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  #761  
Old 08-15-2010, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by kbk View Post
...several Hanoverian princes, including Ernst Augustus, Duke of Brunswick, who was born as a Prince of Great Britain and Ireland, and his children, lost their British titles...
Both Prince Ernst August and Duke Carl Eduard of Saxe-Coburg & Gotha had fought on the German side so their British peerages (the Dukedoms of Cumberland & Teviotdale and of Albany) were suspended and British titles "withdrawn" in 1919 by Order-in-Council based on the Titles Deprivation Act of 1917 and remain so.

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I've read that by Royal Warrant of 17 June 1914, George V granted the eldest son and any children thereafter born to Prince Ernest Augustus of Hanover, then reigning Duke of Brunswick, the title of Prince (or Princess) of Great Britain and Ireland with the style Highness. That's okay, but, on what legal basis Ernst Augustus himself was a British prince? He was a male-line great-great-grandson of George III, so he could not be a British prince, as Queen Victoria limited the title only to a Sovereign's children and male-line grandchildren and great-grandchildren! So?
Whether Queen Victoria intended to apply the new rules retrospectively or not is moot as her writ did not extend to foreign Kingdoms (or ex-Kingdoms in Hanover's case).

The Duke of Brunswick was the son of King George V of Hanover who was born a Prince of Great Britain and Ireland and retained that title when he became King and moved over to Hanover. In the German custom such titles are not limited. Thus the current Prince of Hanover, Ernst August (V) bears the titles of Prince of Hanover, Prince of Great Britain and Ireland etc as do his two sons and other members of the Hanover dynasty. The Princely titles may have no legal validity in the UK but in any case they are not Princes of the United Kingdom but of GB and Ireland. So it's an historical relic, akin to "Prince of Prussia" or the Dutch Royal House being Princes of Orange, a German princely title more rightfully claimed by the Hohenzollerns. It's often forgotten that until 1917 British royals were also Princes and Princesses of Saxe-Coburg & Gotha, Dukes and Ducheses of Saxony.

Here's a question: under the same German principle of no limitation, Carl Eduard, the Duke of Saxe-Coburg who was formerly Charles Edward, British Prince and Royal Highness, could have theoretically retained his royal rank and title despite them being "removed" in 1917. He could have argued that on his accession to the Ducal throne in 1900 Saxe-Coburg became a Ducal House with Royal rank and his descendants were entitled to bear the additional title of Prince/Princess of Great Britain and Ireland with the style of Royal Highness.
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  #762  
Old 08-15-2010, 10:46 PM
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The Hanovers were allowed to retain their British styles as a courtesy, reflecting their line of descent from George II. They lost all royal rank and style in the UK automatically with the issuance of the 1917 Letters Patent, regardless of the Titles Deprivation Act.

Charles Eduard dropped his British royal title and style as he became a Sovereign in his own right of Saxe-Coburg.
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  #763  
Old 08-16-2010, 07:56 AM
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What you are saying is that the Hanovers, although deprived of the Prince of Great Britain and Ireland title in 1917, simply ignored the British ruling and carried on regardles.
In contrast, the ruling Duke of Saxe-Coburg voluntarily discarded his royal British birthright and demoted both himself and future descendants to the style of Highgness.
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  #764  
Old 08-16-2010, 01:31 PM
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....A wife would have to be groomed for such a job and even then they wouldn't be able to take on the many things on their own faster than the York girls would.
C'mon, anyone who has interest could do the job of a working princess. I do a similar job most days (without the title of course), but I have to write my own speeches...a princess need only read a pre-written speech. The hardest part of being a working princess is the physical grooming, because they must do their own exercising.

I just don't think it would be that difficult. If the aging royals can do it, why not the royal wives?
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  #765  
Old 08-16-2010, 01:43 PM
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What happens if a man who is a commoner marries a woman of Noble Birth such as Lady Gabriella Windsor
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  #766  
Old 08-16-2010, 03:17 PM
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What happens if a man who is a commoner marries a woman of Noble Birth such as Lady Gabriella Windsor
Nothing happens. Male consorts do not enjoy in any way their wives' titles and status. For example, when The Hon Angus Ogilvy married Princess Alexandra of Kent, although he became de facto member of the Royal Family, he retained his style as The Honourable. The Queen offered him an Earldom, but the Ogilvys refused. In an opposite way, when Baroness Marie Christine von Reibnitz married Prince Michael of Kent, she became styled as Princess Michael of Kent, in right of her husband.
Lady Gabriella is unmarried, but her cousin of the same rank as a daughter of a Royal male-line grandson, Lady Helen Taylor nee Windsor is married to Timothy Taylor, an art dealer. After eighteen years of marriage, he is still Mr Timothy Taylor, despite that de facto his position is much higher than before the marriage, as he is the husband of a Queen's cousin and the father of currently the 30th person in the line of succession to the British throne.

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Originally Posted by Warren View Post
Both Prince Ernst August and Duke Carl Eduard of Saxe-Coburg & Gotha had fought on the German side so their British peerages (the Dukedoms of Cumberland & Teviotdale and of Albany) were suspended and British titles "withdrawn" in 1919 by Order-in-Council based on the Titles Deprivation Act of 1917 and remain so.
You didn't understand me. Both Ernst August and Carl Eduard lost their peerage titles due to the said Act and King's Order-in-Council after the commitee's report. But I was talking about the Hanoverian Princes and one Princess' titles of Princes and Princess of Great Britain and Ireland! They lost their titles due to George V's earlier decisions. Let me quote the Wikipedia:
In 1917, George V issued a royal proclamation, altering the name of the Royal House from the House of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha to the House of Windsor[4]. Later that year, new letters patent altered the rights to the title prince and the style Royal Highness. These second letters patent, dated 30 November 1917, stated that "the children of any Sovereign of these Realms and the children of the sons of any such Sovereign (as per the above Letters Patent of 1864) and the eldest living son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales (a modification of the Letters Patent of 1898) shall have and at all times hold and enjoy the style, title or attribute of Royal Highness with their titular dignity of Prince or Princess prefixed to their respective Christian names or with their other titles of honour". Also decreed in these letters was that "grandchildren of the sons of any such Sovereign in the direct male line ... shall have and enjoy in all occasions the style and title enjoyed by the children of Dukes of these Our Realms" (i.e., Lord or Lady before their Christian name)[5]as collateral damage resulting from this decree, the Duke of Brunswick and his children were denied the title of prince. Both 1917 letters patent remain in force today, excepting a few amendments and creations noted.

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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
The Hanovers were allowed to retain their British styles as a courtesy, reflecting their line of descent from George II. They lost all royal rank and style in the UK automatically with the issuance of the 1917 Letters Patent, regardless of the Titles Deprivation Act.

Charles Eduard dropped his British royal title and style as he became a Sovereign in his own right of Saxe-Coburg.
That's true, except the first sentence. The Hanovers use the titles of Princes and Princesses of Great Britain and Ireland because of their own choice, as they think that as male-line descendants of a British monarch, they should be considered, regardless of any British regulations, as British princes. This directly apply to the tradition of the German and Central and Eastern European nobility, where noble titles are hereditary in male-line by all descendants, including the titles of reigning or mediatized houses, if the descendants come from dynastic marriages.
If I may, I would like to quote the Wiki again:
[...] in 1931, the former Duke of Brunswick, as head of the House of Hanover and the senior male-line descendant of George III, issued a decree stating that the members of the former Hanoverian royal family would continue to bear the title of Prince (or Princess) of Great Britain and Ireland with the style of Royal Highness. This decree had no legal effect in the United Kingdom, although no British sovereigns since have attempted to stop this practice on the part of the former Hanoverian royal family. The members of the House of Hanover continue to seek the British sovereign's approval when they marry, in accordance with the Royal Marriages Act 1772. In 1999, prior to the wedding of Ernest Augustus, Prince of Hanover (b. 1954) to Princess Caroline of Monaco, the couple received official consent from the reigning British monarch, Elizabeth II.
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  #767  
Old 08-16-2010, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Warren View Post
What you are saying is that the Hanovers, although deprived of the Prince of Great Britain and Ireland title in 1917, simply ignored the British ruling and carried on regardles.
In contrast, the ruling Duke of Saxe-Coburg voluntarily discarded his royal British birthright and demoted both himself and future descendants to the style of Highgness.
Exactly, yes. No one can stop someone from using a former title as a courtesy style, which all of the former German princely and ducal houses do, since legally their titles are not recognized in Germany, except as a surname. Their royal rank and style is simply a courtesy and is most certainly not recognized by The Sovereign in Britain.

If they were living in the UK, they could not use their former British peerages or titles without formally repetitioning the Crown for restoration, something that will never happen.
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  #768  
Old 08-16-2010, 09:14 PM
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Branchq...why do you think the Crown will never restore the British peerages of the German Princes/Dukes. Is it because of the bad feelings of the WWI and II, the fact that in fact the titles of Great Britian and Ireland simply no longer exists or in the words of George VI, to change one's mind would make no sense of the past (paraphrased). He used that to say that he wouldn't change his mind about granting Wallis the HRH.
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  #769  
Old 08-16-2010, 10:12 PM
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Well, first, I doubt the families themselves have any desire to reopen old wounds and memories of two World Wars that devastated London for the sake of once again being British Peers. Unless they were living in Britain full-time (I believe the Hanovers do have property in the UK), being Duke of Cumberland or Albany again makes little sense.

Second, the matter is one for the Privy Council and Parliament to consider and decide upon. Since restoration would involve seeking approval of the Government, it would put The Queen in a difficult position personally if their request was denied. I doubt The Hanovers or Coburgs wish to embarass her.
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  #770  
Old 08-29-2010, 03:04 PM
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Had George V not prohibited his family from using the German titles and had the Duke of Edinburgh not renounced his titles, the Queen would also be a Princess of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, Duchess in Saxony, Princess of Greece and Denmark. Imagine: by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, Ireland and the British Dominions beyond the Seas Queen, Defender of the Faith, Princess of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, Duchess in Saxony, Princess of Greece and Denmark, Duchess of Edinburgh, Countess of Merioneth, Baroness Greenwich, Duke of Lancaster, Lord of Mann, Duke of Normandy...

And her grandchildren would be Prince William of Wales, Greece and Denmark; Princess Beatrice of York, Greece and Denmark...

I find these could've-been scenarios interesting
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  #771  
Old 09-01-2010, 01:31 PM
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The Queen was never a Princess of Greece & Denmark. Philip naturalized to British citizenship as Lt. Philip Mountbatten, RN prior to the marriage. Even if he hadn't, as a British princess who was heiress presumptive, she would never have used Philip's foreign title as her style because she took precedence in her own right.
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  #772  
Old 09-03-2010, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
The Queen was never a Princess of Greece & Denmark. Philip naturalized to British citizenship as Lt. Philip Mountbatten, RN prior to the marriage. Even if he hadn't, as a British princess who was heiress presumptive, she would never have used Philip's foreign title as her style because she took precedence in her own right.
Technically speaking, HRH The Prince Philip was not required to become a naturalized British subject before his marriage.. he was already British, according to the laws of nationality at the time.

His mother Alice, Princess Andrew of Greece and Denmark, was born in England at Windsor Castle.. in the presence of her great grandmother, Queen Victoria.

His grandfather, Prince Louis of Battenberg, joined the Royal Navy on 3 October 1868, thereby becoming a naturalized British citizen. He married Princess Victoria of Hesse and By Rhine in 1884.. and she was also born at Windsor Castle in the presence of her grandmother, Queen Victoria.

According to nationality laws of the time, natural-born subjects were those who were born within the dominion of the crown, as is the case with both Princess Victoria and Princess Alice, Philip's mother and grandmother.

Naturalized subjects were those who gave their allegiance to the crown, as is the case of his grandfather, Prince Louis of Battenberg.

Philip, however, was born in Greece and this may have negated his British citizenship, since women who married foreign men automatically lost their British citizenship.. although I am not entirely sure that would apply to members of the royal family. Regardless of this, the Sophia Naturalization Act of 1705 was still in effect.

This act granted English nationality to the Electress Sophia of Hanover, allowing all her future descendants a claim to English nationality. In 1957, Prince Ernest Augustus of Hanover successfully claimed citizenship of the UK & Colonies under this Act.

Although the Act was repealed from 1 January 1949, by the British Nationality Act 1948, some descendants can still claim citizenship based on their parent's rights under the law as it existed prior to 1949. And this obviously did not affect Prince Philip, since he married the Queen in 1947.

In fact, Philip served in the Royal Navy during World War II, which could not have been possible had he not already been considered a British subject. His formal renunciation of his royal titles did not take place until 1946-1947, when he also took the surname Mountbatten. Prior to this date, Philip had no surname as a prince of the Greek royal house.

I believe that Parliament may have been ambiguous regarding his status, and with anti-German feelings after the war, the government thought it best for him to renounce his royal rights before he married Elizabeth... especially in light of his sisters' marriages to German princes with Nazi ties.

Had the situation been clearer at the time, it very well could have been a marriage between HH Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark and HRH The Princess Elizabeth.

I have no doubt that had he married Elizabeth as a Prince, then her title would have been HRH The Princess Elizabeth, Duchess of Edinburgh, Princess of Greece and Denmark.

Regardless of her precedence over Philip, the title "Princess of Greece and Denmark" would have been included in her style upon marriage, if Philip still held that title.. As heiress presumptive, she had no individual title of her own and would therefore assume the equivalent title of her husband.. which she did.. being styled Duchess of Edinburgh from 20 November 1947 to 6 February 1952.
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  #773  
Old 09-04-2010, 01:20 PM
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If she had married Philip and then lived in Greece as a member of the royal family, Elizabeth would have taken the title of "HRH Princess Philip of Greece". Even though Philip was already entitled to British citizenship (both through the Sophia Naturalization Act and through his service in war to the Royal Navy), he was required to seek permission of George II to relinquish his right of succession to the Greek throne (which was a condition of the marriage).

As a consequence, he automatically lost his Greek title and style when he became a British subject. The King then created him a Royal Highness and Duke in the Peerage in his own right in the UK.
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  #774  
Old 09-05-2010, 05:49 AM
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I have a question on the Sophia Naturalization Act: as far as I have understood, all the descendants of Electress Sophia born before 1948 and not Catholic (i.e. Prince Ernst August of Hannover) are/were British subjects by right, even before they claim(ed) the British citizenship (thus Ernst August was a British subject yet before 1957, when he claimed it).
My question is: can the descendants of Electress Sophia born after 1948 claim to be British subjects because one or both their parents are/were British subject(s) by virtue of the Sophia Naturalization Act (i.e. can Ernst August's son, born in 1954, claim to be a British subject because his father was British Subject too, even if not yet officially recognized)?

I hope to have clearly expressed.
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  #775  
Old 09-07-2010, 01:00 AM
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The British Nationality Act of 1948 provides that any direct Protestant desendant of The Electress Sophia born in 1948 or earlier may still claim British citizenship under the Sophia Naturalization Act. All others born after that year cannot as the 1948 Act replaced the provisions.

So, I would assume most, if not all, of the current generation of Hanovers are not automatically British subjects as they were born after 1948. There may be a few surviving descendants left that could claim it.

It should be noted any grant of British nationality does not change the fact they cannot hold the style of HRH Prince/Princess of the UK. The Letters Patent of 1917 and Titles Deprivation Act removed these rights from the Hanovers, even though Ernst-August decreed in 1957 that all members of the family would continue to carry the style of HRH and Prince/Princess of Great Britain and Ireland.
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  #776  
Old 09-07-2010, 04:12 AM
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Yes, the current Hannovers can't claim to be automatically British subjects by virtue of the Sophia Naturalization Act; but can they (in particular the eldest two, Marie and Ernst, born before that their father claimed his British nationality in 1957) claim to be British subjects because they're children of a British subject?
I guess that Ernst August's three younger children (Olga, Alexandra and Heinrich, all born after Ernst August was granted the British nationality) can easily claim to be, but my question is about those who aren't under the provisions of the Sophia Naturalization Act, but whose parent(s) were.

Another example may be Prince Georg Friedrich of Prussia: his father, born in 1944, could claim the British nationality, but he never did. But on the other side, he automatically was a British subject, as a descendant of Electress Sophia, even though he never claimed it. So can his son, born in 1976 and therefore not under the provisions of the Act, claim to be a British subject because he was the son of another British subject even if his father's British nationality was never officially acknowledged?
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  #777  
Old 09-09-2010, 06:15 PM
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The Sophia Naturalization Act of 1705 was repealed by the British Nationality Act of 1948.

However, any Protestant descendant of the Electress who had already been born when the repealing statute was enacted had already automatically acquired the status of a British subject, and so there are still people alive today who can claim British nationality under the Sophia Naturalisation Act.

That was the case of Ernst IV August, Prince of Hanover, who was only recognized by the Courts as a British subject in 1957, almost 10 years after the repeal.

The Courts recognized that, as he was born and was a Protestant when the Act was still in force, by that fact he had already acquired citizenship, so that the repeal of the statute did not affect his situation.

Under the 1948 Act, Citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies status was acquired by birth in the UK or a colony; naturalization or registration in the UK or a colony; legitimate descent from the father who was a citizen (no matter where the child was born).

Only the first generation acquired British nationality automatically. Further generations could only do so if they were born outside the Commonwealth and registered within 12 months of birth, or if their father was in Crown Service.

There have been subsequent acts since then, of course, but I doubt they are relevant to the question.

But since the precedent was set with the case of Ernst August of Hanover, I would assume that Prince Georg Friedrich of Prussia, born in 1976, could make a case if he were to pursue it. It is clear that Georg's father was eligible for British Nationality under the Sophia Act and may have already been considered a citizen even though he did not claim it. I hesitate to say whether leaving the right unclaimed would affect Prince Georg.

British nationality law is very complicated. But unless there is some amendment, repeal or statute to prevent the claim, I would say its still possible even for someone born in 1976 to claim British nationality under the Sophia Act.. as long as the father was eligible and born before 1948, when the Act was repealed.

As for Marie and Ernst, who were born before their father was awarded citizenship in 1957, I do believe they can also claim British nationality by virtue of their father's recognition, regardless of when they were born. Because the court determined that Ernst August had automatically acquired citizenship under the Sophia Act, his children would automatically be able to claim it, since their father was a citizen. That claim would also be allowed under the one generation rule.. although Ernst's grandchildren would probably be required to register within 12 months of birth, in order to keep the claim.

Hope this helps.
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Old 09-10-2010, 04:34 AM
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Thank you very much for your reply!
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  #779  
Old 09-10-2010, 01:09 PM
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Here is an adress posted by Mariazil in the " King Paul and Queen Frederika" thread. If you scroll down at the page you will see the photocopy of the document which shows King George of Greece's consent to allow Philip to rennounce his citizenship and serve in the British Army. I might be mistaken , but it seesms to me it was singed in 1944, very early and before the marriage. I guess the Greek royal family knew his intetnions from then šα뉃ήρθα„ε ƒ„ο Σ„ύξ
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Old 09-11-2010, 03:05 PM
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Though the document posted on the link does look like it could be 1944, I think it was signed in August 1946.

Philip proposed to Elizabeth in the summer of 1946, and King George II of the Hellenes was in exile at that time, residing in London - which also explains why the document is written in English rather than Greek.

Philip did not renounce his titles and allegiance to the Greek crown until after Elizabeth agreed to marry him. And King George II returned to Greece in September 1946. He died the following April.
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