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  #4241  
Old 04-20-2019, 02:56 AM
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Originally Posted by royal-blue View Post
In 1996, the Queen issued new letters patent:

The QUEEN has been pleased by Letters Patent under the Great Seal of the Realm dated 21st August 1996, to declare that a former wife (other than a widow until she shall remarry) of a son of a Sovereign of these Realms, of a son of a son of a Sovereign and of the eldest living son of the eldest son of The Prince of Wales shall not be entitled to hold and enjoy the style, title or attribute of Royal Highness.

Does this mean that if Prince Michael of Kent, or the Duke of Gloucester, for example, were to divorce, would their wife remain an HRH?

Same if Prince Andrew had a son who was an HRH, would a divorced wife retain the HRH?

And imagine Prince Philip were to remarry (for whatever reason) and subsequently divorce, would the new Duchess of Edinburgh still be HRH after divorce?
The Duke of Gloucester, The Duke of Kent and Prince Michael of Kent are all sons of a son of the Sovereign and so, should they divorce their wives would lose the HRH as stated in these LPs. Their fathers were The Prince Henry and The Prince George - 3rd and 4th sons of George V

Prince Andrew's son would also be covered under this as the son of a son of a sovereign.

Note the the LPs refer to 'a' Sovereign not 'the Sovereign.

Prince Philip's situation is not covered so new LPs would need to be issued if he were to remarry and then divorce after the death of the Queen.

These LPs also wouldn't apply to a divorced wife of Prince Louis in the present reign (yes I am aware he will be one this week and so the chances of him marrying and divorcing while the Queen is still alive is highly improbable).
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  #4242  
Old 04-30-2019, 10:31 AM
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Please excuse me for missing this, but I forgot that this child will not be hrh as Charles and Andrews children were.Can someone recap for me or send me to the right thread which showed how that worked and then I think I do remember that the queen issued patents that all of Williams children would be hrh. In other words a long-winded way of saying what is the rule for children to be hrh
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  #4243  
Old 04-30-2019, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Frelinghighness View Post
Please excuse me for missing this, but I forgot that this child will not be hrh as Charles and Andrews children were.Can someone recap for me or send me to the right thread which showed how that worked and then I think I do remember that the queen issued patents that all of Williams children would be hrh. In other words a long-winded way of saying what is the rule for children to be hrh
The child or children if they have more will become HRH when Charles is King. This is due to the LP's issued back when by King George (I forget what number but I think the Queen's grandfather).


LaRae
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  #4244  
Old 04-30-2019, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frelinghighness View Post
Please excuse me for missing this, but I forgot that this child will not be hrh as Charles and Andrews children were.Can someone recap for me or send me to the right thread which showed how that worked and then I think I do remember that the queen issued patents that all of Williams children would be hrh. In other words a long-winded way of saying what is the rule for children to be hrh
Currently, the following persons are HRHs in the UK:

1) Children of a British sovereign.

2) Children of a son of a British sovereign ( exception:: the Earl of Wessex’s children).

3) Children of the eldest living son of the Prince of Wales.

4) Wives of a British prince.

5). The Duke of Edinburgh as the reigning Queen’s husband.

Harry’s child will be born as a great-grandchild of a British sovereign in male line and., as such, will be styled as a child of a Duke in the peerage of the UK. If it is a boy, he will use one of his father’s subsidiary titles in the peerage, probably Earl of Dumbarton; if it is a girl, she will be styled Lady xxx Mountbatten-Windsor.

When Prince Charles becomes King, Harry’s children will be upgraded to HRHs as grandchildren of a King in male line, unless the King decides otherwise, which is possible.
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  #4245  
Old 04-30-2019, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frelinghighness View Post
Please excuse me for missing this, but I forgot that this child will not be hrh as Charles and Andrews children were.Can someone recap for me or send me to the right thread which showed how that worked and then I think I do remember that the queen issued patents that all of Williams children would be hrh. In other words a long-winded way of saying what is the rule for children to be hrh
Charles and Andrew’s children were male line grandchildren of the monarch. Harry’s child currently will only be a male line great grandchild of the monarch. George would have been HRH Prince as the eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales-LP 2917.
The change making all William’s children HRH Prince/Princess was because of the change from male primogeniture for the monarch.
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  #4246  
Old 04-30-2019, 10:54 AM
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It's a fact of life Harry has known from day one. The Cambridge children are different from Harry's children.

Even little Prince Louis has his birthday marked by bell ringing at Westminster Abbey. Harry doesn't get that on his birthday.

His children will be fortunate to live a relatively low key life.
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  #4247  
Old 04-30-2019, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
It's a fact of life Harry has known from day one. The Cambridge children are different from Harry's children.

Even little Prince Louis has his birthday marked by bell ringing at Westminster Abbey. Harry doesn't get that on his birthday.

His children will be fortunate to live a relatively low key life.
Why would that be? Because Harry and Louis are in the same position (younger son of a future king).
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  #4248  
Old 04-30-2019, 11:16 AM
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Why would that be? Because Harry and Louis are in the same position (younger son of a future king).
It's a decision made by the Queen. Westminster Abbey is a royal peculiar under HM's authority.

The Cambridges birthdays are also official flag flying days in the UK. Not a courtesy extended to the Sussex family.

That decision is made by the government.
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  #4249  
Old 04-30-2019, 11:29 AM
ACO ACO is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
It's a decision made by the Queen. Westminster Abbey is a royal peculiar under HM's authority.

The Cambridges birthdays are also official flag flying days in the UK. Not a courtesy extended to the Sussex family.

That decision is made by the government.
Harry will get bells when Charles is King, iirc. William's children are the direct line. I think they do with Charlotte and Louise the same as George to keep that continuity. The same reason she issued the letters to make sure not just the 1st born male was HRH.

It makes perfect sense. The Sussex children don't have that awkwardness as none of them would have been born HRH unlike with the Cambridge kids.
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  #4250  
Old 04-30-2019, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
The child or children if they have more will become HRH when Charles is King. This is due to the LP's issued back when by King George (I forget what number but I think the Queen's grandfather).


LaRae
I think it was King George V. Does anyone know why he issues these LP's?
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  #4251  
Old 04-30-2019, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by duchessrachel View Post
I think it was King George V. Does anyone know why he issues these LP's?
There are various theories out there about it. Here's a site that explores 3 possible reasons:

https://www.royalhistorygeeks.com/ta...etters-patent/
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  #4252  
Old 04-30-2019, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
There are various theories out there about it. Here's a site that explores 3 possible reasons:

https://www.royalhistorygeeks.com/ta...etters-patent/
My understanding is that the main issue was that, previously, great-granchildren of a sovereign in male line were also normally princes too, but with the style only of HH rather than HRH. George V issued those LPs to limit the number of princes/ princesses.
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  #4253  
Old 04-30-2019, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
There are various theories out there about it. Here's a site that explores 3 possible reasons:

https://www.royalhistorygeeks.com/ta...etters-patent/
Thanks. Those are very interesting theories.
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  #4254  
Old 04-30-2019, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
There are various theories out there about it. Here's a site that explores 3 possible reasons:

https://www.royalhistorygeeks.com/ta...etters-patent/
Personal vendetta against the Connaughts? I doubt that very much.

In 1917 Britain was fighting a war against the Central Powers (including Germany), the BRF had just renounced its German styles and titles (taking Windsor as the name of the Royal house) and stripped enemy combatants (even cousins) of their British titles.

At that time it was also unclear whether distant male-line descendants of a sovereign were HRHs or merely HHs (by distant I mean great-grandchildren, great-great-grandchildren, etc.). Follow the link below for a discussion: Victoria, Edward VII, George V (to 1917)

George V apparently decided it was a good time to (1) end the confusion by defining who was entitled to the HRH/HH, and (2) slim the BRF royal family down by (a) limiting the HRH to the children of the sovereign & the children of the sovereign's sons, and (b) limiting the HH to the oldest son of the oldest son of the Prince of Wales [oops - editing this because I was mistaken - under the LP the oldest son of the oldest son of the Prince of Wales is an HRH. George V phased the HH out]

I suspect he didn't want a repeat of 1917 when he was confronted by the fact that an enemy combatant, the Duke of Brunswick, was also a Prince of the UK, as a male-line great-great-grandson of George III, despite the fact that his family hadn't lived in the UK in 80 years.
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  #4255  
Old 04-30-2019, 01:34 PM
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In 1948 George VI issued a letter of patent for Queen Elizabeth (then Princess Elizabeth)'s children to be born HRH Prince Charles and HRH Princess Anne, because they were female line grandchildren.

https://www.rd.com/culture/how-the-m...-their-titles/
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  #4256  
Old 04-30-2019, 02:13 PM
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Anne is the daughter of the Monarch so she is an HRH..and Pss Alexandra was the grand daughter of a monarch George V and she is HRH
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  #4257  
Old 04-30-2019, 02:18 PM
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So only the grandchildren of sons are HRH, or the children of the oldest son of pow no matter what gender. That means that princess Alexandra is not an HRH? And, the Wessex children technically are but prefer not to use it?And that p Anne’s children would not be HRH?

thank you. So any grandchildren of sons of the monarch are HRH. Like Beatrice and Eugenia but not princess annes children.
Amazing to see how many males in this family when you are trying to understand this stuff!
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  #4258  
Old 04-30-2019, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
Anne is the daughter of the Monarch so she is an HRH..and Pss Alexandra was the grand daughter of a monarch George V and she is HRH
Again, at the time of Anne's birth, her mother was not the Monarch, but Princess Elizabeth. The then Monarch George VI issued a letter of patent for Prince Elizabeth (now Queen)'s children to be born HRH Prince Charles and HRH Princess Anne. At birth Charles and Anne were female line grandchildren of George VI so letter of patent was necessary for them to be born HRH.
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  #4259  
Old 04-30-2019, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Frelinghighness View Post
So only the grandchildren of sons are HRH, or the children of the oldest son of pow no matter what gender. That means that princess Alexandra is not an HRH? And, the Wessex children technically are but prefer not to use it?And that p Anne’s children would not be HRH?
Pss Alexandra is the granddaughter of the King, via a son (Prince George, Duke of Kent), so she is HRH. The Wessex children are entitled to be HRH since Edward is a son of the Monarch's but their parents chose that they would not be so titled..and would just be Viscount severn and Lady Louise.

Anne's children are not the children of a prince.. so they take their rank from their father and he is not royal and does not have a title of nobility. So they re Mr and Miss Phillips.
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  #4260  
Old 04-30-2019, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Frelinghighness View Post
thank you. So any grandchildren of sons of the monarch are HRH. Like Beatrice and Eugenia but not princess annes children.
Amazing to see how many males in this family when you are trying to understand this stuff!
No, George V's Letters Patent (1917) limit the HRH to the following:
(1) The monarch's children
(2) The children of the monarch's sons
(3) The oldest son of the oldest son of the Prince of Wales [I goofed in my earlier post when I said this royal would have an HH]. The other grandchildren of the monarch's sons would not be HRH. They would have the style and dignity of children of a Duke (Lords and Ladies).

Before the birth of Prince George the Queen issued new Letters Patent granting the HRH to ALL of William's children. Otherwise George would be HRH Prince George but his siblings would be Lady Charlotte and Lord Louis (following #3 above).

Likewise, unless new Letters Patent are issued, Harry's children will be Lord and Ladies (his oldest son will also have the courtesy title of Earl of Dumbarton). Once Charles becomes King they will be entitled to the HRH as children of the monarch's son (#2 above).

I hope this makes sense!
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