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  #641  
Old 03-29-2009, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iowabelle View Post
There is something about historical novels that always irritates me. Some of them refer to a certain British nobleman as the Marquis of X. I always thought that the correct British term is Marquess (and the female variation Marchioness).

Are there any British nobles called Marquis of X, or have these authors failed to do their research?
Marquess is used officially by the roll of peers by The Crown Office, however some peers from Scotland use Marquis in memory of the Auld Alliance with France
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  #642  
Old 06-15-2009, 08:17 PM
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Can the Queen give any title she wants to anyone

What is the highest title the Queen can give anyone? Can she give it to whoever she wants, or does she need a reason?
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  #643  
Old 06-15-2009, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Baroness Squigy View Post
What is the highest title the Queen can give anyone? Can she give it to whoever she wants, or does she need a reason?
She made Philip a prince and she's created at least a couple of dukes.

If she started creating a bunch of titles for non-family members, there might be a push-back, but not as much as when they had seats in the House of Lords.
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  #644  
Old 06-16-2009, 07:01 PM
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Here's another question I'm pondering about marquesses. According to wikipedia, the Marquess of Winchester is the "Premier Marquess of England." Anyone else styling himself as Marquess is using a subsidiary title of a Duke. Is that correct??

So, the Duke of Marlborough has the subsidiary title of Marquess of Blandford, which is the courtesy title used by the Duke's son.
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  #645  
Old 06-16-2009, 09:27 PM
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He is indeed the holder of the only marquessate in the Peerage of England that isn't subsidiary to a dukedom (there are, however, marquesses of Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain, and the United Kingdom).
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  #646  
Old 06-18-2009, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Baroness Squigy View Post
What is the highest title the Queen can give anyone? Can she give it to whoever she wants, or does she need a reason?
As The Sovereign and fount of all honours, technically she can create anyone a Peer, of which the highest rank would be a Duke. Since The House of Lords has been reformed and downsized, it is highly unlikely she would grant a hereditary peerage to anyone but a member of the royal family without taking advice from the Government. Lifetime peerages are granted to retiring Prime Ministers and a few others.

There hasn't been a dukedom granted outside the royal family since Queen Victoria elevated Hugh Grosvenor, 3rd Marquess of Westminster, to Duke in 1874. The last time it was seriously contemplated was for Winston Churchill when he retired for the last time from public office. She offered to create him Duke of London with the understanding he would decline it.

Prince/Princess of the UK is a style (it holds no rank in the Peerage) limited by the 1917 Letters Patent to members of the royal family. Philip is the only person who was created a Prince of the UK outside the guidelines set forth by George V.
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  #647  
Old 06-18-2009, 09:18 AM
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Philip is the only person who was created a Prince of the UK outside the guidelines set forth by George V.
And in a certain way, also Charles and Anne...or not?
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  #648  
Old 06-18-2009, 11:45 AM
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i have a feeling that charles b 1948 and anne b 1950, may not have been prince / princess before their mothers accession to the throne in 1952.( as children of a monarch they automatally become prince and princess). philip was not to become a prince until 1957. i say this as in the uk any issue of a princess is not styled as such.
i may be wrong, their grandfather the king may have had created his grandchilren as such ? i have often wondered about this issue. any ideas anyone ?
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  #649  
Old 06-18-2009, 12:42 PM
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I meant exactly this before, Jonny...
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  #650  
Old 06-18-2009, 01:44 PM
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mafan,
perhaps charles and anne was honorary prince and princess in the full knowlege that they would be as such upon the kings death upon the asscession of thier mother princess elizabeth.........
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  #651  
Old 06-18-2009, 01:56 PM
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Princess Anne before her mothers accesion was
HRH Princess Anne of Edinburgh

Prince Charles was
HRH Prince Charles of Edinburgh.

I suppose when Anne was created Princess Royal and Charles Prince Of Wales that was creating them Princes/Princess.
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  #652  
Old 06-18-2009, 02:23 PM
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No, before that; when they were born, they were "only" the children of a Duke, according to british laws; so I guess the King had created them Princes.
Later, QE created them Prince of Wales and Princess Royal.
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  #653  
Old 06-18-2009, 02:49 PM
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yes it does look like that they were honorary prince / princess, i do know that issue of princesses in the uk have no such rank, for example the children of princesses margaret and anne
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  #654  
Old 06-18-2009, 02:52 PM
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By Letters Patent of King George V, both Charles and Anne couldn't have the titles of British Prince and Princess, as well as the style Royal Highness at the time of their birth for they were not male-line children or grandchildren of the Sovereign. They would, instead, have the styles and titles of the children of Royal Duke (Charles would have Philip's secondary title - Earl of Merioneth, and Anne would be titled by courtesy as Lady Anne Mountbatten).

However, in October 1948, George VI issued new Letters Patent granting any children of Princess Elizabeth and the Duke of Edinburgh the titles of British Princes and Princesses and the style Royal Highness, thus ensuring that the children of the Heiress Presumptive have the Royal and Princely status.
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  #655  
Old 06-18-2009, 03:01 PM
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Smile what a star !!

a very very very very, big thankyou for the adove., you are a star. i am happy with that.
i now remember reading something of the sort many years back, but you know how it is, very often you forget these things over time.
cheers jonny
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  #656  
Old 06-18-2009, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by MAfan View Post
And in a certain way, also Charles and Anne...or not?
Not really. George VI issued letters patent in 1948 stating the children of The Princess Elizabeth and The Duke of Edinburgh would enjoy the style and attribute of HRH Prince/Princess of the UK, knowing he would not have a son to displace her as the heir and a spare was on the way (Charles was born shortly afterward).

But they would have assumed the style and rank automatically once their mother became The Sovereign in 1952.
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  #657  
Old 06-18-2009, 07:21 PM
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thank you for your reply, it is helpful

thus charles and anne was not offically created prince / princess, but would enjoy the style...... etc, as tough they where prince and princess.
sounds very much like what i meant by honorary prince / princess to me.

(edit, yes both charles and ann was prince and princess of the realm, as per the letters and patant of king george VI OF 1948. i have since be made aware that i was mistaken to think otherwise, please see post number 650 below)

so, mafan, i hope this clears it up for you !!!!!!

jonny
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  #658  
Old 06-18-2009, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by jonnydep1 View Post
thus charles and anne was not offically created prince / princess, but would enjoy the style...... etc, as tough they where prince and princess.
sounds very much like what i meant by honorary prince / princess to me.
No, they were born HRH Prince Charles and HRH Princess Anne because that's what the 1948 Letters Patent stated. Otherwise, under the 1917 Letters Patent of George V, they would have been styled as the children of a Duke as female-line grandchildren do not take the status of HRH, but from their father instead.

For example, Princess Anne married Mr. Mark Phillips and had two children. Mark declined to accept a peerage from The Queen, so his children are Mr. Peter Phillips and Ms. Zara Phillips as female-line grandchildren of The Sovereign. If Anne had been heiress presumptive and The Queen had no sons, she also would have likely issued letters patent stating they were HRH Prince/Princess of the UK as the spares.

In fact, it was reported The Queen did offer to issue letters patent elevating Peter and Zara to HRH Prince/Princess of the UK as the rest of her grandchildren (as male-line descendants) would be so entitled. Anne declined the offer, desiring a more normal upbringing for her children without the burden of being HRH.

To confuse the matter even further, HRH The Earl of Wessex's children are not styled HRH Prince/Princess of the UK, even though under the 1917 Letters Patent, they are automatically entitled to it. Instead, they are being styled as the children of a Peer (James, Viscount Severn and The Lady Louise Windsor), rather than HRH Prince James of Wessex and HRH Princess Louise of Wessex.
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  #659  
Old 06-19-2009, 10:57 AM
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Hi All,

I believe I read somewhere else that only the children of the Queen use a "the" before Prince/Princess and that the other Princes and Princessess do not. Since I read that I have not been able to find it again. Do I have it right?

Thanks,
J
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  #660  
Old 06-19-2009, 11:23 AM
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I believe I read somewhere else that only the children of the Queen use a "the" before Prince/Princess and that the other Princes and Princessess do not. Since I read that I have not been able to find it again. Do I have it right?
Yes, the children of The Sovereign use the distinction of "The Prince/Princess" to signify their precedence over other members of the royal family who hold the rank of HRH (the grandchildren of The Sovereign in the male-line).
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