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  #561  
Old 08-06-2008, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
Technically, Lord/Lady is a courtesy style, not a title. The Letters Patent of 1917 provide that great-grandchildren of a Sovereign in the male line are styled as the children of a Duke.
"shall have and enjoy in all occasions the style and title enjoyed by the children of Dukes of these Our Realms"

While your point is very valid, the original wording is a little ambiguous in its interpretation. Personally I would prefer the continued use of HH Prince of X.
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  #562  
Old 08-06-2008, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Melania View Post
Ok, thanks for answering my question. I didn't know that. I'm glad I now know.

Also, someone said earlier in this thread that it would be nice if Prince Michael had been given a peerage, then there would be more titled Windsors to keep up with (or something similar to that effect). I also feel that this would have been a good thing, but if it was going to happen, it would have happened already.
The trend has been to grant dukedoms only to the sons of Sovereigns, which then passes to their eldest son. Since the other grandchildren in the male-line also enjoy the style and title of HRH and Prince/Princess of the UK, the intent of the 1917 Letters Patent was to limit these honours going forward.

It is likely new letters patent will eventually be issued once Charles succeeds his mother even further limiting the honours of HRH Prince/Princess of the UK to the children of The Sovereign and the eldest grandchild, with everyone else being Lord/Lady or enjoying whatever Peerages may be created.
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  #563  
Old 08-06-2008, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by kimebear View Post
"shall have and enjoy in all occasions the style and title enjoyed by the children of Dukes of these Our Realms"

While your point is very valid, the original wording is a little ambiguous in its interpretation. Personally I would prefer the continued use of HH Prince of X.
It was ambigious because some great-grandchildren already enjoy courtesy styles superior to being Lord or Lady alone, such as the use of secondary earldoms as their style, or may marry a man of inferor rank while retaining their honour as Lady X.
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  #564  
Old 08-24-2008, 02:16 AM
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Duke of Edinburgh

In answer to a question about 10 pages ago - lol! No, Charles will not be Duke of Edinburgh. It was announced on the wedding day of the Earl and Countess of Wessex (Edward and Sophie) that when his father passes away Edward will become Duke of Edinburgh. Since Charles is Prince of Wales and will be king, and since Andrew inherited his grandfather's title Duke of York, the Duke of Edinburgh title passed to Edward. It surprised me a bit, since I was thinking they might pass it to Harry. Maybe it wasn't grand enough.

As far as Harry goes, I'm thinking that he will become the Duke of Lancaster. The last person to officially hold the title before it was swallowed up into the monarchy as one of the Queen's official titles, was Henry V.

I think the Queen will pass that title to Henry so that as the second son of the Monarch (like her father) he will hold his own title and lands. Also with the Tudor revial that seems to be going on recently, I think now would be the time to bring back the Lancaster title.
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  #565  
Old 08-24-2008, 02:34 AM
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So, when Edward and Sophie become the Duke and Duchess of Edingburgh, what will happen to their current title of Earl and Countess of Wessex? Does it get passed on or will it be kept as an additional title for Edward and Sophie? Or will the Wessex title become defunct?
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  #566  
Old 08-24-2008, 02:36 AM
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The Duke of Edinburgh title will go to Charles as the oldest son, being absorbed by the crown when he becomes king. At that time, it is presumed that he will re-create the title for Edward, making Edward HRH The Duke of Edinburgh, the 4th creation of the title. In the UK, titles pass from father to eldest son, not father to whatever son he wants it to go to. With the very public announcement of the wishes of his parents on this matter, it is highly unlikely that Charles will not honor them.

As for Wessex their son James, the current Viscount Severn, will inherit the title of Earl of Wessex. Whether or not the HRH goes with it remains to be seen.
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  #567  
Old 08-24-2008, 02:39 AM
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Originally Posted by windsorbrides1 View Post
In answer to a question about 10 pages ago - lol! No, Charles will not be Duke of Edinburgh. It was announced on the wedding day of the Earl and Countess of Wessex (Edward and Sophie) that when his father passes away Edward will become Duke of Edinburgh. Since Charles is Prince of Wales and will be king, and since Andrew inherited his grandfather's title Duke of York, the Duke of Edinburgh title passed to Edward. It surprised me a bit, since I was thinking they might pass it to Harry. Maybe it wasn't grand enough.

As far as Harry goes, I'm thinking that he will become the Duke of Lancaster. The last person to officially hold the title before it was swallowed up into the monarchy as one of the Queen's official titles, was Henry V.

I think the Queen will pass that title to Henry so that as the second son of the Monarch (like her father) he will hold his own title and lands. Also with the Tudor revial that seems to be going on recently, I think now would be the time to bring back the Lancaster title.

Actually, Duke of Edinburgh title - Charles will inherit it if Philip dies before the Queen. If Philip dies after the Queen the title will still pass to Charles. Either way Edward can't become Duke of Edinburgh until after Charles becomes king and recreates the title for his younger brother. That was what was announced at the time of Edward's marriage (it does of course assume that Charles, William, Harry and Andrew all outlive the Queen without further legitimate male issue as then Edward would inherit the title rather than have it recreated for him). When Charles becomes king, if his father has predeceased the Queen then the Duke of Edinburgh title will have merged with the crown and be available for regrant.

Andrew didn't inherit the title Duke of York from his grandfather. That title merged with the crown when George VI became King. From 1936 until 1986 no one held that title. Andrew's title is a new grant of the title.

I doubt if Harry would get Duke of Lancaster as the income of the Duchy of Lancaster estate is the means of providing the monarch with a private income in the same way that the Duchy of Cornwall estate provides the income for the heir to the throne. If your scenario was to happen - i.e. Harry got the Duke of Lancaster title to have the lands etc what would provide the private income of the monarch?

The Civil List payments only cover the costs of doing the duties of the Head of State but aren't sufficient for the day to day living expenses of the monarch.
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  #568  
Old 08-27-2008, 01:15 PM
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The Dukedom of Lancaster merged with the Crown centuries ago and is simply a style used by The Sovereign alone ("HM The Queen, The Duke of Lancaster") when on official business in the duchy.

It cannot be re-created in the Peerage.
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  #569  
Old 09-19-2008, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Australian View Post
So, when Edward and Sophie become the Duke and Duchess of Edingburgh, what will happen to their current title of Earl and Countess of Wessex? Does it get passed on or will it be kept as an additional title for Edward and Sophie? Or will the Wessex title become defunct?
They still would remain The Earl and Countess of Wessex, but their styles as The Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh would take precedence as a higher rank in the Peerage.

Charles would create his brother the 1st Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn. So, his earldom would become a secondary style, used by his son, James, as his new courtesy title (assuming he does not assume his birthright title and rank as HRH Prince James).
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  #570  
Old 09-23-2008, 07:29 AM
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Posts discussing possible titles for William and Harry have been moved to the William & Harry and wives titles thread.
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  #571  
Old 10-31-2008, 05:55 AM
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Royal Dukedoms

Am I right in assuming that if Prince Andrew does not take a second wife and have a son, Prince Edward is heir to the Dukedom of York and, in the future, could well become Duke of Edinburgh & York?
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  #572  
Old 10-31-2008, 08:15 AM
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No, it was created to pass through "male heirs of body". If he doesn't remarry and have a son, it will become extinct after his death.
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  #573  
Old 10-31-2008, 01:22 PM
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I Wonder if its possible Prince Henry getting it ?
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  #574  
Old 10-31-2008, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
No, it was created to pass through "male heirs of body". If he doesn't remarry and have a son, it will become extinct after his death.
That's correct. Unlike regular dukedoms, royal dukedoms aren't inherited by brothers in the absence of sons. If George VI hadn't become King, the Duke of York title would have become extinct on his death, it wouldn't have passed to the Duke of Gloucester.
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  #575  
Old 10-31-2008, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Royal Fan View Post
I Wonder if its possible Prince Henry getting it ?

Possible but highly unlikely.

For it to be available for Harry to get it Andrew would have to die before Harry is given a dukedom in his own right.

It is possible that something similar to the situation with the Edinburgh title could happen with Harry initially getting an Earldom on the understanding that when Andrew died either Harry's grandmother, father or brother will then create him Duke of York but he could be waiting for a very long time then to become a Duke as Andrew is only 24 years older than Harry. Andrew has the same long living genes as his siblings and could easily live another 40 years and that would have Harry waiting to become a royal duke into his 60s.

It is far more likely that Harry will get a Dukedom of his own at marriage and the York title will become extinct in its current creation on Andrew's death and be available for William's second son or possibly William's heir's second son.

Of course the government could, when it inevitably decides to even up inheritance to the throne between the sexes, also pass legislation to allow for the same inheritance rights for women to all titles not just the crown and thus York would pass to Beatrice.
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  #576  
Old 11-01-2008, 12:49 AM
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I doubt The Queen will grant dukedoms to William or Harry anytime soon. More likely, she would create them Earls upon marriage, with Charles conferring a dukedom on Harry once he is King. William will automatically be Duke of Cornwall.
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  #577  
Old 11-02-2008, 11:52 PM
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I think, given William's status as the first son to the heir, he will be created a royal duke upon his marriage.
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  #578  
Old 11-03-2008, 01:36 PM
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So then what would happen when he becomes Duke of Cornwall? Would he be Duke of Cornwall and...for example, Cambridge? Or would the Duke of Cornwall title supercede another Dukedom?

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Originally Posted by Lady Marmalade View Post
I think, given William's status as the first son to the heir, he will be created a royal duke upon his marriage.
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  #579  
Old 11-03-2008, 04:14 PM
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So then what would happen when he becomes Duke of Cornwall? Would he be Duke of Cornwall and...for example, Cambridge? Or would the Duke of Cornwall title supercede another Dukedom?

It would be the same situation that George V was in in 1901 when he was known as the Duke of Cornwall and York.

He had been created Duke of York by his grandmother and then inherited Duke of Cornwall and Duke of Rothesay when Victoria died. During the majority of that year (except in Scotland where Rothesay is used instead of Cornwall) he was known as the Duke of Cornwall and York.

Those were the titles used to describe him when he opened the first Australian Parliament on 9th May 1901 with his Duchess (later Queen Mary) by his side.
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  #580  
Old 11-30-2008, 07:20 PM
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Future Titles and Rank of Queen Elizabeth's Descendants

I have been thinking about the future titles and rank of Queen Elizabeth's descendants.

I don't think Prince William will ever get his "own" title; I think he will merely suceed his father as Duke of Cornwall, Earl of Chester, etc and then be created Prince of Wales.

Harry, however....I believe the most likely ducal titles would be Cambridge or Sussex, which were the two the "experts" predicted for his uncle (although they were later proved wrong when it was announced that the Earl of Wessex would be made Duke of Edinburgh when prince Philip died). However, I would much prefer him to become "Duke of Clarence" or even "Duke of Clarence and Avondale". Not only does it have a better ring to it it was also used in not too distant past by Prince Albert Victor, and further back in time by Prince Lionel (second son of King Edward III).

Also, the Queen's other grandchildren....

When the Duke of York dies, will his eldest daughter inherit the duchy? If so, why is she not permitted use of the courtesy title usually held by the heir? Also, when Beatrice and Eugenie marry, if they were to marry a non-royal, will they lose HRH and royal title? Or is there any possibility of Queen Elizabeth (or whoever is monarch at the time) elevating their husbands-to-be to the rank of Prince (like was done prior to her marriage for Prince Philip, who was temporarily a commoner).

And Viscount Severn, will his children and grandchildren be HRH also?
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