Questions about British Styles and Titles

[Diarist]

Originally Posted by Molly2101

Regarding the Princess Diana conversation, this may sound VERY uneducated when it comes to the Royal family, but why is Princess Michael not called by her first name?

No need to feel uneducated, Molly, lots of people get muddled about titles, even people at BP.

There are two general principles to bear in mind: Under English Law [which is more or less the same in Scotland as well] all wives are entitled to use what is known as 'their husband's style and title'; forget the royal bit for a moment and if Jane Jones marries John Smith, she is entitled to be known as 'Mrs John Smith', which, incidentally, is how Royal Ascot will place the name on her badge if she is has the honour to be admitted to the Royal Enclosure. [In the same way that 'Alexandra' does not appear on my Royal Enclosure badge].

If Mrs Smith is divorced, she is then known as Mrs Jane Smith after the divorce.

With royals, anyone who marries into the royal family is entitled [just like English law for non-royals] to the use of her husband's style and title - Prince Charles was HRH the Prince of Wales, and so Diana was known as HRH the Princess of Wales during her marriage. Because she was not a Princess in her own right [unlike Princess Alexandra, the Princess Royal etc] Diana was not entitled to be styled 'Princess Diana', although, as I have said above, I attended numerous palace briefings when for the sake of concisness, BP staff at these informal occasions used to refer to her as Princess Diana.

This right to use the HRH on marriage is not absolute / automatic though - Burke's Peerage in one edition carried a scholarly essay about how the Duchess of Windsor was denied the right to be known as 'HRH' the Duchess of Windsor.

Princess Michael of Kent likewise is NOT a Princess in her own right and thus she takes the style and title of her husband, and thus she is correctly known as HRH Princess Michael of Kent, not Princess Marie-Christine.

As an aside, for years rumours have persisted that the Queen does not like Princess Micheal of Kent and privately calls her 'Our Val' [from Valkyrie] or 'BTL' which apparently stands for 'Billiard Table Legs' because (apparently) HRH's legs are her worst feature and resemble the legs of a billiard table [which none of us has any way of knowing whether they do or not!!!] What is quite clear is that Princess Michael knew of these rumours because she told a tv interviewer that these names were untrue as the Queen [when en famille] (according to PMK) calls her 'M-C', short for Marie Christine.

Hope some of this is helpful,

Alex

[auntie]

Originally Posted by Molly2101

...if Charles did not have the Prince of Wales title, Diana would have been Princess Charles of Windsor?

I think it is more likely Princess Charles of the UK. (Windsor is the BRF's surname since the time of George V) most of us remember Diana as Princess Diana, because Charles is more known on his Prince of Wales title, than anything else. She was also technically called Dutchess of Cornwall amongst other numerous titles Charles holds, but she will always be known as Princess Diana.

[Diarist]

Originally Posted by Lumutqueen

She's Princess Michael because that's her husbands title. If he was a Duke of something, she's be Duchess M-C etc.
I don't think they would have been, of Windsor. But luckly they've been given titles so they're known by that.

I don't think she would be Duchess M-C etc she'd be the Duchess of [Husband's Dukedom] as in Duchess of Kent, Duchess of Gloucester, Duchess of Cambridge etc etc.


Aex

[MagMil]

Diana's full title, while married, was Her Royal Highness The Princess Charles Philip Arthur George, Princess of Wales & Countess of Chester, Duchess of Cornwall, Duchess of Rothesay, Countess of Carrick, Baroness of Renfrew, Lady of the Isles, Princess of Scotland

Sophie's style and title in full:Her Royal Highness The Princess Edward Antony Richard Louis, Countess of Wessex, Viscountess Severn, Dame Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order, Dame of Justice of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St John of Jerusalem

Sarah Ferguson's full title during her marriage was Her Royal Highness The Princess Andrew Albert Christian Edward, Duchess of York, Countess of Inverness, Baroness Killyleagh.

[Iluvbertie]

Originally Posted by Molly2101

Regarding the Princess Diana conversation, this may sound VERY uneducated when it comes to the Royal family, but why is Princess Michael not called by her first name? Or is she called Marie-Christine, Princess Michael of Kent, but out of habit she has always been Princess Michael. Does it mean that if Charles did not have the Prince of Wales title, Diana would have been Princess Charles of Windsor, like Sarah would have been Princess Andrew of Windsor and Sophie, Princess Edward of Windsor had they not been given titles upon their marriage? I understand that their full titles include(ed) their husband's "Prince" title.

That is correct. If they didn't have other titles then their wives would have been Princess husband's name.

In Britain only princesses born are Princess own name. The others are Princess husband's name - just as they become a Duchess because their husband is a Duke and Duchess is the feminine form of Duke.

With regard to Princess Diana - she herself would correct people who called her that saying 'I am not Princess Diana you know'. I have read something from Richard Kay where he was chastised by her for referring to her that way to her fact but he still used it in writing about her.

[Lumutqueen]

Diana was called Princess Diana, even though she was The Princess Charles. So someone down the line some uninformed journalist would probably have written Duchess M-C and it would have stuck. Just like Diana being called the Princess that she wasn't.

[Osipi]

Originally Posted by Lumutqueen

Because Diana was called Princess Diana, even though she was The Princess Charles. So someone down the line some uninformed journalist would probably have written Duchess M-C and it would have stuck. Just like Diana being called the Princess that she wasn't.

Now tell me.. who coined the phrase "Princess Pushy" in reference to M-C and why it came about. Coining a phrase to describe someone such as Tony Blair did with his "people's princess" remark still exists to this day. That remark alone fed into the Princess Diana frenzy.

To illustrate a point I'm going to use and example in my own life and if I can say so, I'm actually very well pleased at how it turned out. As young children I had a younger brother that was the proverbial pest. HIS grand insult to me was to call me girdle face whenever he could to "embarrass" me. I HATED it but counteracted in time and looked him in the eye and said "y'know that's not too bad. At least you're not calling me a turtle." To this day, he still calls me turtle. Of course over the years it grew to Chunky Turtle as he tried to unsnap my bathing suit top on the beach and resulted in all of my female friends at the time just calling me 'chunks". I've not thought about this in years but it kind of fits why "nicknames" stick on people. The only one that ever used my full given name was my mother and when she did, I knew I was in trouble deep. I think its the same with people associating with royalty. Princess of Wales becomes Princess Diana. Thing is, when someone called Diana Princess Diana, she'd correct them. To this day I'd bet if I called one of my friends from those years ago and stated my name, they'd go who? If I said "chunks", it'd identify me in an instant.

The only problem really with misusing the proper and correct form of address anywhere is really when the title and/or style itself is being abused and presented as not only wrong, but encouraged and the person himself/herself is encouraging it.

Signed,

Chunky Turtle

[Lumutqueen]

Apparently Princess Anne coined the term Princess Pushy, just a rumour though.

[muriel]

Originally Posted by Osipi

Now tell me.. who coined the phrase "Princess Pushy" in reference to M-C and why it came about. Coining a phrase to describe someone such as Tony Blair did with his "people's princess" remark still exists to this day. That remark alone fed into the Princess Diana frenzy.

This could well be a case of a journalist coining a phrase and repeatedly using it till it sticks - quite like Waity Katie, an invention by Katie Nichols of the Daily Mail. The name just stuck.

[Molly2101]

Originally Posted by MagMil

Diana's full title, while married, was Her Royal Highness The Princess Charles Philip Arthur George, Princess of Wales & Countess of Chester, Duchess of Cornwall, Duchess of Rothesay, Countess of Carrick, Baroness of Renfrew, Lady of the Isles, Princess of Scotland

Diana's title was long!

I have another question about titles, then I will stop asking questions! If and when Prince Edward does inherit the Duke of Edinburgh title after the death of his parents, and Prince Charles allows him to have the title, I take it Sophie becomes Duchess of Edinburgh? Does it then also mean her full title would be The Princess Edward, Duchess of Edinburgh, Countess of Wessex, Viscountess Severn etc. Or does she lose the Countess of Wessex title?

What I also do not understand is why Sarah Ferguson kept her Duchess of York title upon her divorce to Andrew. I know she lost her HRH title, but I did it confusing that she is still referred to as a Duchess.

[Kataryn]

Originally Posted by Molly2101

What I also do not understand is why Sarah Ferguson kept her Duchess of York title upon her divorce to Andrew. I know she lost her HRH title, but I did it confusing that she is still referred to as a Duchess.

The former Countess of Wessex will keep this title as the duchess title is simply added to the titles of her husband which she shares.

As for Sarah: her "Sarah, Duchess of York" is not longer a title (as she no longer has a husband of that title) but just her name as the divorced wife of a peer (a man with a title). She could choose on her divorce between Sarah Mountbatten-Windsor or Sarah, Duchess of York because that's what British law allows. It's difficult to explain but "THE Duke of York/THE Duchess of York " is the title of the peerage while "Duke of York/Duchess of York" is the name.

[Iluvbertie]

Originally Posted by Molly2101

What I also do not understand is why Sarah Ferguson kept her Duchess of York title upon her divorce to Andrew. I know she lost her HRH title, but I did it confusing that she is still referred to as a Duchess.

If Miss Jane Jones marries Mr John Smith then Jane becomes Mrs John Smith. They then get divorced and she becomes Mrs Jane Smith - still keeping her husband's surname but now using the divorced style.

Why am I using this - because the same thing is happening with Sarah, and happened with Diana, when they divorced.

They went from Miss Sarah Ferguson/Lady Diana Spencer to HRH The Duchess of York/HRH The Princess of Wales to Sarah, Duchess of York and Diana, Princess of Wales. After their divorces they continued to use the standard divorced form of their ex-husband's styles. This is the same for all divorced wives of peers e.g. both the ex-wives of Earl Spencer have used this form after their divorces - Victoria, Countess Spencer. They lose that form at marriage but after a second divorce could again revert to that style.

[branchg]

Sarah is no longer a Duchess. With divorce, she retained her former title as a style, similar to a surname, as the former wife of a Peer and Royal Prince. She lost her royal rank, style and title as HRH The Duchess of York because she enjoyed these attributes as the wife of the title holder, not in her own right.

Diana was also officially no longer a Princess with divorce. However, because she was the mother of a future King, The Queen agreed Diana would remain a member of the royal family (informally at best) and it was announced she would be granted her former precedence on all state and national occasions. She was also permitted to retain the style of a Princess as a courtesy.

[MagMil]

Originally Posted by Molly2101

... If and when Prince Edward does inherit the Duke of Edinburgh title after the death of his parents, and Prince Charles allows him to have the title, I take it Sophie becomes Duchess of Edinburgh?

She will keep the Countess of Wessex title , but when Prince Edward inherit the Duke of Edinburgh title , Sophie short form probably gonna be Duchess of Edinburgh

But full title is gonna be: Her Royal Highness The Princess Edward Antony Richard Louis, Duchess of Edinburgh,Countess of Wessex, Viscountess Severn, Dame Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order, Dame of Justice of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St John of Jerusalem

[Iluvbertie]

Of course Edward may not ever become Duke of Edinburgh but his chances of actually inheriting that title are very very slim - for him to inherit it, Charles, William, Harry and Andrew would all have to predecease Philip.

If by some chance Edward does inherit the title then her titles would actually be Her Royal Highness The Princess Edward Antony Richard Louis, Duchess of Edinburgh, Countess of Merioneth, Countess of Wessex, Viscountess Severn, Baroness Greenwich, Dame Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order, Dame of Justice of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St John of Jerusalem

The two I have added are because they are the rest of Philip's titles and if Edinburgh is inherited then they would also be inherited by Edward but if the Edinburgh merges with the Crown then so will Merioneth and Greenwich and they would also be available for regrant but not necessarily to Edward.

[cmkrcwi]

Originally Posted by MagMil

Diana's full title, while married, was Her Royal Highness The Princess Charles Philip Arthur George, Princess of Wales & Countess of Chester, Duchess of Cornwall, Duchess of Rothesay, Countess of Carrick, Baroness of Renfrew, Lady of the Isles, Princess of Scotland

Sophie's style and title in full:Her Royal Highness The Princess Edward Antony Richard Louis, Countess of Wessex, Viscountess Severn, Dame Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order, Dame of Justice of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St John of Jerusalem

Sarah Ferguson's full title during her marriage was Her Royal Highness The Princess Andrew Albert Christian Edward, Duchess of York, Countess of Inverness, Baroness Killyleagh.

You are wrong on all three counts. Diana's title was HRH The Princess of Wales plus all of Charles' other titles. She was never The Princess Charles because Charles was never The Prince Charles. He was born HRH Prince Charles of Edinburgh and when his mother became Queen, he automatically became HRH The Duke of Cornwall and then HRH The Prince of Wales. He has never been HRH The Prince Charles Philip Arthur George. He is a Prince of the United Kingdom and his name is Charles Philip Arthur George but that has never been his title.

Andrew, on the other hand, was once The Prince Andrew. However, he received the title of Duke of York on his wedding day which means he was no longer The Prince Andrew. Thus his wife became HRH The Duchess of York (plus all his other titles) but did not become The Princess Andrew because Andrew himself no longer had that title.

Same thing with Edward and Sophie. She is HRH The Countess of Wessex because her husband is HRH The Earl of Wessex. She is not The Princess Edward because he no longer has that title.

[Iluvbertie]

You have been told again and again that you are wrong.

Of course Charles was The Prince Charles as the child of the monarch that is the first title he has - he doesn't use it because he has other titles but he still is, and has been since 1952 The Prince Charles.

The same with his brothers - they have been since birth The Prince Andrew and The Prince Edward. They didn't lose those titles when they became The Duke of York and The Earl of Wessex.

The same with William today - he is still Prince William - he didn't lose that title when he became The Duke of Cambridge.

[Super Baroness]

Originally Posted by cmkrcwi

...Charles was never The Prince Charles.

If you want to see The Prince Charles used in official capacity, the Court Circular (I read it on the British Monarchy's Facebook page) lists "The Prince Charles, Duke of Rothesay" when referring to The Prince of Wales in Scotland.

[Iluvbertie]

Originally Posted by Super Baroness

If you want to see The Prince Charles used in official capacity, the Court Circular (I read it on the British Monarchy's Facebook page) lists "The Prince Charles, Duke of Rothesay" when referring to The Prince of Wales in Scotland.

Thank you - I had forgetten that he was referred to that way in Scotland.

[NotHRH]

I thought the 'HRH, the Duke of Edinburgh' title would be inherited by HRH the Earl of Wessex upon the death the passing of his father who is now 'HRH Duke of Edinburgh.' I have do not recall reading the Earl will only receive his father's current title only if Charles, William, Harry, and Andrew predecease HRH Prince Philip/Duke of Edinburgh/Prince-consort of HM QEII. Or did I misunderstand the process for HRH the Earl of Wessex/HRH the Prince Edward to become HRH the Duke of Edinburgh? Why would QEII 'give' the EoW a royal title that is impossible for him to attain? I am confused!