Questions about British Styles and Titles 1: Ending 2022

[NGalitzine]

So before the 1917 LP, the Earls of Ulster and St Andrews would have been styled as highness? HH the Earl of Ulster etc?

More likely they would have been styled like HH Prince Alastair of Connaught who after 1917 became known as the Earl of MacDuff before succeeding his grandfather as 2nd Duke of Connaught.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Will the dukedoms of Gloucester and Kent continue to be royal dukedoms when the current holders pass away?
I understand the Earl of Ulster and the Earl of St Andrews are not royal highnesses and was wondering does this impact the dukedoms.

It will have very limited impact on the dukedoms.

All that will happen is that instead of the titleholder being called HRH The Duke of Gloucestor or HRH The Duke of Kent they will be His Grace The Duke of Gloucester or His Grace The Duke of Kent.

The titles will continue to descend in the same was as other titles with the same remainders - i.e. through the male lines only and the descendents will remain in the line of succession, unless barred for other reasons.

In time the same thing will happen with the Edinburgh title, when it reaches James, he will be His Grace The Duke of Edinburgh (and yes I know about his rights under the 1917 LPs but I don't think he will ever take up that option as I expect by the time he is 18 he will probably be lower than 15th in the line of succession - that means that William, Harry, Beatrice and Eugenie each have 1/2 children by then and we are talking 12 years from now).

 

[yvr girl]

Will the dukedoms of Gloucester and Kent continue to be royal dukedoms when the current holders pass away?
I understand the Earl of Ulster and the Earl of St Andrews are not royal highnesses and was wondering does this impact the dukedoms.

They will become regular dukedoms. If all the heirs of either dukedom passed away, the dukedoms could become royal again if they were re-issed to a future prince. A dukedom is royal when it is held by a royal.

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

In Canada the Duke of Cambridge is formally and legally styled, The most High, most Mighty, and Illustrious Prince William HRH the Duke of Cambridge, Earl of Strathearn, Baron Carrickfergus, Royal Knight Companion of the Most Noble Order of the Garter Knight of the Most Ancient and Most Noble Order of the Thisle

This being the case, What would Catherine's female style equivalent be in Canada?

 

[Lumutqueen]

I assume the same as her British title Her Royal Highness Princess William, Duchess of Cambridge, Countess of Strathearn, Baroness Carrickfergus. Possibly with the edition of the High, Mighty and Illustrious.

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

According to the Clerk of the Queen's Privy Council in Canada, all Dukes of the Royal Blood are entitled to the style , 'The Most High, Most Mighty, and Illustrious Prince' in addition to their other styles and titles. At least in Canada

 

[Iluvbertie]

I think that you will find that those terms actually are the full official lists but they are rarely if ever used. The only time I can think of them being used is at a person's funeral e.g. This is the full list for the Queen Mum read at her funeral and again those other terms appear:

"Thus it hath pleased Almighty God to take out of this transitory life unto His Divine Mercy the late Most High, Most Mighty and Most Excellent Princess Elizabeth, Queen Dowager and Queen Mother, Lady of the Most Noble Order of the Garter, Lady of the Most Ancient and Most Noble Order of the Thistle, Lady of the Imperial Order of the Crown of India, Grand Master and Dame Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order upon whom had been conferred the Royal Victorian Chain, Dame Grand Cross of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire, Dame Grand Cross of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St John of Jerusalem, Relict of His Majesty King George the Sixth and Mother of Her Most Excellent Majesty Elizabeth The Second by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, Sovereign of the Most Noble Order of the Garter, whom may God preserve and bless with long life, health and honour and all worldly happiness."[1]

List of titles and honours of Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Even the full name of the orders was read out - mostly we say KG means Knight of the Garter but in full it means Knight of the Most Noble Order of the Garter.

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

Does anyone have an opinion on when the Duke of Cambridge will be invested as a Knight Grand Cross of the Order of the Bath. William is a Royal Duke, A Royal Knight Companion of the most Noble Order of the Garter. A Knight of the Most Ancient and most Noble of the Thistle

Since the Order of the Bath is the third highest order of chivalry, would it make sense for William to be invested over Christmas?

 

[NGalitzine]

There really is no reason for him to get it. Charles has it because he is Grand Master of the Order. No one else in the family currently has the GCB.

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

As usual you make sense. In your opinion, are there any other orders the Duke of Cambridge will receive during HM reign?

 

[NGalitzine]

Well he is already KG and KT the 2 highest orders of knighthood. I really cannot see him receiving anymore unless he were to become Grand Master of one of the other orders at some future date.
Philip is Grand Master of the Order of the British Empire
Charles is Grand Master of the Order of the Bath
Anne is Grand Master of the Royal Victorian Order
The Duke of Kent is Grand Master of the Order of St Michael and St George
The Duke of Gloucester is Grand Prior of the Order of St John of Jerusalem

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

Well he is already KG and KT the 2 highest orders of knighthood. I really cannot see him receiving anymore unless he were to become Grand Master of one of the other orders at some future date.
Philip is Grand Master of the Order of the British Empire
Charles is Grand Master of the Order of the Bath
Anne is Grand Master of the Royal Victorian Order
The Duke of Kent is Grand Master of the Order of St Michael and St George
The Duke of Gloucester is Grand Prior of the Order of St John of Jerusalem

Thanks for the information NGalitzine

 

[Dman]

I'm thinking that William will be intested with the Knight Grand Cross of the Order of the Bath. William is a member of the Order of the Garter, Thistle and the next will most likely be Order of the Bath.

 

[Dman]

Or it could be Order of St Michael and St George, Order of the British Empire, Royal Victorian Order, etc. William will have so many Orders coming his way, especially foreign Royal Orders. Of course Catherine will be given Orders too at some point.

 

[NGalitzine]

Well someday he will become sovereign of all the orders, but his grandmother has already been quite generous to him as it is and usually she has been quite restrained in decorating her relatives (at least until they have demonstrated their service to the crown for a number of years).

 

[PssKatie]

I don't believe William is able to receive the Knight Grand Cross of the Order of the Bath. In order to receive this honour a person must be an Air Vice Marshal in the RAF. William, as a Flight Lieutenant, isn't eligible for any honours within the Bath, as Companions must hold at least the rank of Squadron Leader in the RAF.

 

[HRHThePrince]

I'm surprised William was promoted to a KG & KT so quickly. I mean his uncles had to wait years and years before being conferred into the orders.

 

[PrincePatrick]

I'm surprised William was promoted to a KG & KT so quickly. I mean his uncles had to wait years and years before being conferred into the orders.

He is in direct line of succession to the throne after all. And, the last time we had a long-reigning Queen, and an older Prince of Wales, his son was conferred into the orders at similar ages (George V, of course).

 

[Iluvbertie]

George V was given the Garter aged 21 and his older brother - who was then the 2nd in line to the throne - was given it at 19. The present Queen has been much slower in giving these awards to her sons then was Victoria who had all of her sons invested before they were out of their 20s with Leopold being the oldest at 25 while the older two younger sons were in their teens and of course Edward VII automatically one when he was created Prince of Wales.

 

[HRHThePrince]

So is it fair to say that the Duke of York & the Earl of Wessex will more than likely not be installed as Knights of the Thistle until the reign of their brother Prince Charles? The Queen has reigned for 60 years now, Charles's accession as king I'm sure will be soon. I mean Prince Edward is 48 yrs old, Andrew 52. I may be wrong but I believe these honors are long overdue. Neither the Dukes of Kent & Gloucester have received the order.

 

[Meraude]

As I understand it when the title Princess Royal is given to a oldest daughter the title is hers as long as she lives, while the title prince(ss) of Wales merges with the throne when the person carrying the title becomes monarch. Unless there are changes made regarding the title Princess Royal, a female monarch who has been given that title before becoming monarch will not be able to give a non-firstborn daughter or granddaughter the title Princess Royal.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I don't think that either Andrew or Edward will get the Thistle unless the Queen gives it to them as I don't see Charles giving any honours to any of his siblings. I like Charles but it is clear that he isn't that close to his brothers and really I don't see him wanting to give them any honours at all. I can see him wanting them to be phased out of the public life altogether and only appear at really big family affairs, although he will ensure that they won't be left with no income or anything like that.

I don't even think they will continue going to Sandringham for Christmas once Charles is King.

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

My gut feeling is William will be invested during HM reign, sooner rather than later. as ministerial advice is required, David Cameroon would most certainly approve. I get the feeling the Duke of York and the Earl of Wessex will not be invested a KTs

The Monarchy Today > Queen and public > Honours > Order of the Bath

 

[NGalitzine]

I don't believe William is able to receive the Knight Grand Cross of the Order of the Bath. In order to receive this honour a person must be an Air Vice Marshal in the RAF. William, as a Flight Lieutenant, isn't eligible for any honours within the Bath, as Companions must hold at least the rank of Squadron Leader in the RAF.

The Bath is not only awarded for military service. It is also awarded for civil service. Rules for awarding to the royals don't necessarily follow the rules for mere mortals. When Charles became Grand Master of the order and GCB he was still a young naval Lieutenant while Vice Admiral Sir Tim Laurence is a CB. Robert Fellows is a KCB as a result of his being a former Private Secretary to The Queen.
I just cannot see any necessity to load more honours on William, at least before he becomes the heir, unless he were to succeed one of his relatives as Grand Master of one of the orders of knighthood.

 

[Osipi]

The Bath is not only awarded for military service. It is also awarded for civil service. Rules for awarding to the royals don't necessarily follow the rules for mere mortals. When Charles became Grand Master of the order and GCB he was still a young naval Lieutenant while Vice Admiral Sir Tim Laurence is a CB. Robert Fellows is a KCB as a result of his being a former Private Secretary to The Queen.
I just cannot see any necessity to load more honours on William, at least before he becomes the heir, unless he were to succeed one of his relatives as Grand Master of one of the orders of knighthood.

I agree with you here on this point. I would really doubt that there will be any more honors bestowed on William until at least he is a full time working royal for a few years at least. If not then, perhaps after Charles becomes King.

 

[EIIR]

What about the Order of Merit? When did Charles receive his OM?

 

[HRHThePrince]

I think Prince Charles is only concerned with keeping funds in his pocket... and that is the real reason of why he wants a slimmed down Royal Family. The less duties performed by royals the less he has to repay the Treasury. And I believe in Williams reign Princesses Beatrice & Eugenie will perform royal duties. Just think about it... the Gloucesters & Kents are getting older. William & Harry's children won't even be of age... there gonna need a pair of extra hands. And like Prince Andrew was saying, they're the only Princesses of their generation. I don't see the reason of why Charles wants to exclude them...

 

[vkrish]

I don't think that either Andrew or Edward will get the Thistle unless the Queen gives it to them as I don't see Charles giving any honours to any of his siblings. I like Charles but it is clear that he isn't that close to his brothers and really I don't see him wanting to give them any honours at all. I can see him wanting them to be phased out of the public life altogether and only appear at really big family affairs, although he will ensure that they won't be left with no income or anything like that.

I don't even think they will continue going to Sandringham for Christmas once Charles is King.

I do not agree with you. You just cannot say Prince Charles is not close to them so he wont give them titles and phase them out (1st of all how can we say he is not close to them..Should he hug them and put a broad plastic smile in front of media..OK leav it)..Such things are not done solely on monarch's preferences or instincts..Several factors are considered..such as the public standing of the person concerned, and more important, the necessity to increase the public standing of the person concerned..Do you seriously think Queen is close to Charles/Anne than Andrew/Edward to make them KT? Does any1 on TRF think so?
You just see..so much media coverage was given and many people (not ones on TRF) noticed Order of Thistle for 1st time, cos William was given..What would have happend if Andrew was given..forget any positive coverage..If at all they covered, they would have dug up all the nonsonse, and Sarah would have gone to oprah and cried for not inviting her..No one would care for Queen or Thistle. And for Edward it would be just a small column..I am not de-meaning them..I respect Prince Edward especially for his silent work..but thats the way monarchy works..pump the future ones and the central line..
Actually Princess Anne was lucky to get(earn) the "hard-working royal" image well in advance (before new-generation-surge). Otherwise even she might have been left out.
Wat u say

 

[EIIR]

I think Prince Charles is only concerned with keeping funds in his pocket... and that is the real reason of why he wants a slimmed down Royal Family. The less duties performed by royals the less he has to repay the Treasury. And I believe in Williams reign Princesses Beatrice & Eugenie will perform royal duties. Just think about it... the Gloucesters & Kents are getting older. William & Harry's children won't even be of age... there gonna need a pair of extra hands. And like Prince Andrew was saying, they're the only Princesses of their generation. I don't see the reason of why Charles wants to exclude them...

No, Charles is concerned with ensuring that the monarchy survives over the next 20-30 years. He wants to be able to hand over the reins to his son with the 'Firm' in rude health. Part of this is in acknowledging that the British people DO NOT want to have to be paying to secure anything other than the most senior royals. When the BRF are having to justify every penny they spend, to be ever more transparent with their finances, and frankly face several potentially very lean years as the British state tries to dig itself out of near insolvency, the BRF are going to have to demonstrate more and more value for money.

Unfortunately, this is very likely to mean that in the decades ahead, the future sovereigns just are not going to be able to justify bankrolling relatives who are not in close proximity to the throne in the way that the Queen has. Ask the British people if they want Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie performing royal duties and I'd bet the answer would be a resounding 'no'.

 

[Artemisia]

What about the Order of Merit? When did Charles receive his OM?

Charles received his Order of the Merit in 2002, so I strongly doubt William will be invested any time soon even though there is currently one vacant position.

The Order of Merit is usually given in recognition of distinguished service in the armed forces, or for contribution to art, literature. Only three royals - the Queen, Prince Philip and Prince Charles - are currently members of the Order. It is is limited to 24 people from the Commonwealth Realms, plus honorary members (the latter consisting of only one person, Nelson Mandela). There are only 23 members right now so in theory, William could become member of the Order of Merit at any time, but as I've already mentioned, I strongly doubt that's on the cards.