Questions about British Styles and Titles

[branchg]

Yes, but Helen of Romania had already become Queen when Carol managed to return and replace Michael as King. Although he refused to allow her the title of Queen, she was "HM Helen of Romania", a style she retained with divorce and in exile.

When Michael became King again, he declared his mother was "HM The Queen Mother of Romania".

[jonnydep]

hi....
sorry to my understanding helen was never queen, she and carol had divorced in 1928. he was proclaimed king in 1930, abdicated the throne in 1940 in the favor of his son michael who was king from 1927 (due to the death of his grandfather king ferdinand) until 1930 !.
cheers...

[Lumutqueen]

Helen received the designation Queen Mother of Romania (Regina mamă, Elena). When Michael ascended.

When married she was Crown Princess of Romania, but when Carol ascended the throne Helen was told by the Prime Minister Iuliu Maniu that as a result of the abrogation of the act of 4 January 1926, Carol had legitimately succeeded as king in July 1927, from which point she had automatically ranked as queen.

The government presented a decree to Carol for his signature officially confirming Helen as Her Majesty The Queen of Romania. Carol, however, crossed this out and declared Helen to be Her Majesty Helen (i.e. with the style Majesty, but not the title Queen).

She was never a Queen.

[silviaelena]

Only for curiosity, the day that dies the prince Andrew, that will happen with him title?, will Sarah continue using title Duchess of York ?

[Iluvbertie]

Originally Posted by silviaelena

Only for curiosity, the day that dies the prince Andrew, that will happen with him title?, will Sarah continue using title Duchess of York ?

The day that Prince Andrew dies, assuming that he hasn't remarried and had a son, the Duke of York title will revert to the Crown.

Sarah isn't using the title Duchess of York now. She is using the words Duchess of York more as a surname but she isn't The Duchess of York. She will still be able to use that designation until she herself dies, or she remarries someone other than Andrew. She will be able to style herself Sarah, Duchess of York even after Andrew dies.

One one to look at it is if she had been married to John Smith and still called herself Sarah Smith after getting divorced and John Smith died she could still call herself Sarah Smith so after Andrew died she would still be entitled to call herself Sarah, Duchess of York (even if Andrew has remarried and had a son who became Duke of York after his father).

[Lady Meg]

Ok - question - here is a title that became extinct. It would be the Earl of Sefton. I read on a page that

When the last Earl died in 1972, a worldwide search was made for an heir to the title but without success.

- if someone who was a direct descendant of the family spoke up what would happen, and what if that person was a female? It would obviously have to be checked out. Which is where I have a question - The parents of Lady Anne Gerrard who was wife to Governor of Maryland, Thomas Greene. Does anyone have any idea who they were? Was it Sir Thomas Lord Baron of Bryne Gerrard/Gerard and Lady Frances Molyneux? If so was Lady Frances Molyneux's parents Sir Richard, 1st Baronet of Sefton Molyneux and Lady Frances of Sefton Gerrard? Anyone know anything?

[Iluvbertie]

The standard for most titles is heirs male of the body so unless the person who spoke up was able to prove male descent they have no claim - a claim through a female won't count.

[Lady Meg]

If women can inherit the throne - they really need to change this no female rule.
Boohoo!

[Iluvbertie]

Originally Posted by Lady Meg

If women can inherit the throne - they really need to change this no female rule.
Boohoo!

I agree. I would love to see other titles at least to the same standards as the monarchy - if no sons then the daughters can inherit rather than the case at the moment where if there are only daughters the title becomes extinct.

Personally I hope when they pass legislation to go to gender blind succession to the monarchy they do the same for all titles - gender blind (and even possible back date it to allow for a living eldest daughter of a title that had gone extinct to take on that title e.g. my distant family's title of Viscount Leverhulme went extinct when the 3rd Viscount died leaving only daughters but I would love to see the eldest be able to claim the title if they changed the legislation - of course I would specify only if the eldest daughter or maybe one further generation only still living).

[Lady Meg]

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie

I agree. I would love to see other titles at least to the same standards as the monarchy - if no sons then the daughters can inherit rather than the case at the moment where if there are only daughters the title becomes extinct.

Personally I hope when they pass legislation to go to gender blind succession to the monarchy they do the same for all titles - gender blind (and even possible back date it to allow for a living eldest daughter of a title that had gone extinct to take on that title e.g. my distant family's title of Viscount Leverhulme went extinct when the 3rd Viscount died leaving only daughters but I would love to see the eldest be able to claim the title if they changed the legislation - of course I would specify only if the eldest daughter or maybe one further generation only still living).

Exactly - it's way overdue - yes, there are some titles I have been searching for and I'm pretty sure no one in my immediate family would be interested except for me.

[snowflower]

I now this is OT but I can't find another to post my question: Camilla chose to be known as the Duchess of Cornwall upon her marriage to Charles. In case Charles dies before ascending to the throne, what will be Camilla's title? I mean, if William becomes King and he has a son, he will be the Duke of Cornwall right? So he will be the Duke of Cornwall and Camilla( his step grandmother) the Duchess of Cornwall? Because that will be kind of weird I think.

[Iluvbertie]

Originally Posted by snowflower

I now this is OT but I can't find another to post my question: Camilla chose to be known as the Duchess of Cornwall upon her marriage to Charles. In case Charles dies before ascending to the throne, what will be Camilla's title? I mean, if William becomes King and he has a son, he will be the Duke of Cornwall right? So he will be the Duke of Cornwall and Camilla( his step grandmother) the Duchess of Cornwall? Because that will be kind of weird I think.

If Charles dies before ascending the throne Camilla will remain HRH Camilla, Princess of Wales, Duchess of Cornwall etc and William's son will also be The Duke of Cornwall.

This happens all the time - where the wife of the desceased Duke is still known by the Duchess of xxxx while their is a new Duke and Duchess using the same title, but the new Duchess has the The with a capital 'T' whereas the mother Duchess technically should be known as the Dowager Duchess of xxxx but often the word Dowager is left off.

If Andrew remarries then his wife would be known as The Duchess of York but Sarah would still be able to be Sarah, Duchess of York - her divorced style.

[MARG]

In point of fact she would actually be the Dowager Duchess of Cornwall! Just as Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother was still Queen.

[Mermaid1962]

Or perhaps Camilla Duchess of Cornwall. Or perhaps, in the case of the last Duchess of Gloucester, the current monarch (William) will give her the title Princess. So Princess Camilla Duchess of Cornwall. It seems that so many things are open to change now.

Originally Posted by MARG

In point of fact she would actually be the Dowager Duchess of Cornwall! Just as Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother was still Queen.

[Lumutqueen]

Originally Posted by Mermaid1962

Or perhaps Camilla Duchess of Cornwall. Or perhaps, in the case of the last Duchess of Gloucester, the current monarch (William) will give her the title Princess. So Princess Camilla Duchess of Cornwall.

Doesn't she have the write to the title Princess already?

[Osipi]

Originally Posted by lumutqueen

Doesn't she have the write to the title Princess already?

Yes. She is The Princess of Wales but is styled as The Duchess of Cornwall out of respect for the Late Diana, Princess of Wales. I think in such a case like this she most likely would prefer to continue being known as Duchess of Cornwall as that is what she had been styled as for the years she was married to Charles.

[Sister Morphine]

Originally Posted by lumutqueen

Doesn't she have the write to the title Princess already?

She is legally-speaking, the Princess of Wales, Duchess of Cornwall and a couple other titles thrown in there. She is not though, a princess in her own right. She is merely a princess by way of marriage the same as Diana was. Everyone always called her "Princess Diana", but that wasn't entirely accurate. She was Princess Charles of Wales, Princess of Wales, Duchess of Cornwall, etc.


The same as if Kate were to marry William, she'd be Princess William of Wales. She wouldn't be Princess Katherine of Wales.

[Lumutqueen]

Originally Posted by Sister Morphine

She is legally-speaking, the Princess of Wales, Duchess of Cornwall and a couple other titles thrown in there. She is not though, a princess in her own right. She is merely a princess by way of marriage the same as Diana was. Everyone always called her "Princess Diana", but that wasn't entirely accurate. She was Princess Charles of Wales, Princess of Wales, Duchess of Cornwall, etc.


The same as if Kate were to marry William, she'd be Princess William of Wales. She wouldn't be Princess Katherine of Wales.

Yes that what I already knew.
Couldn't she be Princess Charles, Duchess of Cornwall?

[branchg]

She is "HRH The Princess Charles" as the wife of a son of The Sovereign. As her husband is the heir to the throne, she is also "The Princess of Wales and Countess of Chester, Duchess of Cornwall, Duchess of Rothesay, Countess of Carrick, Baroness Renfrew and Princess of Scotland".

If Charles died before becoming King, she would remain HRH The Duchess of Cornwall as a widow. Since there wouldn't be a new Duchess until William had a son who then married, it is likely she would remain styled The Duchess of Cornwall until her death.

While William as King could certainly grant her the style of "HRH Princess Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall" as The Queen did with The Duchess of Gloucester, it wouldn't be likely to happen as the circumstances are different.

[Sister Morphine]

Originally Posted by lumutqueen

Yes that what I already knew.
Couldn't she be Princess Charles, Duchess of Cornwall?

She already is. She just chooses to be known as the Duchess of Cornwall out of deference to Diana having been Princess of Wales. It doesn't mean that legally she isn't any of those things. It's her own preference not to be styled publicly as "Princess", but she still is one.