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  #761  
Old 08-16-2010, 10:12 PM
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Well, first, I doubt the families themselves have any desire to reopen old wounds and memories of two World Wars that devastated London for the sake of once again being British Peers. Unless they were living in Britain full-time (I believe the Hanovers do have property in the UK), being Duke of Cumberland or Albany again makes little sense.

Second, the matter is one for the Privy Council and Parliament to consider and decide upon. Since restoration would involve seeking approval of the Government, it would put The Queen in a difficult position personally if their request was denied. I doubt The Hanovers or Coburgs wish to embarass her.
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  #762  
Old 08-29-2010, 03:04 PM
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Had George V not prohibited his family from using the German titles and had the Duke of Edinburgh not renounced his titles, the Queen would also be a Princess of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, Duchess in Saxony, Princess of Greece and Denmark. Imagine: by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, Ireland and the British Dominions beyond the Seas Queen, Defender of the Faith, Princess of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, Duchess in Saxony, Princess of Greece and Denmark, Duchess of Edinburgh, Countess of Merioneth, Baroness Greenwich, Duke of Lancaster, Lord of Mann, Duke of Normandy...

And her grandchildren would be Prince William of Wales, Greece and Denmark; Princess Beatrice of York, Greece and Denmark...

I find these could've-been scenarios interesting
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  #763  
Old 09-01-2010, 01:31 PM
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The Queen was never a Princess of Greece & Denmark. Philip naturalized to British citizenship as Lt. Philip Mountbatten, RN prior to the marriage. Even if he hadn't, as a British princess who was heiress presumptive, she would never have used Philip's foreign title as her style because she took precedence in her own right.
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  #764  
Old 09-03-2010, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
The Queen was never a Princess of Greece & Denmark. Philip naturalized to British citizenship as Lt. Philip Mountbatten, RN prior to the marriage. Even if he hadn't, as a British princess who was heiress presumptive, she would never have used Philip's foreign title as her style because she took precedence in her own right.
Technically speaking, HRH The Prince Philip was not required to become a naturalized British subject before his marriage.. he was already British, according to the laws of nationality at the time.

His mother Alice, Princess Andrew of Greece and Denmark, was born in England at Windsor Castle.. in the presence of her great grandmother, Queen Victoria.

His grandfather, Prince Louis of Battenberg, joined the Royal Navy on 3 October 1868, thereby becoming a naturalized British citizen. He married Princess Victoria of Hesse and By Rhine in 1884.. and she was also born at Windsor Castle in the presence of her grandmother, Queen Victoria.

According to nationality laws of the time, natural-born subjects were those who were born within the dominion of the crown, as is the case with both Princess Victoria and Princess Alice, Philip's mother and grandmother.

Naturalized subjects were those who gave their allegiance to the crown, as is the case of his grandfather, Prince Louis of Battenberg.

Philip, however, was born in Greece and this may have negated his British citizenship, since women who married foreign men automatically lost their British citizenship.. although I am not entirely sure that would apply to members of the royal family. Regardless of this, the Sophia Naturalization Act of 1705 was still in effect.

This act granted English nationality to the Electress Sophia of Hanover, allowing all her future descendants a claim to English nationality. In 1957, Prince Ernest Augustus of Hanover successfully claimed citizenship of the UK & Colonies under this Act.

Although the Act was repealed from 1 January 1949, by the British Nationality Act 1948, some descendants can still claim citizenship based on their parent's rights under the law as it existed prior to 1949. And this obviously did not affect Prince Philip, since he married the Queen in 1947.

In fact, Philip served in the Royal Navy during World War II, which could not have been possible had he not already been considered a British subject. His formal renunciation of his royal titles did not take place until 1946-1947, when he also took the surname Mountbatten. Prior to this date, Philip had no surname as a prince of the Greek royal house.

I believe that Parliament may have been ambiguous regarding his status, and with anti-German feelings after the war, the government thought it best for him to renounce his royal rights before he married Elizabeth... especially in light of his sisters' marriages to German princes with Nazi ties.

Had the situation been clearer at the time, it very well could have been a marriage between HH Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark and HRH The Princess Elizabeth.

I have no doubt that had he married Elizabeth as a Prince, then her title would have been HRH The Princess Elizabeth, Duchess of Edinburgh, Princess of Greece and Denmark.

Regardless of her precedence over Philip, the title "Princess of Greece and Denmark" would have been included in her style upon marriage, if Philip still held that title.. As heiress presumptive, she had no individual title of her own and would therefore assume the equivalent title of her husband.. which she did.. being styled Duchess of Edinburgh from 20 November 1947 to 6 February 1952.
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  #765  
Old 09-04-2010, 01:20 PM
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If she had married Philip and then lived in Greece as a member of the royal family, Elizabeth would have taken the title of "HRH Princess Philip of Greece". Even though Philip was already entitled to British citizenship (both through the Sophia Naturalization Act and through his service in war to the Royal Navy), he was required to seek permission of George II to relinquish his right of succession to the Greek throne (which was a condition of the marriage).

As a consequence, he automatically lost his Greek title and style when he became a British subject. The King then created him a Royal Highness and Duke in the Peerage in his own right in the UK.
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  #766  
Old 09-05-2010, 05:49 AM
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I have a question on the Sophia Naturalization Act: as far as I have understood, all the descendants of Electress Sophia born before 1948 and not Catholic (i.e. Prince Ernst August of Hannover) are/were British subjects by right, even before they claim(ed) the British citizenship (thus Ernst August was a British subject yet before 1957, when he claimed it).
My question is: can the descendants of Electress Sophia born after 1948 claim to be British subjects because one or both their parents are/were British subject(s) by virtue of the Sophia Naturalization Act (i.e. can Ernst August's son, born in 1954, claim to be a British subject because his father was British Subject too, even if not yet officially recognized)?

I hope to have clearly expressed.
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  #767  
Old 09-07-2010, 01:00 AM
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The British Nationality Act of 1948 provides that any direct Protestant desendant of The Electress Sophia born in 1948 or earlier may still claim British citizenship under the Sophia Naturalization Act. All others born after that year cannot as the 1948 Act replaced the provisions.

So, I would assume most, if not all, of the current generation of Hanovers are not automatically British subjects as they were born after 1948. There may be a few surviving descendants left that could claim it.

It should be noted any grant of British nationality does not change the fact they cannot hold the style of HRH Prince/Princess of the UK. The Letters Patent of 1917 and Titles Deprivation Act removed these rights from the Hanovers, even though Ernst-August decreed in 1957 that all members of the family would continue to carry the style of HRH and Prince/Princess of Great Britain and Ireland.
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  #768  
Old 09-07-2010, 04:12 AM
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Yes, the current Hannovers can't claim to be automatically British subjects by virtue of the Sophia Naturalization Act; but can they (in particular the eldest two, Marie and Ernst, born before that their father claimed his British nationality in 1957) claim to be British subjects because they're children of a British subject?
I guess that Ernst August's three younger children (Olga, Alexandra and Heinrich, all born after Ernst August was granted the British nationality) can easily claim to be, but my question is about those who aren't under the provisions of the Sophia Naturalization Act, but whose parent(s) were.

Another example may be Prince Georg Friedrich of Prussia: his father, born in 1944, could claim the British nationality, but he never did. But on the other side, he automatically was a British subject, as a descendant of Electress Sophia, even though he never claimed it. So can his son, born in 1976 and therefore not under the provisions of the Act, claim to be a British subject because he was the son of another British subject even if his father's British nationality was never officially acknowledged?
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  #769  
Old 09-09-2010, 06:15 PM
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The Sophia Naturalization Act of 1705 was repealed by the British Nationality Act of 1948.

However, any Protestant descendant of the Electress who had already been born when the repealing statute was enacted had already automatically acquired the status of a British subject, and so there are still people alive today who can claim British nationality under the Sophia Naturalisation Act.

That was the case of Ernst IV August, Prince of Hanover, who was only recognized by the Courts as a British subject in 1957, almost 10 years after the repeal.

The Courts recognized that, as he was born and was a Protestant when the Act was still in force, by that fact he had already acquired citizenship, so that the repeal of the statute did not affect his situation.

Under the 1948 Act, Citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies status was acquired by birth in the UK or a colony; naturalization or registration in the UK or a colony; legitimate descent from the father who was a citizen (no matter where the child was born).

Only the first generation acquired British nationality automatically. Further generations could only do so if they were born outside the Commonwealth and registered within 12 months of birth, or if their father was in Crown Service.

There have been subsequent acts since then, of course, but I doubt they are relevant to the question.

But since the precedent was set with the case of Ernst August of Hanover, I would assume that Prince Georg Friedrich of Prussia, born in 1976, could make a case if he were to pursue it. It is clear that Georg's father was eligible for British Nationality under the Sophia Act and may have already been considered a citizen even though he did not claim it. I hesitate to say whether leaving the right unclaimed would affect Prince Georg.

British nationality law is very complicated. But unless there is some amendment, repeal or statute to prevent the claim, I would say its still possible even for someone born in 1976 to claim British nationality under the Sophia Act.. as long as the father was eligible and born before 1948, when the Act was repealed.

As for Marie and Ernst, who were born before their father was awarded citizenship in 1957, I do believe they can also claim British nationality by virtue of their father's recognition, regardless of when they were born. Because the court determined that Ernst August had automatically acquired citizenship under the Sophia Act, his children would automatically be able to claim it, since their father was a citizen. That claim would also be allowed under the one generation rule.. although Ernst's grandchildren would probably be required to register within 12 months of birth, in order to keep the claim.

Hope this helps.
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  #770  
Old 09-10-2010, 04:34 AM
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Thank you very much for your reply!
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  #771  
Old 09-10-2010, 01:09 PM
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Here is an adress posted by Mariazil in the " King Paul and Queen Frederika" thread. If you scroll down at the page you will see the photocopy of the document which shows King George of Greece's consent to allow Philip to rennounce his citizenship and serve in the British Army. I might be mistaken , but it seesms to me it was singed in 1944, very early and before the marriage. I guess the Greek royal family knew his intetnions from then šα뉃ήρθα„ε ƒ„ο Σ„ύξ
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  #772  
Old 09-11-2010, 03:05 PM
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Though the document posted on the link does look like it could be 1944, I think it was signed in August 1946.

Philip proposed to Elizabeth in the summer of 1946, and King George II of the Hellenes was in exile at that time, residing in London - which also explains why the document is written in English rather than Greek.

Philip did not renounce his titles and allegiance to the Greek crown until after Elizabeth agreed to marry him. And King George II returned to Greece in September 1946. He died the following April.
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  #773  
Old 09-12-2010, 06:05 AM
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Posts discussing Bourbon and Orlans royal titles have been moved to the Questions About Titles thread in the Other Things Royal forum.
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  #774  
Old 12-04-2010, 11:03 PM
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This may seem like a stupid question but when Charles becomes King (or even when William does) could he take away the HRH of his bro and sisters and neices and nephew? Or would it automatically drop? Could William take HRH from Harry when he King?
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  #775  
Old 12-04-2010, 11:45 PM
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This may seem like a stupid question but when Charles becomes King (or even when William does) could he take away the HRH of his bro and sisters and neices and nephew? Or would it automatically drop? Could William take HRH from Harry when he King?

Why would he want to take the HRH away?

It isn't automatic at all - the cousins of the Queen are HRH - HRH Prince Richard, The Duke of Gloucester, HRH Prince Edward The Duke of Kent, HRH Prince Michael of Kent, HRH Princess Alexandra. It hasn't happened in the past that those that close have lost the HRH.

Beatrice and Eugenie will be in the same relationship to William as these people - first cousins.

HRH is governed by the 1917 LPs and is for life (unless the holder chooses not to use it).

So who gets HRH?

1. The children of the monarch - Charles, Anne, Andrew and Edward.

2. Male line grandchildren of a monarch - William and Harry of Wales (children of HRH The Prince Charles), Beatrice and Eugenie of York (children of HRH The Prince Andrew), Louise and James of Wessex (children of HRH The Prince Edward), Richard of Gloucester (child of HRH The Prince Henry - 3rd son of George V), Edward, Michael and Alexandra of Kent (children of HRH The Prince George - 4th son of George V).

3. The eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales - so William's eldest son but no other children of either William's or Harry's in the present reign but all once the Queen dies. That assumes that the Queen doesn't issue special LPs to grant the HRH to all their children, which is possible.

When Charles becomes King William's other children and all of Harry's children will gain the HRH but no one will lose it. They may choose to give it up but to lose it Charles will have to issue new LPs to restrict further the HRH.

How much further do you restrict - to simply the children of the monarch so that Harry's children don't get it and William's have to wait until William is King - possibly but I don't think that will happen.

If he was to take HRH from Beatrice and Eugenie and his siblings then to be fair he would have to deny it to Harry's children and Harry as well - he would be restricting it to the heir and the heir's heir. The Queen's own sibling, Margaret kept the HRH Princess all her life (which she originally got at birth, like her older sister, as they were male-line grandchildren of a monarch. Margaret couldn't pass on the HRH to her children as she was a female, so, like Peter and Zara, David Linley and Sarah Chatto are female line grandchildren of a monarch but don't have HRH for that very reason - females can't pass it on unless they are the monarch and males for one generation, unless, again they are the monarch.
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  #776  
Old 12-05-2010, 12:10 AM
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Iluvbertie's right.

And since none of the daughters and granddaughters can pass the HRH to their children, it ends with them.. meaning: HRH The Princess Royal, HRH Princess Beatrice of York, HRH Princess Eugenie of York, The Lady Louise Windsor, and HRH Princess Alexandra.

It will also end with the male-line grandchildren of George V - HRH Prince Richard, Duke of Gloucester, and HRH Prince Michael of Kent. And with the male-line grandson of Elizabeth II - James, Viscount Severn. Their children are not eligible for the HRH because they would be great-grandchildren of a sovereign.

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  #777  
Old 12-05-2010, 01:09 AM
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This may seem like a stupid question but when Charles becomes King (or even when William does) could he take away the HRH of his bro and sisters and neices and nephew? Or would it automatically drop? Could William take HRH from Harry when he King?
The rank, style and attribute of HRH Prince/Princess of the UK is entirely within the will of The Sovereign and can be removed or granted at any time. At present, the 1917 Letters Patent of George V governs the use of this style, but successive monarchs have issued letters patent modifying these guidelines in specific situations.

In 1937, George VI issued letters patent stating The Duke of Windsor would continue to be entitled to the style and attribute of HRH, despite the Abdication, but such attribute could not be shared by his wife and children.

In 1996, Elizabeth II issued letters patent stating a former wife of a Prince of the UK would be not entitled to the style and attribute of HRH upon divorce.

It is entirely possible new letters patent will be issued by Charles or William when they become King limiting the style and attribute of HRH. While it is expected anyone currently holding it would retain it for life, it's not automatic this will be so.
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  #778  
Old 12-05-2010, 08:36 PM
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IId love if the Children of Prince Michael were made Prince and Princess
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  #779  
Old 12-05-2010, 08:51 PM
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IId love if the Children of Prince Michael were made Prince and Princess

To make them a Prince or Princess then a lot more people would have to get that as the children of Prince Michael are male-line great-grandchildren - so the children of the Duke of Gloucester and Duke of Kent would also have to get it.

George V deliberately wanted to restrict it and there is no reason to add any more.

Any further changes would be to further restrict rather than widen I think - particularly when you consider that Louise and James aren't using the title.

I can see Charles limiting it to the children of the monarch and only the children of the heir to the throne (he is reported as wanted Beatrice and Eugenie to give it up and the only way that would be fair is it he then also denied it to his own second son's children).
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  #780  
Old 12-06-2010, 12:15 AM
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The rank, style and attribute of HRH Prince/Princess of the UK is entirely within the will of The Sovereign...
Thank you!
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie
Why would he want to take the HRH away? It isn't automatic at all...It hasn't happened in the past that those that close have lost the HRH.
Thank you - I'm not saying anyone would take it away just asking if they could- thanks!
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