Questions about British Styles and Titles

[Iluvbertie]

Originally Posted by Elspeth

If Beatrice and Eugenie marry at anything like a normal age, there won't be any "of York" descendants around anyway. I doubt Harry would be created Duke of York while the Queen was still alive, even if he married. He'd maybe get an earldom and then be created Duke of York by his father after Beatrice and Eugenie were both married and no longer using "of York."

Princess Margaret was known originally as Princess Margaret of York and she was most certainly around when Andrew was created Duke of York.

The same thing with the children of George V, who had been born with the of York - Edward VIII, George VI, Mary and Henry, were all still alive when George V gave the future George VI the York title. George VI was born Albert of York and then became Duke of York in his own right despite the title having merged with the crown (normally for a son to have that happen he would be inheriting the title from his father e.g. the present Duke of Kent was Prince Edward of Kent until his father died).

[yvr girl]

Originally Posted by Elspeth

If Beatrice and Eugenie marry at anything like a normal age, there won't be any "of York" descendants around anyway. I doubt Harry would be created Duke of York while the Queen was still alive, even if he married. He'd maybe get an earldom and then be created Duke of York by his father after Beatrice and Eugenie were both married and no longer using "of York."

He'll most likely be using the Duke of York title for another 40 years or more. In theory, he could also still produce a son.

Harry won't be Duke of York.

[kimebear]

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie

Princess Margaret was known originally as Princess Margaret of York and she was most certainly around when Andrew was created Duke of York.

The same thing with the children of George V, who had been born with the of York - Edward VIII, George VI, Mary and Henry, were all still alive when George V gave the future George VI the York title. George VI was born Albert of York and then became Duke of York in his own right despite the title having merged with the crown (normally for a son to have that happen he would be inheriting the title from his father e.g. the present Duke of Kent was Prince Edward of Kent until his father died).

Yes but. When Margaret become The Princess Margaret, she was no longer Princess Margaret of York. That pre-dated the creation of Duke of York for Andrew.

[Elspeth]

Originally Posted by yvr girl

He'll most likely be using the Duke of York title for another 40 years or more. In theory, he could also still produce a son.

Harry won't be Duke of York.

Well, obviously he won't be Duke of York in Andrew's lifetime, but the hypothetical question didn't ask about that; it was talking specifically about descendants, and I'm sure it was understood that two people don't get to be Duke of York simultaneously.

[wbenson]

I'd forgotten that they'd stop being "of York" if they get married. For some reason I was thinking it stuck with them forever as it does with younger sons (and completely forgetting that Princess Alexandra was once Princess Alexandra of Kent).

[Iluvbertie]

Originally Posted by kimebear

Yes but. When Margaret become The Princess Margaret, she was no longer Princess Margaret of York. That pre-dated the creation of Duke of York for Andrew.

Of course but I was making the point that descendents of a Duke of York, who had held the style 'of York' were still alive at the creation of the last two Dukes of York.

In which case there shouldn't be a problem if Beatrice and/or Eugenie were still alive when the next creation takes place.

[yvr girl]

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie

Of course but I was making the point that descendents of a Duke of York, who had held the style 'of York' were still alive at the creation of the last two Dukes of York.

In which case there shouldn't be a problem if Beatrice and/or Eugenie were still alive when the next creation takes place.

Except that the last two Dukes of York became King. Their children are no longer considered 'of York' , they become The Prince or The Princess.

[Iluvbertie]

Originally Posted by yvr girl

Except that the last two Dukes of York became King. Their children are no longer considered 'of York' , they become The Prince or The Princess.

Of course but we have been talking about, at least I have, about people being alive who had used the 'of York' at some time in their lifetime being alive when the next Duke of York was created.

[Lady Marmalade]

It can be a little gray in areas. When her father and mother were still styled HRH the Duke and Duchess of York, she was HRH Princess Margaret of York. When her father became king, she was HRH THE Princess Margaret of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reflecting her status as the daughter of a reigning monarch. When she married, and her husband became an Earl, she was then HRH the Princess Margaret, Countess of Snowdon, Viscountess Linley (until her son was born), to reflect her husband's title.

Please correct me if I have any of this wrong..

But I believe after her father became king, the Duke of York title went back to the Crown, so if he had, say two sons, he could create them using the titles Prince of Wales and the second son Duke of York. Since he had two daughters, this did not happen. However, we saw of course this happen when Princess Elizabeth became queen, she made her first son Prince of Wales, and then Andrew Duke of York on his wedding day.

Whoosh...lot to type..

[Kotroman]

We all know that The Duke of Edinburgh supposedly renounced his titles of Prince of Greece and Denmark. We also know that his children and male-line grandchildren never use these titles. But is there something we don't know?

Did the Duke of Edinburgh simply choose not to use these titles or did he sign some kind of a document which legally deprived him of the titles? If he simply chose not to use them, then his children were legally Greek princes until 1974 and they are still Danish princes (unless the title of Prince of Denmark is limited only to descendants of Christian X, like the succession). I find that very interesting. All British princes from George III to Victoria were princes of Hanover; from Edward VII to George V princes of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha and dukes in Saxony; and now they could all be princes of Denmark until a female ascends the British throne again

So, could (e.g) Princess Beatrice choose to add "Denmark" (and possibly a pretence to the Greek title) to her list of titles? Something like "Princess Beatrice of York and Denmark" or "Princess Beatrice of York, Greece and Denmark"? Is she legally entitled to it? If she is, then referring to Diana, Princess of Wales as Princess Diana is not wrong after all (since a married woman's own name is used in Denmark)

[MAfan]

Wikipedia reported that "Louis Mountbatten urged Philip to renounce his Greek and Danish royal titles, as well as his allegiance to the Greek crown, convert from Greek Orthodoxy to the Church of England, and become a naturalised British subject,[N 3] all of which was done by 18 March 1947"; however, all we know that not all is reported by Wikipedia is right or correct...
If there are no documents stating the renounciaton, I think your theory is correct.

[Menarue]

You have raised a very interesting point and I am waiting to hear what the experts say.

[scooter]

Unless I am having a senior moment, I seem to remember reading on that Duke of Edinburgh will be passed to someone. Was it Edward? That might be a good title for Harry (as the second son of a Monarch) when/if Charles becomes King.

[Menarue]

The title of Duke of Edinburgh has been promised to Edward, but there are lots of other titles in abeyance. Clarence isn´t very popular because the last one wasn´t considered a very good person to emulate.

[muriel]

Originally Posted by MAfan

Wikipedia reported that "Louis Mountbatten urged Philip to renounce his Greek and Danish royal titles, as well as his allegiance to the Greek crown, convert from Greek Orthodoxy to the Church of England, and become a naturalised British subject,[N 3] all of which was done by 18 March 1947"; however, all we know that not all is reported by Wikipedia is right or correct...
If there are no documents stating the renounciaton, I think your theory is correct.

I am no expert onthe topic, but I understand that Philip did renounce all claims to the Greek and Danish crowns beofre marrying Elizabeth.

[MAfan]

Yes, I also understand it; so that's my question: does a written renouncement or a legal document attesting it exist? It may be that, becoming a British citizen, the Prince has only choosen to be Philip Mountbatten, without any renouncement.

[Kotroman]

Originally Posted by Menarue

The title of Duke of Edinburgh has been promised to Edward, but there are lots of other titles in abeyance. Clarence isn´t very popular because the last one wasn´t considered a very good person to emulate.

Upon Philip's death the title will automatically be inherited by Charles, Philip's eldest son. Edward can only get the title when Charles becomes king, i.e. when the title reverts to the Crown and becomes available again. Also, a person has to be heir to a title in abeyance in order to get the title from the Sovereign (title is in abeyance when a peer of England - not of Scotland - dies leaving two or more daughters, but no sons, since all the daughters, regardless of age, are equal heirs and title is therefore abeyant until the Sovereign recognizes one of the daughters as the rightful heiress). As far as I know, Edward is not heir to any title in abeyance.

As for Philip's princely titles: I know that he renounced them and stopped using them, but did he cease to be Prince of Greece and Denmark in the eyes of law at that point? Did he sign some kind of a document to make the renunciation legal? If he didn't, then his wife and children were de jure princes and princesses of Greece and Denmark until 1974, right?

[MAfan]

Or Edward can be Duke of Edinburgh soon after his father's death if Charles, Andrew and their descendants renounce to it...

[branchg]

Philip ceased to be a Prince of Greece & Denmark legally with the approval of George, King of the Hellenes, in 1947. At that point, he became a British national and took the name of Lt. Philip Mountbatten, RN as his legal name in the UK.

George VI created him a Royal Highness and granted the titles he holds now. He also issued letters patent when The Princess Elizabeth became pregnant stating her children would be Prince/Princess of the UK with the style of HRH. So, the children were styled by order of The Sovereign, rather than their father's rank.

[Kotroman]

So, it was an agreement between Philip and the King of the Hellenes? Weren't there any documents at all?

There is no such thing as renunciation of peerage titles in the United Kingdom. You inherit the title, you bear the title. I'm afraid Edward will just have to wait for both of his parents to die to get the title.