Questions about British Styles and Titles 1: Ending 2022

[branchg]

Marie-Christine would lose the style of a Princess, as the 1996 Letters Patent make clear a former wife of a Prince of the UK is not entitled to hold or enjoy the HRH upon divorce. Although The Sovereign can choose to do otherwise, it is not a given.

More likely, she might be granted a courtesy style (i.e. Lady Marie-Christine Windsor) as a divorcee until she remarried.

 

[Lady Marmalade]

She had a title before her marriage. I would think she would simply revert back to Baroness..

 

[branchg]

It would be entirely up to The Sovereign as to what, if any, style or title she would hold. If given no style, then she would be Marie-Christine Windsor legally (if she chose) or could revert to her pre-marital name.

"Baroness" is a mere courtesy style, especially since she is not of German royal blood. Her mother, however, was from an ancient Austrian-Hungarian noble family.

 

[iowabelle]

There is something about historical novels that always irritates me. Some of them refer to a certain British nobleman as the Marquis of X. I always thought that the correct British term is Marquess (and the female variation Marchioness).

Are there any British nobles called Marquis of X, or have these authors failed to do their research?

 

[branchg]

Are there any British nobles called Marquis of X, or have these authors failed to do their research?

Marquess is the English version of Marquis which is French/Spanish.

It's roughly the same, although the Peerage in the UK is not equivalent to the old ancien regime in France or the grandees in Spain.

 

[MAfan]

And if Princess Michael would be widow, what would her title be? Would she remain HRH the Princess Michael?

 

[Kotroman]

That's a good question. Husband's name is usually dropped from usage when there is no husband anymore (i.e. Princess Henry reverted to The Princess Beatrice after her husband's death). However, Princess Michael of Kent doesn't have a princely title of her own. I doubt she would revert to Baroness

 

[Menarue]

That's a good question. Husband's name is usually dropped from usage when there is no husband anymore (i.e. Princess Henry reverted to The Princess Beatrice after her husband's death). However, Princess Michael of Kent doesn't have a princely title of her own. I doubt she would revert to Baroness

Well I certainly agree with you on this. Baroness? No way.

 

[MAfan]

maybe she would be treated as the widows of younger sons of a peer...for example, Lady Randolph Churchill continued to use this title after the death of lord Randolph, or Lady Charles Cavendish, nèe Adele Astaire...

 

[branchg]

And if Princess Michael would be widow, what would her title be? Would she remain HRH the Princess Michael?

She still would be Princess Michael of Kent as a widow. Her title reflects her marriage, whether her husband is alive or not.

Husband's name is usually dropped from usage when there is no husband anymore (i.e. Princess Henry reverted to The Princess Beatrice after her husband's death).

It does not get dropped. In the Greek Royal House, for example, both Princess Andrew and Princess Nicholas remained styled as such after the deaths of their husbands.
Princess Beatrice was the daughter of a Sovereign and it was entirely her choice to revert to her birthright style of HRH The Princess Beatrice after Prince Henry died.

 

[RoyalProtocol]

There is something about historical novels that always irritates me. Some of them refer to a certain British nobleman as the Marquis of X. I always thought that the correct British term is Marquess (and the female variation Marchioness).

Are there any British nobles called Marquis of X, or have these authors failed to do their research?

Marquess is used officially by the roll of peers by The Crown Office, however some peers from Scotland use Marquis in memory of the Auld Alliance with France

 

[Baroness Squigy]

Can the Queen give any title she wants to anyone

What is the highest title the Queen can give anyone? Can she give it to whoever she wants, or does she need a reason?

 

[yvr girl]

What is the highest title the Queen can give anyone? Can she give it to whoever she wants, or does she need a reason?

She made Philip a prince and she's created at least a couple of dukes.

If she started creating a bunch of titles for non-family members, there might be a push-back, but not as much as when they had seats in the House of Lords.

 

[iowabelle]

Here's another question I'm pondering about marquesses. According to wikipedia, the Marquess of Winchester is the "Premier Marquess of England." Anyone else styling himself as Marquess is using a subsidiary title of a Duke. Is that correct??

So, the Duke of Marlborough has the subsidiary title of Marquess of Blandford, which is the courtesy title used by the Duke's son.

 

[wbenson]

He is indeed the holder of the only marquessate in the Peerage of England that isn't subsidiary to a dukedom (there are, however, marquesses of Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain, and the United Kingdom).

 

[branchg]

What is the highest title the Queen can give anyone? Can she give it to whoever she wants, or does she need a reason?

As The Sovereign and fount of all honours, technically she can create anyone a Peer, of which the highest rank would be a Duke. Since The House of Lords has been reformed and downsized, it is highly unlikely she would grant a hereditary peerage to anyone but a member of the royal family without taking advice from the Government. Lifetime peerages are granted to retiring Prime Ministers and a few others.

There hasn't been a dukedom granted outside the royal family since Queen Victoria elevated Hugh Grosvenor, 3rd Marquess of Westminster, to Duke in 1874. The last time it was seriously contemplated was for Winston Churchill when he retired for the last time from public office. She offered to create him Duke of London with the understanding he would decline it.

Prince/Princess of the UK is a style (it holds no rank in the Peerage) limited by the 1917 Letters Patent to members of the royal family. Philip is the only person who was created a Prince of the UK outside the guidelines set forth by George V.

 

[MAfan]

Philip is the only person who was created a Prince of the UK outside the guidelines set forth by George V.

And in a certain way, also Charles and Anne...or not?

 

[jonnydep]

i have a feeling that charles b 1948 and anne b 1950, may not have been prince / princess before their mothers accession to the throne in 1952.( as children of a monarch they automatally become prince and princess). philip was not to become a prince until 1957. i say this as in the uk any issue of a princess is not styled as such.
i may be wrong, their grandfather the king may have had created his grandchilren as such ? i have often wondered about this issue. any ideas anyone ?

 

[MAfan]

I meant exactly this before, Jonny...

 

[jonnydep]

mafan,
perhaps charles and anne was honorary prince and princess in the full knowlege that they would be as such upon the kings death upon the asscession of thier mother princess elizabeth.........

 

[Lumutqueen]

Princess Anne before her mothers accesion was
HRH Princess Anne of Edinburgh

Prince Charles was
HRH Prince Charles of Edinburgh.

I suppose when Anne was created Princess Royal and Charles Prince Of Wales that was creating them Princes/Princess.

 

[MAfan]

No, before that; when they were born, they were "only" the children of a Duke, according to british laws; so I guess the King had created them Princes.
Later, QE created them Prince of Wales and Princess Royal.

 

[jonnydep]

yes it does look like that they were honorary prince / princess, i do know that issue of princesses in the uk have no such rank, for example the children of princesses margaret and anne

 

[Marsel]

By Letters Patent of King George V, both Charles and Anne couldn't have the titles of British Prince and Princess, as well as the style Royal Highness at the time of their birth for they were not male-line children or grandchildren of the Sovereign. They would, instead, have the styles and titles of the children of Royal Duke (Charles would have Philip's secondary title - Earl of Merioneth, and Anne would be titled by courtesy as Lady Anne Mountbatten).

However, in October 1948, George VI issued new Letters Patent granting any children of Princess Elizabeth and the Duke of Edinburgh the titles of British Princes and Princesses and the style Royal Highness, thus ensuring that the children of the Heiress Presumptive have the Royal and Princely status.

 

[jonnydep]

what a star !!

a very very very very, big thankyou for the adove., you are a star. i am happy with that.
i now remember reading something of the sort many years back, but you know how it is, very often you forget these things over time.
cheers jonny

 

[branchg]

And in a certain way, also Charles and Anne...or not?

Not really. George VI issued letters patent in 1948 stating the children of The Princess Elizabeth and The Duke of Edinburgh would enjoy the style and attribute of HRH Prince/Princess of the UK, knowing he would not have a son to displace her as the heir and a spare was on the way (Charles was born shortly afterward).

But they would have assumed the style and rank automatically once their mother became The Sovereign in 1952.

 

[jonnydep]

thank you for your reply, it is helpful

thus charles and anne was not offically created prince / princess, but would enjoy the style...... etc, as tough they where prince and princess.
sounds very much like what i meant by honorary prince / princess to me.

(edit, yes both charles and ann was prince and princess of the realm, as per the letters and patant of king george VI OF 1948. i have since be made aware that i was mistaken to think otherwise, please see post number 650 below)

so, mafan, i hope this clears it up for you !!!!!!

jonny

 

[branchg]

thus charles and anne was not offically created prince / princess, but would enjoy the style...... etc, as tough they where prince and princess.
sounds very much like what i meant by honorary prince / princess to me.

No, they were born HRH Prince Charles and HRH Princess Anne because that's what the 1948 Letters Patent stated. Otherwise, under the 1917 Letters Patent of George V, they would have been styled as the children of a Duke as female-line grandchildren do not take the status of HRH, but from their father instead.

For example, Princess Anne married Mr. Mark Phillips and had two children. Mark declined to accept a peerage from The Queen, so his children are Mr. Peter Phillips and Ms. Zara Phillips as female-line grandchildren of The Sovereign. If Anne had been heiress presumptive and The Queen had no sons, she also would have likely issued letters patent stating they were HRH Prince/Princess of the UK as the spares.

In fact, it was reported The Queen did offer to issue letters patent elevating Peter and Zara to HRH Prince/Princess of the UK as the rest of her grandchildren (as male-line descendants) would be so entitled. Anne declined the offer, desiring a more normal upbringing for her children without the burden of being HRH.

To confuse the matter even further, HRH The Earl of Wessex's children are not styled HRH Prince/Princess of the UK, even though under the 1917 Letters Patent, they are automatically entitled to it. Instead, they are being styled as the children of a Peer (James, Viscount Severn and The Lady Louise Windsor), rather than HRH Prince James of Wessex and HRH Princess Louise of Wessex.

 

[denverjeff]

Hi All,

I believe I read somewhere else that only the children of the Queen use a "the" before Prince/Princess and that the other Princes and Princessess do not. Since I read that I have not been able to find it again. Do I have it right?

Thanks,
J

 

[branchg]

I believe I read somewhere else that only the children of the Queen use a "the" before Prince/Princess and that the other Princes and Princessess do not. Since I read that I have not been able to find it again. Do I have it right?

Yes, the children of The Sovereign use the distinction of "The Prince/Princess" to signify their precedence over other members of the royal family who hold the rank of HRH (the grandchildren of The Sovereign in the male-line).