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  #841  
Old 03-16-2011, 07:05 PM
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If Charles couldn't get rid of his POW title, how come Edward could get rid of his King title?
He wouldn't be the heir apparant, so he would at least have no right to keep it.
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  #842  
Old 03-16-2011, 07:09 PM
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Edward "got rid of" his Kingly position and title through an Act of Parliament.
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  #843  
Old 03-27-2011, 12:51 AM
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Someone has been reading here!

Here's a link to an interesting interview with the editor of Debrett's.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/peer-pressure-before-the-royal-wedding-some-tutelage-on-british-titles/2011/03/22/AF9qKSYB_story.html

"There are Americans who know all of this stuff, who own copies of Debrett’s or its competitor Burke’s, who go on message boards and pooh-pooh the people who refer to Princess Diana, when there was never a Princess Diana.While she and Prince Charles were married, her correct title was Her Royal Highness the Princess of Wales; after their divorce, she was styled Diana, Princess of Wales. (Right now — right now — these same people are annoyed that I didn’t note that Prince Edward might have chosen the title of Earl of Wessex because he will likely also inherit the dukedom of Edinburgh from his dad.)"
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  #844  
Old 03-27-2011, 03:42 AM
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If the editor of Debrett's really said the Edward is likely to 'inherit the dukedom of Edinburgh from his dad' then he needs a lesson in inheritance laws - Edward's chances of inheriting the Edinburgh title are rather slim as it will require all of Charles, William, any sons of William, Harry without legitimate male issue and Andrew all to predecease Philip and/or The Queen - so that Beatrice, or a daughter of William's or Harry's inherits the throne - but the Edinburgh title can still be in existance to be 'inherited' by Edward - the expectation is that at some point it will merge with the Crown and then be re-created for Edward.
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  #845  
Old 03-27-2011, 03:57 AM
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Try reading the article. It is some American journalist. She quotes the Debrett's guy, but says he makes no sense, and dumbs it down by quoting an American author instead. She comments that all the actual titles are taken, so they just 'invent' new titles, like Edward's from Shakspeare in Love. She compares Lord Snowdon to Madonna, saying he goes by Snowdon and nothing else. That they will just invent some crazy new name for Katherine and William.

The woman in the quote above was bitching about being attacked on forums like this. That she had got jumped on about mentioning the proper way to address Diana, and that she forgets to mention Edward is Earl of Wessex because it is intended for him to be Duke of Edinburgh.

She goes on to say that people like us act as know it alls, to lord it over stupid Americans, who don't understand the traditions.

And to be honest I can admit she may be right with some. I had heard about Edward becoming Duke of Edinburgh. I assumed he'd inherit the title from his dad. It wasn't until I got older, and did research, I realized it had to merge with the crown with Charles, and then be recreated. Not everyone is a royalty fanatic, and makes honest mistakes.

But the article is a joke, a woman who seems extremely perterbed at being corrected on sites like this.
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  #846  
Old 03-27-2011, 04:22 AM
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The author in question was Kitty Kelley, who is said in the article to be "Washington-based" - isn't she British? I know she is author of a rather scandalous book about the Windsors which is not only sleazy in parts but contains a lot of made-up claims which are, of course, negative.

Not the person I would ask to be my "Expert".
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  #847  
Old 03-27-2011, 04:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by melissaadrian View Post
Try reading the article...
I did read the article - many times in fact before making my post and having read the article about six times I am still not clear who made the comment at issue - the editor of Debrett's - who is quoted at times, Kitty Kelley - who is also quoted (and should know better given the supposed research she has done in writing her book on the Windsors) or the writer of the article itself, Monica Hesse.

Having read and re-read the passage I wasn't sure who said what, which is why I used the word 'IF'

Considering that some parts have "quotation marks" and others haven't I am not sure whether the parts out of quotes are just being there because they were too lazy to put them in again or whether those bits are supposed to be by Ms Hesse herself (the passage in question doesn't have any quotation marks - which could indicate Ms Hesse).
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  #848  
Old 03-27-2011, 04:34 AM
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Ketty Kelley is quoted at times but so is Mr Kidd, the editor of Debrett's.

Both of these two should have some idea - Kelley based on the research she allegedly did on her book on the Windsors (which simply repeated every scandal ever affecting the family) and Mr Kidd - whose very position would rest on it.
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  #849  
Old 03-27-2011, 07:46 AM
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I wouldn't have a book written by Kitty Kelley in my house. She is not a good author in my book (I know who cares what Zonk thinks). Her sources are questionable.

First of all, the Snowdon being referred to his first name, like Madonna! What nonsense. I think the article is very tongue in cheek, somewhat sarcastic. I mean she has to bring up the late Duke of Clarence possibly being Jack the Ripper. Not mentioning of course, that I believe this theory has been disproved some time ago. So she isn't looking to write a legtimate article.

I can't imagine Mr. Kidd getting it wrong about the title for Edward and the future of the Duke of Edinburgh title. Moreso the author didn't understand or tried to edit her notes. But hey, anything is possible I guess.
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  #850  
Old 03-28-2011, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
I think the article is very tongue in cheek, somewhat sarcastic. I mean she has to bring up the late Duke of Clarence possibly being Jack the Ripper. Not mentioning of course, that I believe this theory has been disproved some time ago. So she isn't looking to write a legtimate article.
I read this article from the actual newspaper while having breakfast the other morning. It was in the Style section which is for show business and entertainment articles. It was definitely supposed to be light-hearted reading. It made *me* laugh, at any rate. I think it did capture the intimidated feeling Americans sometimes get when faced with anything they feel is properly British, or at least sounds that way, which I think is why we see a lot of infomercial hosts on TV these days that use British accents.
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  #851  
Old 03-29-2011, 01:03 AM
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I feel like I'm going in circles. There were some questions about styles and titles on another thread, I thought the posts were moved over here, and on this thread, there's a discussion about Kitty Kelly.

Perhaps I need to go back a few pages.

I went back, and find the topic somewhat derailed. No matter, it will come up again.
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  #852  
Old 03-29-2011, 11:49 AM
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I add a big "you go girl" to Zonk! She is so right about Kitty Kelley. Garbage in, garbage out! And, unfortunately, a lot of Americans gobble that stuff up. I have a subscription to Tatler and am struck by the difference in coverage of the upcoming wedding than you find in People (which seems actually a lot better than some). I picked up a copy in an airport yesterday and thought how much more we who use the forum know than even the mainstream papers and magazines like People do. And it seems also that they are somewhat behind the information curve.

I've lived in England so am more informed than many of my countrymen, but that's not a criticism of my fellow Americans. My criticism is leveled at the Kitty Kelley's of this world who write sensationalist faux-journalism.
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  #853  
Old 03-29-2011, 12:12 PM
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How could someone be a Prince of the Realm if only his wife was styled by courtesy HRH? When would that ever happen? Is there an example of it (Maybe I would understand, then).

But let me try and get one part straight. A person can have a title, such as Princess, and not be HRH, but which could be granted as a courtesy? (Am I anywhere close?)

The Queen is automatically HRH, right? Who else is automatically HRH, if anyone? I would think the Prince of Wales, the Princess Royal, at minimum. Again, am I getting it at all?

The title HRH is not always by courtesy, then (if it belongs automatically to the Queen).

But to whom, other than the Queen, does it belong automatically, I guess is my question. Maybe the answer is simple!
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  #854  
Old 03-29-2011, 09:32 PM
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The 1917 Letters Patent of George V determine who is automatically and HRH. Under those LPs the current HRH's are:

Charles, Andrew, Edward, Anne - children of the monarch

William, Harry, Beatrice, Eugenie, Louise, James, Richard of Gloucester, Edward of Kent, Michael of Kent, Alexandra of Kent - male-line grandchildren of the monarch (although Louise and James aren't using it).

The wives of any of the above.

Note Anne's children, like Margaret's and Mary's (George V's daughter) don't get it because they are female line grandchildren.

The only other HRH in Britain is Philip who was given the title by special LPs in 1957.

The main reason for giving the men Dukedoms was to stop them being able to stand for election to the House of Commons by giving them a seat in the House of Lords but that reason has now gone - yes all the members of the royal family except for the Queen can vote and stand for election (but they don't).
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  #855  
Old 03-29-2011, 10:36 PM
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Just a minor correction, if I may? DoE was granted the HRH as well as the Dukedom of Edinburgh, etc when he married then Princess Elizabeth. However he never got the Prince of the Realm title until 1957, even though people thought he was a prince before then (due to some confusion over the grant of HRH and that he previously was a Prince (of Greece and Denmark))
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  #856  
Old 03-30-2011, 12:41 AM
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Of course - I should have made that clearer - HRH of the UK in 1947 with his Dukedom but 'The Prince of the UK' in 1957.
He is the exception to the 1917 LPs, which is what I meant and didn't make clear - thanks for that clarification.

To be clear to everyone else:

Philip - born 1921 - as HRH Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark
sometime in 1947 renounced Greek and Danish titles - although no documents have ever been produced
November 1947 - created HRH The Duke of Edinburgh
1957 - created The Prince Philip of the UK

People often say that George VI didn't know that he hadn't created Philip a Prince but there is a report that somewhere at either Balmoral or Sandringham a courtier recorded Philip's presence as Prince Philip and George VI crossed out the work 'Prince'.
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  #857  
Old 03-30-2011, 03:33 PM
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And the Queen is HM, Her Majesty, not HRH, though she was HRH before her accession to the throne.
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  #858  
Old 03-30-2011, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal_Eagle View Post

Just a minor correction, if I may? DoE was granted the HRH as well as the Dukedom of Edinburgh, etc when he married then Princess Elizabeth. However he never got the Prince of the Realm title until 1957, even though people thought he was a prince before then (due to some confusion over the grant of HRH and that he previously was a Prince (of Greece and Denmark))
The point is that the British only accept their own Royalty as HRH when they are British citizens. All other Royals are foreigners and are of course awarded their rank as long as they don't want to become British citizens.

So Philip of Greece and Denmark was HRH as long as he was a Greek citizen. But when he applied for British citizenship, he lost his style. As he only applied for British citizenship in order to marry Elizabeth, he got his rank back. His cousin Katherine, HRH Princess of Greece and Denmark wanted to become a British citizen (and subject) on marrying a British subject. She was given letters patent so she, while not a HRH in Britian, was considered the "daughter of a duke"when it came to precedence and the style "Lady Katherine". Outside of the Uk, especially in Denmark, she of course was still HRH Princess Katherine of Greece and Denmark. In the Uk she was Lady Katherine with the quite elevated rank of the daughter of a duke.
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  #859  
Old 03-30-2011, 05:29 PM
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I think I'm getting it. So the automatically created HRH's are one group, and the by courtesy HRH's are another group.
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  #860  
Old 03-30-2011, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessKaimi View Post
I think I'm getting it. So the automatically created HRH's are one group, and the by courtesy HRH's are another group.

I don't know what you mean by 'by courtesy HRH's'?

I can't think of anyone who is an HRH 'by courtesy'.

The LPs state that the children, male line grandchildren, eldest son of the eldest son and the wives of male HRH's are all automatically HRH.

The only one who doesn't meet that criteria was Philip who was created an HRH by his future father-in-law in November, 1947 and a Prince by his wife in 1957.

Camilla, Sophie, Brigitte, Katherine and Marie-Christine (Princess Michael) all gained HRH automatically on marriage - and would lose it just as automatically on divorce according to the LPs issued in August 1996 (when Diana divorced Charles, but interestingly enough months after Sarah and Andrew divorced).

Kate Middleton will be HRH automatically she says 'I Do', William says 'I Do' and the Archbishop proclaims them 'man and wife' (or whatever term he uses on the day e.g. husband and wife).
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