in the scenario I mentioned above, Charles, William, Harry and Andrew all predeceasing Philip then Beatrice would be Queen and Edward would inherit the Edinburgh title directly as the only surviving son of Philip.

But there are also scenarios whereby the Edinburgh title could go somewhere else and not be available for Edward at all e.g. William has a daughter, then Charles and William die leaving Harry as Philip's heir to the dukedom and William's daughter as heir to the throne.

I have outlined some of the possible scenarios that see the title either not reach Edward or reach him directly rather than simply need to be recreated for him here: The future of the Duke of Edinburgh title

The most likely scenario is the one whereby Charles re-creates the title for his younger brother but it isn't automatic that Edward will ever get the Edinburgh title.

I would hope that if one of the scenarios arose whereby Edward wasn't able to inherit the Edinburgh dukedom or where it couldn't be recreated for him that Charles/William would give him another Dukedom, as befits the son of a monarch.

I read the through the website you posted above. If you would read through all, it will statec the reason the HRH the Earl of Wessex will become the DoE after his mother and father have passed on. It was agreed by the current monarch and the PoW to honor Prince Edward with his father's royal title after both of his parents have passed away.
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  #952  
Old 06-22-2011, 04:12 AM
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Originally Posted by NotHRH View Post
I read the through the website you posted above. If you would read through all, it will statec the reason the HRH the Earl of Wessex will become the DoE after his mother and father have passed on. It was agreed by the current monarch and the PoW to honor Prince Edward with his father's royal title after both of his parents have passed away.
The then king Charles can always change his mind and reserve that title for eg. Harry if he has none til his grandfather and grandmother die.

Point is that it was clear from the beginning that the firstborn son of The Duke of of Edinburgh would be his heir and that in the very probable case that said firstborn son was also the son of Princess Elisabeth he would be her heir as well. Thus it was a known fact that in all probability the title would one day merge with the Crown. The intention to grant the title of a Duke of Edinburgh of a new creation to Prince Edward was made public in the knowledge that it will be up to Charles one day to change that intention into reality. But there is no way the current queen can make a decision about that during her lifetime. And if Charles decides that he prefers that the title "duke of Edinburgh" is going to be the title for his heirs (in addition to Cornwall and Rothesay) in commemoration of his father and that Edward should be created "The Duke of Wessex" instead, than there is nothing the queen can do because she won't live to see that day.
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  #953  
Old 06-22-2011, 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted by NotHRH View Post
I read the through the website you posted above. If you would read through all, it will statec the reason the HRH the Earl of Wessex will become the DoE after his mother and father have passed on. It was agreed by the current monarch and the PoW to honor Prince Edward with his father's royal title after both of his parents have passed away.

You do realise that I wrote what is in that link?

What that link does is suggest a range of scenarios which could see Edward not get the title or that it could go to him directly from his father?

Follow this scenario:

Next year Kate has a daughter. Two weeks later William dies in a car crash. Charles, devasted at the death of his son commits suicide. The child is now the Queen's heir apparent but...Harry is now the heir apparent to Philip. So when the Queen dies the daughter becomes Queen but when Philip dies Harry becomes Duke of Edinburgh and thus it doesn't reach Edward.

This is a very improbable scenario but it is there simply to show you that there is no guarantee that Edward will get Edinburgh. If the deaths follow the expected pattern - Philip first making Charles Duke of Edinburgh in addition to his other titles, and then The Queen then the title Duke of Edinburgh merges with the Crown and can be regranted to Edward but if Charles and William die before the Queen with William having a daughter then Harry gets Edinburgh but the daughter gets the Crown - thus no merging and no Edinburgh for Edward.
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  #954  
Old 06-22-2011, 04:32 AM
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Originally Posted by NotHRH View Post
I was also under the assumption that HRH Prince Charles was not the 'Prince of Wales' until QEII bestowed this honorary royal title, only given to the oldest son of a current UK monarch, in 1969 - the same year the prince turned 21 years old. I did not realize the prince of Wales title was hereditary.
Also, upon the divorce of the current PoW from his first wife, Diana became =>
(not HRH) Diana, Princess of Wales, only because she was the mother of a future king of the UK. She was not styled simply as a 'Princess.'
Any one know info contrary to my presented info?
Prince of Wales is not heriditary it has to be created. But Charles was created Prince of Wales on 36.07.1958 he was only ivested in 1969 because in 1958 he was only 10 years old.
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  #955  
Old 06-22-2011, 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by NotHRH View Post
I was also under the assumption that HRH Prince Charles was not the 'Prince of Wales' until QEII bestowed this honorary royal title, only given to the oldest son of a current UK monarch, in 1969 - the same year the prince turned 21 years old. I did not realize the prince of Wales title was hereditary.
Also, upon the divorce of the current PoW from his first wife, Diana became =>
(not HRH) Diana, Princess of Wales, only because she was the mother of a future king of the UK. She was not styled simply as a 'Princess.'
Any one know info contrary to my presented info?

There are a number of titles for the heir to the throne.

If the heir is male and the eldest living son of the monarch then they are automatically Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay etc. These titles aren't created but occur automatically when the person meets both the qualifications - eldest living son of the monarch and heir apparent. If Charles dies before him mother William won't qualify for either of these titles as he wouldn't be the eldest son of the monarch. The Queen couldn't give them to him as the LPs that created the titles would need to be changed by legislation not by the Queen's own will.

The title PoW is created for the heir to the throne at the will on the monarch. The present Queen waited over 6 years before created Charles Prince of Wales, Earl of Chester in 1958. George V waited about a 1 in 1910 before creating the future Edward VIII Prince of Wales but Edward VII waited nealy 10 months in 1901. Edward VII was created PoW aged about 1 month.

George III was never Duke of Cornwall as he was never the eldest living son of the monarch and the heir apparent. He was created Prince of Wales however by his grandfather.

Charles can create William Prince of Wales at any time he desires - immediately after he hears that he has become King or any time after that.
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  #956  
Old 06-22-2011, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie


Follow this scenario:

Next year Kate has a daughter. Two weeks later William dies in a car crash. Charles, devasted at the death of his son commits suicide. The child is now the Queen's heir apparent but...Harry is now the heir apparent to Philip. So when the Queen dies the daughter becomes Queen but when Philip dies Harry becomes Duke of Edinburgh and thus it doesn't reach Edward.
Assuming this unlikely scenario happened would Andrew be more of an heir to Phillip as oldest living son vs Harry as oldest living grandson? In a non-royal family the oldest son would become the ''heir'' over the oldest grandson as least for the DofE title but I am curious why not so for Royal Family? Is it because of line of succession? Does it matter that Charles wasn't King before his 'suicide'?....,,thus making Andrew son of a monoarch but not Harry one? I know it's hypothetical, I'm just curious :)
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  #957  
Old 06-22-2011, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by MRSJ View Post
Assuming this unlikely scenario happened would Andrew be more of an heir to Phillip as oldest living son vs Harry as oldest living grandson? In a non-royal family the oldest son would become the ''heir'' over the oldest grandson as least for the DofE title but I am curious why not so for Royal Family? Is it because of line of succession? Does it matter that Charles wasn't King before his 'suicide'?....,,thus making Andrew son of a monoarch but not Harry one? I know it's hypothetical, I'm just curious :)

Even in a normal family Harry as the second son of the eldest son would come before the second son of the title holder.

The line of succession to Edinburgh is:

Charles,
William
Harry
Andrew
Edward
James

Even with a non-royal title the lines are the same as for the monarch - unless there are specific LPs that state differently.

'Heirs male of the body' still means the eldest son and his male line descendents before the second son and his male line descendents and then the third son etc.

Harry wouldn't just be the eldest grandson though in my scenario - he would be the eldest surviving son of the eldest son and thus the heir to the eldest son and thus the heir to the original title holder. Just as Harry is third in line to the Queen he is also third in line to Philip's title. And of course Harry wouldn't be the eldest grandson anyway - that would be Peter but he is ineligible as he descends from a woman.

Non-titles families may choose how to leave their money etc but titles are different as they are covered by the LPs that created them and in the case of Philip's, Andrew's and Edward's they all state 'heir male of the body' as do the Gloucester and Kent titles so they pass down each male line to the very end before passing to the next son.

Say Edinburgh does end up with Harry as in my scenario above but in five generations Harry has no more male line descendents then the title would pass to Edward's male line descendents - assuming Andrew doesn't remarry and have a son. Philip's title can't pass through a female line so it can't go down from Andrew at the moment or from Anne. What about William's 'daughter' and her line well she and her descendents are out as she would be female and thus couldn't inherit the title under the present LPs.
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  #958  
Old 06-22-2011, 09:45 AM
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"A further declaration was issued by the Queen regarding the family surname in 1960 stating that while she and her heirs would continue to be known as the House of Windsor, her descendants not inheriting the throne would take the surname Mountbatten-Windsor. It has been made known that on the death of the Queen and her husband, Prince Edward will succeed to his father's title of Duke of Edinburgh." English Monarchs - Kings and Queens of England - Elizabeth II.

I don't know about the accuracy of the website, but I do know that I've heard many times that this is HM's wish.
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  #959  
Old 06-22-2011, 01:08 PM
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Could I please provide a little background information on this?

On the Duke of Edinburgh's passing, the title will revert to the Crown. In 1999, when the Queen created Prince Edward The Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn on his marriage, it was also announced that after the title has reverted back to the Crown, Edward will be given the title Duke of Edinburgh. [I know this because I saw the Press Release issued by BP]


Hope this helps,

Alex
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  #960  
Old 06-22-2011, 01:59 PM
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I believe Edward will receive the title upon his parent's deaths; I can't imagine Charles would deny him this as it was his own mother who made the decision. Well at least I hope he wouldn't.
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