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  #821  
Old 02-04-2011, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
A girl can't pass on titles unless she is the monarch - only a boy can.
This is the general rule; but it's possible a special reminder contained in the Letters Patent, which allowes women to succeed and transmit the title to their descendants in case of lack of male heirs; i.e. the titles of Earl Mountbatten of Burma, Duke of Marlborough, Baron Ravensdale.
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  #822  
Old 02-09-2011, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by summrbrew2 View Post
ok, so now i think my question has changed. why do they use their duke and duchess or count and countess titles over their prince and princess ones?
Royal duke's don't give up their princely titles, however a dukedom is such a valuable sustantive title that monarchs bestow them on their own children (sons) usually at the time of their marriage. A royal duke would be styled HRH The Duke of York. He is understood to be a prince of the realm since he (or his wife by courtesy) is styled royal highness. A non-royal duke would be His Grace The Duke of Wellington.
Queen Victoria was very fond of giving honors on her birthday May 24th. Her eldest grandson, Prince Albert Victor was granted a dukedom (Duke of Clarence and Avondale) even though he was not yet married mainly because he was the eldest son of the Prince of Wales, the future Edward VII.

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Originally Posted by AnnEliza View Post
What is the difference between his being Prince Consort and the title he has now? Was it Prince Albert who was Prince Consort -- how did that make a difference? (Not arguing, I'm asking for information.)
Albert was created Prince Consort mainly to give him greater precedence at foreign state functions. Even though he was married to the reigning British monarch, there were others that outranked him in their own right. This was done as a personal honor to Albert but to also correct that embarrassing and awkward situation abroad.
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  #823  
Old 02-09-2011, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAfan View Post
This is the general rule; but it's possible a special reminder contained in the Letters Patent, which allowes women to succeed and transmit the title to their descendants in case of lack of male heirs; i.e. the titles of Earl Mountbatten of Burma, Duke of Marlborough, Baron Ravensdale.

However had you read fully the entire post that contained that comment you would have realised that I was referring to the children of the monarch under the 1917 LPs - and under those LPs only sons pass on titles not daughters.
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  #824  
Old 02-13-2011, 10:24 PM
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Peerage succession question

I know that most of the peerage titles in the UK can only be inherited by males, however does that work from one generation directly to the next or can a generation be skipped?

For example, if say Princess Beatrice had a son in the future, could Prince Andrew's Duke of York title directly pass to his grandson, or does the fact that it has to pass through a woman (even if the woman herself doesn't inherit it) invalidate it?

I assume the rules would be the same for the various Earls, Viscounts, etc?
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  #825  
Old 02-14-2011, 02:46 AM
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No - even if Beatrice has a son that son won't be eligible to be Duke of York as only heirs born of a male heir can inherit.
Of course, if the LPs allowed female inheritance then the situation would be different.

The current Duke of York LPs, like Edinburgh and Wessex allow 'male heirs of the body' which means sons and their sons but not through the daughters at all. Andrew's title will become extinct on his death, unless he marries again and has a son to inherit the title. The Edinburgh title will go to Charles first and then it will depend on what title Charles holds at the time. The Wessex title will pass to James and then to his son, but if James has no son then it will become extinct as it can't pass to Louise and her descendents.

Some titles have passed to nephews for instance due to no direct heir and some titles have become extinct - daughters but not sons.
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  #826  
Old 02-20-2011, 09:32 PM
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Is there the chance that future LPs issued would have gender neutral remainders on who may inherit the titles? Maybe the Queen might not do that, but might future King Charles III/George VI do that? I can see the future King William V doing that though, but not sure about the others?
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  #827  
Old 02-21-2011, 01:24 AM
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Assuming any more heriditary peerages are granted then yes it would be possible to have gender neutral remainders.
It is also possible that Parliament could pass legislation affecting all peerages to make the succession gender neutral.
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  #828  
Old 03-15-2011, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by sliver_bic View Post
Harry's title, like Beatrice and Eugenie's, come from the fact that they are male line grandchildren of a monarch, as such the title can be given to a spouse (only in Harry's case) but not the children.
I didn't know this. I thought that P. Harry's children would also be HRH Prince or Princess. Wouldn't his children be eligible (once Charles was king) as the grandchildren of the Sovereign? I know any children of Pss B & E would not be titled (unless their father is titled) as they are women, but I was sure Harry's children would be titled.
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  #829  
Old 03-15-2011, 10:11 PM
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Under the 1917 LPs during the present reign the children of Harry won't be HRH Prince/Princess (nor will the children of William except his eldest son). They will automatically rise to that status when Charles becomes King.

However, if Charles predeceases his mother then the possibility exists that Harry's children may never become HRH.

It is also possible that the Queen could issue new LPs giving them the HRH style from birth (as happened in 1948 when she was expecting Charles as otherwise he would have been born Lord Charles Mountbatten and use the courtesy title of Earl of Merioneth - his father's second title and Anne would have been born as Lady Anne Mountbatten).
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  #830  
Old 03-16-2011, 04:51 PM
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Something I'm wondering about. What exactly is the rules for The Prince of Wales title. Is it given specifically to the eldest son without any other consideration, or the heir apparent whoever that may be?

Hypothetical situation: Imagine for a moment that back in the '70s, Prince Charles falls in love with a catholic woman who doesn't intend to convert. He makes it clear that if he's refused permission to marry her under the RMA, he'll follow the example set by his great-uncle and renounce his right to the throne, essentially choosing love over dynastic burden. So assent is reluctantly given and Charles is eliminated from the succession upon marriage. Does he keep the Prince of Wales title, or does it then get conferred onto the teenage Andrew, the new heir to the throne? Or would there just be no Prince of Wales at all?

Also as the Dukes of Cornwall and Rothesay titles are supposed to belong to the heir apparent, would they get transferred to Andrew, or would they stay with Charles and eventually cease to become royal dukedoms (assuming Charles and his wife continue the line far enough) as Kent and Gloucester soon will?

Yes, would never have happened I know. I'm just curious as to how it would work.
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  #831  
Old 03-16-2011, 05:22 PM
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He wouldn't keep it, because he is no longer heir apparant. As to whether Andrew is conferred is a different matter. Andrew would be the heir apparant, and could not be displaced so he should in theory be the new Prince of Wales. However like the Duke of Windsor title, it might be a little tainted.
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  #832  
Old 03-16-2011, 06:18 PM
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I'm not sure that there's a way for him to relinquish the title, though. The letters patent creating him Prince of Wales said that the "name, style, title, dignity, and honour" of the principality was his "to hold to him and his heirs, Kings of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and of [the Queen's] other realms and territories, heads of the Commonwealth forever." I suppose there's a case that the "Kings of the United Kingdom", etc. part is a dependent clause that could modify the "forever" enough to nullify it if it ever became clear that he and his heirs would not ever reign, but the only way to be sure would be through an act of Parliament.
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  #833  
Old 03-16-2011, 07:05 PM
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If Charles couldn't get rid of his POW title, how come Edward could get rid of his King title?
He wouldn't be the heir apparant, so he would at least have no right to keep it.
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  #834  
Old 03-16-2011, 07:09 PM
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Edward "got rid of" his Kingly position and title through an Act of Parliament.
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  #835  
Old 03-27-2011, 12:51 AM
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Someone has been reading here!

Here's a link to an interesting interview with the editor of Debrett's.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/peer-pressure-before-the-royal-wedding-some-tutelage-on-british-titles/2011/03/22/AF9qKSYB_story.html

"There are Americans who know all of this stuff, who own copies of Debrett’s or its competitor Burke’s, who go on message boards and pooh-pooh the people who refer to Princess Diana, when there was never a Princess Diana.While she and Prince Charles were married, her correct title was Her Royal Highness the Princess of Wales; after their divorce, she was styled Diana, Princess of Wales. (Right now — right now — these same people are annoyed that I didn’t note that Prince Edward might have chosen the title of Earl of Wessex because he will likely also inherit the dukedom of Edinburgh from his dad.)"
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  #836  
Old 03-27-2011, 03:42 AM
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If the editor of Debrett's really said the Edward is likely to 'inherit the dukedom of Edinburgh from his dad' then he needs a lesson in inheritance laws - Edward's chances of inheriting the Edinburgh title are rather slim as it will require all of Charles, William, any sons of William, Harry without legitimate male issue and Andrew all to predecease Philip and/or The Queen - so that Beatrice, or a daughter of William's or Harry's inherits the throne - but the Edinburgh title can still be in existance to be 'inherited' by Edward - the expectation is that at some point it will merge with the Crown and then be re-created for Edward.
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  #837  
Old 03-27-2011, 03:57 AM
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Try reading the article. It is some American journalist. She quotes the Debrett's guy, but says he makes no sense, and dumbs it down by quoting an American author instead. She comments that all the actual titles are taken, so they just 'invent' new titles, like Edward's from Shakspeare in Love. She compares Lord Snowdon to Madonna, saying he goes by Snowdon and nothing else. That they will just invent some crazy new name for Katherine and William.

The woman in the quote above was bitching about being attacked on forums like this. That she had got jumped on about mentioning the proper way to address Diana, and that she forgets to mention Edward is Earl of Wessex because it is intended for him to be Duke of Edinburgh.

She goes on to say that people like us act as know it alls, to lord it over stupid Americans, who don't understand the traditions.

And to be honest I can admit she may be right with some. I had heard about Edward becoming Duke of Edinburgh. I assumed he'd inherit the title from his dad. It wasn't until I got older, and did research, I realized it had to merge with the crown with Charles, and then be recreated. Not everyone is a royalty fanatic, and makes honest mistakes.

But the article is a joke, a woman who seems extremely perterbed at being corrected on sites like this.
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  #838  
Old 03-27-2011, 04:22 AM
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The author in question was Kitty Kelley, who is said in the article to be "Washington-based" - isn't she British? I know she is author of a rather scandalous book about the Windsors which is not only sleazy in parts but contains a lot of made-up claims which are, of course, negative.

Not the person I would ask to be my "Expert".
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  #839  
Old 03-27-2011, 04:32 AM
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Originally Posted by melissaadrian View Post
Try reading the article...
I did read the article - many times in fact before making my post and having read the article about six times I am still not clear who made the comment at issue - the editor of Debrett's - who is quoted at times, Kitty Kelley - who is also quoted (and should know better given the supposed research she has done in writing her book on the Windsors) or the writer of the article itself, Monica Hesse.

Having read and re-read the passage I wasn't sure who said what, which is why I used the word 'IF'

Considering that some parts have "quotation marks" and others haven't I am not sure whether the parts out of quotes are just being there because they were too lazy to put them in again or whether those bits are supposed to be by Ms Hesse herself (the passage in question doesn't have any quotation marks - which could indicate Ms Hesse).
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  #840  
Old 03-27-2011, 04:34 AM
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Ketty Kelley is quoted at times but so is Mr Kidd, the editor of Debrett's.

Both of these two should have some idea - Kelley based on the research she allegedly did on her book on the Windsors (which simply repeated every scandal ever affecting the family) and Mr Kidd - whose very position would rest on it.
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