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  #921  
Old 06-20-2011, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
You cannot call her Princess Diana as she was not a Princess by blood.
People constantly find links between Diana and Catherine just because they can.
You're making a seriously OTT comment there about educated ladies liking horses.
I understood that Diana was officialy called "Diana princess of Wales" after her divorce, the only thing changed was her HRH was removed. As in Sarah duchess of York, and Alexandra princess of Denmark (untill she remarried)
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  #922  
Old 06-20-2011, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by auntie View Post
I understood that Diana was officialy called "Diana princess of Wales" after her divorce, the only thing changed was her HRH was removed. As in Sarah duchess of York, and Alexandra princess of Denmark (untill she remarried)
That's all good, but that doesn't mean calling her "Princess Diana" is correct. That's what I think Lumutqueen was referring to.
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  #923  
Old 06-20-2011, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Mia_mae View Post
The story about the allergy has never been confirmed. According to a journalist, Kathy Lette or something, Catherine said to her she was allergic, but she may have been joking.

If true I can see the irony specially someone in her position. It made me wonder if any royal ladies is allergic to flowers, that would be just as unfortunate

I am not sure that Catherine is really allergic to horses - but if this was true, I know that there is effective medication you can take.
Catherine's absence from Royal Ascot may therefore be no more than a reflection that William was on duty back in Wales and Catherine did not want to leave him.

With regard to the Kathy Lette story, I too read what Kathy Lette says took place - Kathy Lette [Australian Journalist and reputedly a strong republican] and her husband, left wing republican lawyer Geoffrey Robinson were both guests at a Celebrity Charity Polo match, in which Prince William was playing. Kathy Lette, [with her instinctive journalist's 'nosiness'!] was walking back to her seat at the polo when she says she came upon a little tent and peered in to see what it was - whereupon she found the then Catherine Middleton watching a TV monitor [which was showing the polo game.] Kathy Lette says she was a bit taken aback to find Catherine all by herself in a hot, stuffy little tent, and invited Catherine to come and join her in the stands. Catherine apparently refused, citing the fact that she needed to concentrate on the Polo match so that she could discuss it in minute detail with William later. There was also suggestion that Catherine had indicated she was 'tucked away' because she was allergic to horses.

Kathy Lette 'told all' in an article she wrote, also suggesting that it was terrible in this day and age that a young woman should even have to sacrifice comfort and sit in a tent simply to study a polo match so that she could discuss it with her man - almost a form of Victorian Subservience to Kathy Lette.

After she published the article, there was widespread comment that in fact nothing was further from the truth - Catherine had chosen the tent for the sake of privacy and her refusal to join Kathy Lette and her husband in the stands was seen as a masterstroke by Catherine to avoid the potential minefield of being seen to socialise with a journalist [and a republican one at that] and her equally Republican left wing husband.....

Thus we don't really know whether Catherine really is allergic to horses but is just very savvy... Certainly, as Kathy Lette chose to write about the incident, in my humble opinion it certainly shows that Catherine had made the right call in avoiding a potential minefield of a trap...........

Hope this helps


Alex
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  #924  
Old 06-20-2011, 02:31 PM
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Kathy Lette, [with her instinctive journalist's 'nosiness'!] was walking back to her seat at the polo when she says she came upon a little tent and peered in to see what it was - whereupon she found the then Catherine Middleton watching a TV monitor [which was showing the polo game.] Kathy Lette says she was a bit taken aback to find Catherine all by herself in a hot, stuffy little tent,
Haha, I just bet she "came upon" the tent. More like she was snooping around and knew that Catherine was in the tent. I'm liking the Duchess of Cambridge more and more as I hear some of these stories. Thanks for sharing.
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  #925  
Old 06-20-2011, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Cinderella5x View Post
That's all good, but that doesn't mean calling her "Princess Diana" is correct. That's what I think Lumutqueen was referring to.

You're quite correct Cinderella that Diana was never a Princess in her own right, although even the BP press office tended to use the term 'Princess Diana' in its briefings during the marriage of the Princess and on this basis I am sure that this privilege can be extended to the honourable members of this forum

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  #926  
Old 06-20-2011, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Princess of Durham View Post
Haha, I just bet she "came upon" the tent. More like she was snooping around and knew that Catherine was in the tent.......
Ah, Duchess, you and me both! My thoughts and sentiments exactly! It just proves how carefuly royals [or 'nearly royals'] have to be the whole time, thinking what the 'true' purpose of an apparently' harmless' invitation may really be!

Alex
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  #927  
Old 06-20-2011, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Diarist View Post
Please can I provide a little bit of background information about the flowers?...Alex
Ahhh, thank you very much for this educated insight to the floral gifts. I think it's lovely that people gift the Royal family when they visit anything, particularly if they gift them with something other than flowers (such as paintings, teddy bears etc.) It's a lovely gesture.

Regarding the Princess Diana conversation, this may sound VERY uneducated when it comes to the Royal family, but why is Princess Michael not called by her first name? Or is she called Marie-Christine, Princess Michael of Kent, but out of habit she has always been Princess Michael. Does it mean that if Charles did not have the Prince of Wales title, Diana would have been Princess Charles of Windsor, like Sarah would have been Princess Andrew of Windsor and Sophie, Princess Edward of Windsor had they not been given titles upon their marriage? I understand that their full titles include(ed) their husband's "Prince" title.
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  #928  
Old 06-20-2011, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Molly2101 View Post
Regarding the Princess Diana conversation, this may sound VERY uneducated when it comes to the Royal family, but why is Princess Michael not called by her first name? Or is she called Marie-Christine, Princess Michael of Kent, but out of habit she has always been Princess Michael. Does it mean that if Charles did not have the Prince of Wales title, Diana would have been Princess Charles of Windsor, like Sarah would have been Princess Andrew of Windsor and Sophie, Princess Edward of Windsor had they not been given titles upon their marriage? I understand that their full titles include(ed) their husband's "Prince" title.
She's Princess Michael because that's her husbands title. If he was a Duke of something, she's be Duchess M-C etc.
I don't think they would have been, of Windsor. But luckly they've been given titles so they're known by that.
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  #929  
Old 06-20-2011, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Molly2101 View Post
Regarding the Princess Diana conversation, this may sound VERY uneducated when it comes to the Royal family, but why is Princess Michael not called by her first name?
No need to feel uneducated, Molly, lots of people get muddled about titles, even people at BP.

There are two general principles to bear in mind: Under English Law [which is more or less the same in Scotland as well] all wives are entitled to use what is known as 'their husband's style and title'; forget the royal bit for a moment and if Jane Jones marries John Smith, she is entitled to be known as 'Mrs John Smith', which, incidentally, is how Royal Ascot will place the name on her badge if she is has the honour to be admitted to the Royal Enclosure. [In the same way that 'Alexandra' does not appear on my Royal Enclosure badge].

If Mrs Smith is divorced, she is then known as Mrs Jane Smith after the divorce.

With royals, anyone who marries into the royal family is entitled [just like English law for non-royals] to the use of her husband's style and title - Prince Charles was HRH the Prince of Wales, and so Diana was known as HRH the Princess of Wales during her marriage. Because she was not a Princess in her own right [unlike Princess Alexandra, the Princess Royal etc] Diana was not entitled to be styled 'Princess Diana', although, as I have said above, I attended numerous palace briefings when for the sake of concisness, BP staff at these informal occasions used to refer to her as Princess Diana.

This right to use the HRH on marriage is not absolute / automatic though - Burke's Peerage in one edition carried a scholarly essay about how the Duchess of Windsor was denied the right to be known as 'HRH' the Duchess of Windsor.

Princess Michael of Kent likewise is NOT a Princess in her own right and thus she takes the style and title of her husband, and thus she is correctly known as HRH Princess Michael of Kent, not Princess Marie-Christine.

As an aside, for years rumours have persisted that the Queen does not like Princess Micheal of Kent and privately calls her 'Our Val' [from Valkyrie] or 'BTL' which apparently stands for 'Billiard Table Legs' because (apparently) HRH's legs are her worst feature and resemble the legs of a billiard table [which none of us has any way of knowing whether they do or not!!!] What is quite clear is that Princess Michael knew of these rumours because she told a tv interviewer that these names were untrue as the Queen [when en famille] (according to PMK) calls her 'M-C', short for Marie Christine.

Hope some of this is helpful,

Alex
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  #930  
Old 06-20-2011, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Molly2101 View Post
...if Charles did not have the Prince of Wales title, Diana would have been Princess Charles of Windsor?
I think it is more likely Princess Charles of the UK. (Windsor is the BRF's surname since the time of George V) most of us remember Diana as Princess Diana, because Charles is more known on his Prince of Wales title, than anything else. She was also technically called Dutchess of Cornwall amongst other numerous titles Charles holds, but she will always be known as Princess Diana.
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  #931  
Old 06-20-2011, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
She's Princess Michael because that's her husbands title. If he was a Duke of something, she's be Duchess M-C etc.
I don't think they would have been, of Windsor. But luckly they've been given titles so they're known by that.

I don't think she would be Duchess M-C etc she'd be the Duchess of [Husband's Dukedom] as in Duchess of Kent, Duchess of Gloucester, Duchess of Cambridge etc etc.


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  #932  
Old 06-20-2011, 05:15 PM
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Diana's full title, while married, was Her Royal Highness The Princess Charles Philip Arthur George, Princess of Wales & Countess of Chester, Duchess of Cornwall, Duchess of Rothesay, Countess of Carrick, Baroness of Renfrew, Lady of the Isles, Princess of Scotland

Sophie's style and title in full:Her Royal Highness The Princess Edward Antony Richard Louis, Countess of Wessex, Viscountess Severn, Dame Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order, Dame of Justice of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St John of Jerusalem

Sarah Ferguson's full title during her marriage was Her Royal Highness The Princess Andrew Albert Christian Edward, Duchess of York, Countess of Inverness, Baroness Killyleagh.
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  #933  
Old 06-20-2011, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Molly2101 View Post
Regarding the Princess Diana conversation, this may sound VERY uneducated when it comes to the Royal family, but why is Princess Michael not called by her first name? Or is she called Marie-Christine, Princess Michael of Kent, but out of habit she has always been Princess Michael. Does it mean that if Charles did not have the Prince of Wales title, Diana would have been Princess Charles of Windsor, like Sarah would have been Princess Andrew of Windsor and Sophie, Princess Edward of Windsor had they not been given titles upon their marriage? I understand that their full titles include(ed) their husband's "Prince" title.

That is correct. If they didn't have other titles then their wives would have been Princess husband's name.

In Britain only princesses born are Princess own name. The others are Princess husband's name - just as they become a Duchess because their husband is a Duke and Duchess is the feminine form of Duke.

With regard to Princess Diana - she herself would correct people who called her that saying 'I am not Princess Diana you know'. I have read something from Richard Kay where he was chastised by her for referring to her that way to her fact but he still used it in writing about her.
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  #934  
Old 06-21-2011, 05:47 AM
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Diana was called Princess Diana, even though she was The Princess Charles. So someone down the line some uninformed journalist would probably have written Duchess M-C and it would have stuck. Just like Diana being called the Princess that she wasn't.
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  #935  
Old 06-21-2011, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
Because Diana was called Princess Diana, even though she was The Princess Charles. So someone down the line some uninformed journalist would probably have written Duchess M-C and it would have stuck. Just like Diana being called the Princess that she wasn't.
Now tell me.. who coined the phrase "Princess Pushy" in reference to M-C and why it came about. Coining a phrase to describe someone such as Tony Blair did with his "people's princess" remark still exists to this day. That remark alone fed into the Princess Diana frenzy.

To illustrate a point I'm going to use and example in my own life and if I can say so, I'm actually very well pleased at how it turned out. As young children I had a younger brother that was the proverbial pest. HIS grand insult to me was to call me girdle face whenever he could to "embarrass" me. I HATED it but counteracted in time and looked him in the eye and said "y'know that's not too bad. At least you're not calling me a turtle." To this day, he still calls me turtle. Of course over the years it grew to Chunky Turtle as he tried to unsnap my bathing suit top on the beach and resulted in all of my female friends at the time just calling me 'chunks". I've not thought about this in years but it kind of fits why "nicknames" stick on people. The only one that ever used my full given name was my mother and when she did, I knew I was in trouble deep. I think its the same with people associating with royalty. Princess of Wales becomes Princess Diana. Thing is, when someone called Diana Princess Diana, she'd correct them. To this day I'd bet if I called one of my friends from those years ago and stated my name, they'd go who? If I said "chunks", it'd identify me in an instant.

The only problem really with misusing the proper and correct form of address anywhere is really when the title and/or style itself is being abused and presented as not only wrong, but encouraged and the person himself/herself is encouraging it.

Signed,

Chunky Turtle
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  #936  
Old 06-21-2011, 07:23 AM
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Apparently Princess Anne coined the term Princess Pushy, just a rumour though.
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  #937  
Old 06-21-2011, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Now tell me.. who coined the phrase "Princess Pushy" in reference to M-C and why it came about. Coining a phrase to describe someone such as Tony Blair did with his "people's princess" remark still exists to this day. That remark alone fed into the Princess Diana frenzy.
This could well be a case of a journalist coining a phrase and repeatedly using it till it sticks - quite like Waity Katie, an invention by Katie Nichols of the Daily Mail. The name just stuck.
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  #938  
Old 06-21-2011, 01:55 PM
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Diana's full title, while married, was Her Royal Highness The Princess Charles Philip Arthur George, Princess of Wales & Countess of Chester, Duchess of Cornwall, Duchess of Rothesay, Countess of Carrick, Baroness of Renfrew, Lady of the Isles, Princess of Scotland
Diana's title was long!

I have another question about titles, then I will stop asking questions! If and when Prince Edward does inherit the Duke of Edinburgh title after the death of his parents, and Prince Charles allows him to have the title, I take it Sophie becomes Duchess of Edinburgh? Does it then also mean her full title would be The Princess Edward, Duchess of Edinburgh, Countess of Wessex, Viscountess Severn etc. Or does she lose the Countess of Wessex title?

What I also do not understand is why Sarah Ferguson kept her Duchess of York title upon her divorce to Andrew. I know she lost her HRH title, but I did it confusing that she is still referred to as a Duchess.
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  #939  
Old 06-21-2011, 02:08 PM
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What I also do not understand is why Sarah Ferguson kept her Duchess of York title upon her divorce to Andrew. I know she lost her HRH title, but I did it confusing that she is still referred to as a Duchess.
The former Countess of Wessex will keep this title as the duchess title is simply added to the titles of her husband which she shares.

As for Sarah: her "Sarah, Duchess of York" is not longer a title (as she no longer has a husband of that title) but just her name as the divorced wife of a peer (a man with a title). She could choose on her divorce between Sarah Mountbatten-Windsor or Sarah, Duchess of York because that's what British law allows. It's difficult to explain but "THE Duke of York/THE Duchess of York " is the title of the peerage while "Duke of York/Duchess of York" is the name.
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  #940  
Old 06-21-2011, 05:28 PM
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What I also do not understand is why Sarah Ferguson kept her Duchess of York title upon her divorce to Andrew. I know she lost her HRH title, but I did it confusing that she is still referred to as a Duchess.
If Miss Jane Jones marries Mr John Smith then Jane becomes Mrs John Smith. They then get divorced and she becomes Mrs Jane Smith - still keeping her husband's surname but now using the divorced style.

Why am I using this - because the same thing is happening with Sarah, and happened with Diana, when they divorced.

They went from Miss Sarah Ferguson/Lady Diana Spencer to HRH The Duchess of York/HRH The Princess of Wales to Sarah, Duchess of York and Diana, Princess of Wales. After their divorces they continued to use the standard divorced form of their ex-husband's styles. This is the same for all divorced wives of peers e.g. both the ex-wives of Earl Spencer have used this form after their divorces - Victoria, Countess Spencer. They lose that form at marriage but after a second divorce could again revert to that style.
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