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  #741  
Old 07-30-2010, 05:51 PM
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Thanks Zonk...had not seen that category.
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  #742  
Old 07-30-2010, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by KittyAtlanta View Post
"whlist married to her former husband andrew parker- bowles, whom is a catholic, did she convert over to his faith, and if so, did she (on her divorce) covert back to the church of england ? ."

Camilla was always a Catholic. That is why the union with Prince Charles didn't take place 40 years ago. HM would not grant permission.

"Technically, the Line of the Succession is discriminative only towards the Catholics."

That needs to be --- Technically, the Line of Succession is discriminative only towards ROMAN Catholics.
Camilla has never been Catholic. When she married Andrew Parker-Bowles, they were married in the Church of England. Andrew PB was/is a Roman Catholic and both of their children, Tom and Laura, were raised in the Catholic faith.

From Wiki: The couple had two children: Tom, born in the year after the marriage, who is a godson of Prince Charles, and Laura, born in 1978; both Parker Bowles children were raised in their father's Roman Catholic faith.

Just made me realize an interesting tidbit. If Tom Parker-Bowles was baptized in the Catholic faith and the PoW is his godfather, then that should the "need" arise, Charles had promised to continue to assure that Tom was raised Catholic.
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  #743  
Old 07-31-2010, 04:24 PM
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It's doubtful that Eugenie or Beatrice would lose their royal rank as HRH. Even if Charles decides to issue letters patent replacing the current guidelines from 1917, anyone currently holding the rank and style of HRH Prince/Princess of the UK would keep it for their lifetime.

Being female, Eugenie and Beatrice are likely to marry and take their husband's name eventually. They cannot pass on their royal styles anyway, so that would take care of that. Most of the remaining HRHs are headed towards the grave or old age. So, the number will dwindle naturally from attrition.

The real question is whether Harry's children will be HRH Prince/Princess of the UK. That seems questionable, given that Edward and Sophie's children are not using their royal styles, which signals change is eventually coming after The Queen dies.
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  #744  
Old 08-01-2010, 03:10 AM
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Yes, but the reason why Edward's children are not using their titles is because Edward and Sophie specifically asked the Queen for permission for their children to do that.
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  #745  
Old 08-01-2010, 03:54 AM
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Originally Posted by cmkrcwi View Post
Yes, but the reason why Edward's children are not using their titles is because Edward and Sophie specifically asked the Queen for permission for their children to do that.

The next question though is why would they do that and there are a number of answers to that question:

1. That they know that there is an intention to reduce those eligible to by HRH Prince/Princesses to just those of the eldest son/child and so they made a pre-emptive decision

2. They know that with William, Harry, Beatrice and Eugenie their children won't be needed to do royal duties so why burden them with the titles etc - afterall Peter and Zara have all the benefits and none of the burdens namely wealth and position but no duties to perform.

3. They won't their kids to have a private life and upbringing that using the HRH would mean that they don't have.

4. Who knows but I am sure that there could be other reasons for asking for that and that the Queen approved that decision.
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  #746  
Old 08-01-2010, 04:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
4. Who knows but I am sure that there could be other reasons for asking for that and that the Queen approved that decision.
OK.. this is an odd idea and its very late here and my brain is doing odd things.

Picture this... Charles becomes King and declares a republic. He'd still be "King" but like his father's people.. deposed. Then he can still go about with opinions on how things should be done environmentally.

Weird thought eh?
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  #747  
Old 08-01-2010, 08:19 AM
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That is never going to happen.

Charles has waited his entire life to be King and I dont' believe he can declare Britian a Republic, only Parliament can do that.
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  #748  
Old 08-01-2010, 08:26 AM
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He wouldn't do that, not after everything his mother has taught him. There would have to be a Referendum on the issue, if the people called for it.
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  #749  
Old 08-01-2010, 09:59 AM
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Lumutqueen: He wouldn't do that, not after everything his mother has taught him. There would have to be a Referendum on the issue, if the people called for it.

Zonk: Charles has waited his entire life to be King and I dont' believe he can declare Britian a Republic, only Parliament can do that.[

I said it was odd.. just wanted to keep y'all on your toes.

But thinking seriously.. I read the report in the PoW forum AFTER I'd posted this silly thing. Where Charles believes he was born to Save The World (good gods.. please save me from bad journalism). This man doesn't look druish.. I know I posted it as a joke (you'd have to know Mel Brooks movies) He is so much of an activist to help and preserve our earth... This man as a PoW has done more than any other royal has to try to make an impact on us... to drive home that its up to us to make a difference.

What happens if/when he does become king and he can no longer have an opinion about the environment and what the government is doing to aid/hinder things? Will he just potter around the gardens at BP, Windsor and Highgrove and not say a word?

I did forget to mention something. Charles is passionate about what he believes. No one call call him a cold fish on the issue.
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  #750  
Old 08-01-2010, 11:04 AM
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I posted that Daily Mail article, and I didn't really read it because I have no interest in Charles' workings for the environment.
However I do know that he has does a lot to convince the world leaders to work towards finding a solution, and even before GW was around, he was doing other things.
There is no if about it, when he becomes King Charles won't be allowed to shout out his opinion like he does nowadays, he will have to keep it to himself, else he will be accused of having an interest in the politics of the country. He can talk in private to whoever the PM is at the time, and express his thoughts on the matter and "advise" about it. That's all. He might potter around Highgrove if he still can when he becomes King, but he will have to just be King.
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  #751  
Old 08-02-2010, 03:32 AM
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I know this is probably in the wrong thread - but wouldn't he be bound to sign himself out of existance if a Republic Bill ever passed the Parliament or a referendum to that effct was successful?
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  #752  
Old 08-15-2010, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
It's doubtful that Eugenie or Beatrice would lose their royal rank as HRH. Even if Charles decides to issue letters patent replacing the current guidelines from 1917, anyone currently holding the rank and style of HRH Prince/Princess of the UK would keep it for their lifetime.
Why do you think if Charles decides to limit the Princely status to his children and further descendants only, Beatrice and Eugenie could not lose their titles? When George V changed the rules in 1917, several Hanoverian princes, including Ernst Augustus, Duke of Brunswick, who was born as a Prince of Great Britain and Ireland, and his children, lost their British titles...

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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
The real question is whether Harry's children will be HRH Prince/Princess of the UK. That seems questionable, given that Edward and Sophie's children are not using their royal styles, which signals change is eventually coming after The Queen dies.
Today, as Harry is a Sovereign's male-line grandson and is not the Prince of Wales's first son, his children would not be titled Princes and styled Royal Highnesses by birth. They would be known as Lords and Ladies, just like the children of Prince Michael of Kent, also a male-line grandson of a Sovereign. I do not think that the Queen could grant them any higher titles and style in this situation, when her grandchildren from The Prince Edward do not enjoy Royal titles and style.

I have an additional question about British royal titles..I've read that by Royal Warrant of 17 June 1914, George V granted the eldest son and any children thereafter born to Prince Ernest Augustus of Hanover, then reigning Duke of Brunswick, the title of Prince (or Princess) of Great Britain and Ireland with the style Highness. That's okay, but, on what legal basis Ernst Augustus himself was a British prince? He was a male-line great-great-grandson of George III, so he could not be a British prince, as Queen Victoria limited the title only to a Sovereign's children and male-line grandchildren and great-grandchildren!

So?
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  #753  
Old 08-15-2010, 05:12 PM
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...several Hanoverian princes, including Ernst Augustus, Duke of Brunswick, who was born as a Prince of Great Britain and Ireland, and his children, lost their British titles...
Both Prince Ernst August and Duke Carl Eduard of Saxe-Coburg & Gotha had fought on the German side so their British peerages (the Dukedoms of Cumberland & Teviotdale and of Albany) were suspended and British titles "withdrawn" in 1919 by Order-in-Council based on the Titles Deprivation Act of 1917 and remain so.

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I've read that by Royal Warrant of 17 June 1914, George V granted the eldest son and any children thereafter born to Prince Ernest Augustus of Hanover, then reigning Duke of Brunswick, the title of Prince (or Princess) of Great Britain and Ireland with the style Highness. That's okay, but, on what legal basis Ernst Augustus himself was a British prince? He was a male-line great-great-grandson of George III, so he could not be a British prince, as Queen Victoria limited the title only to a Sovereign's children and male-line grandchildren and great-grandchildren! So?
Whether Queen Victoria intended to apply the new rules retrospectively or not is moot as her writ did not extend to foreign Kingdoms (or ex-Kingdoms in Hanover's case).

The Duke of Brunswick was the son of King George V of Hanover who was born a Prince of Great Britain and Ireland and retained that title when he became King and moved over to Hanover. In the German custom such titles are not limited. Thus the current Prince of Hanover, Ernst August (V) bears the titles of Prince of Hanover, Prince of Great Britain and Ireland etc as do his two sons and other members of the Hanover dynasty. The Princely titles may have no legal validity in the UK but in any case they are not Princes of the United Kingdom but of GB and Ireland. So it's an historical relic, akin to "Prince of Prussia" or the Dutch Royal House being Princes of Orange, a German princely title more rightfully claimed by the Hohenzollerns. It's often forgotten that until 1917 British royals were also Princes and Princesses of Saxe-Coburg & Gotha, Dukes and Ducheses of Saxony.

Here's a question: under the same German principle of no limitation, Carl Eduard, the Duke of Saxe-Coburg who was formerly Charles Edward, British Prince and Royal Highness, could have theoretically retained his royal rank and title despite them being "removed" in 1917. He could have argued that on his accession to the Ducal throne in 1900 Saxe-Coburg became a Ducal House with Royal rank and his descendants were entitled to bear the additional title of Prince/Princess of Great Britain and Ireland with the style of Royal Highness.
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  #754  
Old 08-15-2010, 10:46 PM
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The Hanovers were allowed to retain their British styles as a courtesy, reflecting their line of descent from George II. They lost all royal rank and style in the UK automatically with the issuance of the 1917 Letters Patent, regardless of the Titles Deprivation Act.

Charles Eduard dropped his British royal title and style as he became a Sovereign in his own right of Saxe-Coburg.
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  #755  
Old 08-16-2010, 07:56 AM
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What you are saying is that the Hanovers, although deprived of the Prince of Great Britain and Ireland title in 1917, simply ignored the British ruling and carried on regardles.
In contrast, the ruling Duke of Saxe-Coburg voluntarily discarded his royal British birthright and demoted both himself and future descendants to the style of Highgness.
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  #756  
Old 08-16-2010, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by sliver_bic View Post
....A wife would have to be groomed for such a job and even then they wouldn't be able to take on the many things on their own faster than the York girls would.
C'mon, anyone who has interest could do the job of a working princess. I do a similar job most days (without the title of course), but I have to write my own speeches...a princess need only read a pre-written speech. The hardest part of being a working princess is the physical grooming, because they must do their own exercising.

I just don't think it would be that difficult. If the aging royals can do it, why not the royal wives?
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  #757  
Old 08-16-2010, 01:43 PM
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What happens if a man who is a commoner marries a woman of Noble Birth such as Lady Gabriella Windsor
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  #758  
Old 08-16-2010, 03:17 PM
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What happens if a man who is a commoner marries a woman of Noble Birth such as Lady Gabriella Windsor
Nothing happens. Male consorts do not enjoy in any way their wives' titles and status. For example, when The Hon Angus Ogilvy married Princess Alexandra of Kent, although he became de facto member of the Royal Family, he retained his style as The Honourable. The Queen offered him an Earldom, but the Ogilvys refused. In an opposite way, when Baroness Marie Christine von Reibnitz married Prince Michael of Kent, she became styled as Princess Michael of Kent, in right of her husband.
Lady Gabriella is unmarried, but her cousin of the same rank as a daughter of a Royal male-line grandson, Lady Helen Taylor nee Windsor is married to Timothy Taylor, an art dealer. After eighteen years of marriage, he is still Mr Timothy Taylor, despite that de facto his position is much higher than before the marriage, as he is the husband of a Queen's cousin and the father of currently the 30th person in the line of succession to the British throne.

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Both Prince Ernst August and Duke Carl Eduard of Saxe-Coburg & Gotha had fought on the German side so their British peerages (the Dukedoms of Cumberland & Teviotdale and of Albany) were suspended and British titles "withdrawn" in 1919 by Order-in-Council based on the Titles Deprivation Act of 1917 and remain so.
You didn't understand me. Both Ernst August and Carl Eduard lost their peerage titles due to the said Act and King's Order-in-Council after the commitee's report. But I was talking about the Hanoverian Princes and one Princess' titles of Princes and Princess of Great Britain and Ireland! They lost their titles due to George V's earlier decisions. Let me quote the Wikipedia:
In 1917, George V issued a royal proclamation, altering the name of the Royal House from the House of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha to the House of Windsor[4]. Later that year, new letters patent altered the rights to the title prince and the style Royal Highness. These second letters patent, dated 30 November 1917, stated that "the children of any Sovereign of these Realms and the children of the sons of any such Sovereign (as per the above Letters Patent of 1864) and the eldest living son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales (a modification of the Letters Patent of 1898) shall have and at all times hold and enjoy the style, title or attribute of Royal Highness with their titular dignity of Prince or Princess prefixed to their respective Christian names or with their other titles of honour". Also decreed in these letters was that "grandchildren of the sons of any such Sovereign in the direct male line ... shall have and enjoy in all occasions the style and title enjoyed by the children of Dukes of these Our Realms" (i.e., Lord or Lady before their Christian name)[5]—as collateral damage resulting from this decree, the Duke of Brunswick and his children were denied the title of prince. Both 1917 letters patent remain in force today, excepting a few amendments and creations noted.

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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
The Hanovers were allowed to retain their British styles as a courtesy, reflecting their line of descent from George II. They lost all royal rank and style in the UK automatically with the issuance of the 1917 Letters Patent, regardless of the Titles Deprivation Act.

Charles Eduard dropped his British royal title and style as he became a Sovereign in his own right of Saxe-Coburg.
That's true, except the first sentence. The Hanovers use the titles of Princes and Princesses of Great Britain and Ireland because of their own choice, as they think that as male-line descendants of a British monarch, they should be considered, regardless of any British regulations, as British princes. This directly apply to the tradition of the German and Central and Eastern European nobility, where noble titles are hereditary in male-line by all descendants, including the titles of reigning or mediatized houses, if the descendants come from dynastic marriages.
If I may, I would like to quote the Wiki again:
[...] in 1931, the former Duke of Brunswick, as head of the House of Hanover and the senior male-line descendant of George III, issued a decree stating that the members of the former Hanoverian royal family would continue to bear the title of Prince (or Princess) of Great Britain and Ireland with the style of Royal Highness. This decree had no legal effect in the United Kingdom, although no British sovereigns since have attempted to stop this practice on the part of the former Hanoverian royal family. The members of the House of Hanover continue to seek the British sovereign's approval when they marry, in accordance with the Royal Marriages Act 1772. In 1999, prior to the wedding of Ernest Augustus, Prince of Hanover (b. 1954) to Princess Caroline of Monaco, the couple received official consent from the reigning British monarch, Elizabeth II.
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  #759  
Old 08-16-2010, 08:27 PM
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What you are saying is that the Hanovers, although deprived of the Prince of Great Britain and Ireland title in 1917, simply ignored the British ruling and carried on regardles.
In contrast, the ruling Duke of Saxe-Coburg voluntarily discarded his royal British birthright and demoted both himself and future descendants to the style of Highgness.
Exactly, yes. No one can stop someone from using a former title as a courtesy style, which all of the former German princely and ducal houses do, since legally their titles are not recognized in Germany, except as a surname. Their royal rank and style is simply a courtesy and is most certainly not recognized by The Sovereign in Britain.

If they were living in the UK, they could not use their former British peerages or titles without formally repetitioning the Crown for restoration, something that will never happen.
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Old 08-16-2010, 09:14 PM
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Branchq...why do you think the Crown will never restore the British peerages of the German Princes/Dukes. Is it because of the bad feelings of the WWI and II, the fact that in fact the titles of Great Britian and Ireland simply no longer exists or in the words of George VI, to change one's mind would make no sense of the past (paraphrased). He used that to say that he wouldn't change his mind about granting Wallis the HRH.
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