The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #4201  
Old 04-08-2019, 08:13 AM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 1,457
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Technically the title of Duke of Cornwall can be held only by the eldest living son of the monarch who is also the heir apparent. [...] I don't know if that will change in the future with the introduction of equal primogeniture post-2011.
Quote:
Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile View Post
I was thinking about this also. The Queen is the Duke of Lancaster. The eldest living child of the monarch and therefore heir apparent should be the Duke of Cornwall no matter gender.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSH View Post
But that's not what the commenter said. The idea is that the eldest child of the monarch should be Duke of Cornwall regardless of gender, just as the monarch is Duke of Lancaster regardless of gender.

[...]

Something will have to be done in regard to that since there will be a greater likelihood of female monarchs in the future now. The Duke of Cornwall title cannot be limited to males only anymore IMO.

When the British government introduced equal primogeniture in the succession to the crown, it stated that it did not wish to introduce female succession to the duchy of Cornwall because "a huge amount of consultation would be required". I am not entirely clear about the implications of that statement, but my speculation is that the government's statement may have been implying the current Duke of Cornwall (who is consulted on legislation concerning the duchy) is opposed to it, as there were unconfirmed reports that he was opposed to introducing equal primogeniture in the succession to the crown.

My understanding is that Cornwall is considered a peerage as well as a duchy, so I am confident that a theoretical female holder would take the feminine form of the title just as other peeresses in their own right are known by the feminine forms of their titles, unless it happens far in the future and the masculine forms are by then considered gender-neutral.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #4202  
Old 04-08-2019, 08:22 AM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Bellevue, United States
Posts: 854
Quote:
Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile View Post
Yes, that is currently how it still is, a female is not Duke of Cornwall, only males. But the point Mbruno and I were making is—male primogeniture is no longer the law of the land for the monarch, so a female should be Duke of Cornwall if in the same position as a male who would be DOC.
Yes, at some point in the future Parliament might pass an act allowing female heirs to become Duchess of Cornwall in keeping with new succession rules.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #4203  
Old 04-08-2019, 08:37 AM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: alpine village, Germany
Posts: 2,292
Quote:
Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile View Post
Yes, that is currently how it still is, a female is not Duke of Cornwall, only males. But the point Mbruno and I were making is—male primogeniture is no longer the law of the land for the monarch, so a female should be Duke of Cornwall if in the same position as a male who would be DOC.

I guess if something happened to George, the queen and Charles would approach that topic for the sake of Charlotte, but thus far there is no need to change something because change always has the danger that you end up somewhere you don't want with a democratic government involved. AFAIK the queen while being just the heir presumptive, received an income from the Duchy of Cornwall through her father. And after her, it's 3 generations of male heirs, Charles, William, George (and who knows what George's first child will be). So absolutely no reason to wake sleeping dogs.
Reply With Quote
  #4204  
Old 04-08-2019, 08:40 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Norfolk, United States
Posts: 5,728
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawin View Post
Yes, at some point in the future Parliament might pass an act allowing female heirs to become Duchess of Cornwall in keeping with new succession rules.
If they are to change this, I would think they don’t have a choice but to change it for all peers to allow daughters to inherit. Then comes the question of sons and then daughters or simply first born?
Reply With Quote
  #4205  
Old 04-08-2019, 09:51 AM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 2,886
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacqui24 View Post
If they are to change this, I would think they don’t have a choice but to change it for all peers to allow daughters to inherit. Then comes the question of sons and then daughters or simply first born?
I don't see how this would be the case though. The Queen is the Duke of Lancaster because she is the monarch. The heir apparent, if the eldest child of the monarch, should be Duke of Cornwall whether male or female.

As I see it, the huge difference between the Dukedom of Cornwall and other hereditary peerages is there is a specific person who can hold the title--it cannot pass to a nephew or cousin.
Reply With Quote
  #4206  
Old 04-08-2019, 11:07 AM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Bellevue, United States
Posts: 854
Quote:
Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile View Post
I don't see how this would be the case though. The Queen is the Duke of Lancaster because she is the monarch. The heir apparent, if the eldest child of the monarch, should be Duke of Cornwall whether male or female.

As I see it, the huge difference between the Dukedom of Cornwall and other hereditary peerages is there is a specific person who can hold the title--it cannot pass to a nephew or cousin.
Agreed, the Duchy of Cornwall is a unique situation, just as succession to the crown is. And it's not just the title. A princess who's next in line should also be entitled to the duchy's revenue.
Reply With Quote
  #4207  
Old 04-08-2019, 12:02 PM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 9,228
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawin View Post
[...] A princess who's next in line should also be entitled to the duchy's revenue.
That is the current situation. The Princess Elizabeth never was Duke of Cornwall but received the revenues as if she was the Duke indeed. She received it via her father, King George, whom executed the rights in Cornwall during the 'sede vacante' in the Duchy.
Reply With Quote
  #4208  
Old 04-08-2019, 12:36 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 2,886
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
That is the current situation. The Princess Elizabeth never was Duke of Cornwall but received the revenues as if she was the Duke indeed. She received it via her father, King George, whom executed the rights in Cornwall during the 'sede vacante' in the Duchy.
But that is unfair to a woman heir apparent-a brother would automatically get the revenues. A woman heir apparent would need to rely on the graciousness, goodwill and generosity of her father (or mother.)

As far as that being the case with George VI and Elizabeth, times were vastly different 75 years ago. Additionally, Elizabeth was the heir presumptive, not the heir apparent.
Reply With Quote
  #4209  
Old 04-08-2019, 12:41 PM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 9,228
Quote:
Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile View Post
But that is unfair to a woman heir apparent-a brother would automatically get the revenues. A woman heir apparent would need to rely on the graciousness, goodwill and generosity of her father (or mother.)

As far as that being the case with George VI and Elizabeth, times were vastly different 75 years ago. Additionally, Elizabeth was the heir presumptive, not the heir apparent.
I agree. Change it like it was done with the traditional titles Prince of Orange, Prince of Asturias, Duke of Brabant: no longer for the male successor to the throne, but for the successor to the throne. But as Charles, William and George are there, no urge for modernisation, we will probably see it changed when George's firstborn is a daughter.
Reply With Quote
  #4210  
Old 04-08-2019, 01:22 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 4,921
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacqui24 View Post
If they are to change this, I would think they don’t have a choice but to change it for all peers to allow daughters to inherit. Then comes the question of sons and then daughters or simply first born?

A general rule applying to all peerages is not needed IMHO. It would suffice to change the Duchy's royal charter. I believe a royal charter can be changed without an act of Parliament, by royal prerogative only, but I leave it to the experts to confirm that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I agree. Change it like it was done with the traditional titles Prince of Orange, Prince of Asturias, Duke of Brabant: no longer for the male successor to the throne, but for the successor to the throne. But as Charles, William and George are there, no urge for modernisation, we will probably see it changed when George's firstborn is a daughter.

The title of Princess of Asturias actually has been historically available to any heir presumptive to the Spanish throne, including female heiresses. For example, two of Queen Isabella I's daughters, namely Isabella, future Queen of Portugal, and Joanna the Mad, were both Princesses of Asturias in their own right, and so was also María de las Mercedes de Borbón y Habsburgo-Lorena, the eldest daughter of King Alfonso XII and sister to King Alfonso XIII.
Reply With Quote
  #4211  
Old 04-08-2019, 01:23 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 1,457
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I agree. Change it like it was done with the traditional titles Prince of Orange, Prince of Asturias, Duke of Brabant: no longer for the male successor to the throne, but for the successor to the throne. But as Charles, William and George are there, no urge for modernisation, we will probably see it changed when George's firstborn is a daughter.
The Brabant title is different - the heir to the Belgian throne automatically becomes Duchess or Duke of Brabant only if they are the eldest child, or the eldest child of the eldest child, of the Sovereign. If Princess Elisabeth of Belgium remains childless, she will need to issue a new Royal Decree to create her brother Duke of Brabant on her accession.

I find the new rules in the Netherlands, Spain, Luxembourg, and Monaco to be more appropriate: The heir automatically receives the title regardless of gender or relation to the monarch. In the event that Prince George of Cambridge never has children of his own, Princess Charlotte will presumably perform the same duties for her brother as Prince Charles performs for his mother, and consequently would in my view deserve to bear the same titles.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawin View Post
Agreed, the Duchy of Cornwall is a unique situation, just as succession to the crown is. And it's not just the title. A princess who's next in line should also be entitled to the duchy's revenue.
The Sovereign Grant Act of 2011 ensured that the heir, regardless of having the status of heir presumptive or heir apparent, automatically receives a grant equal to the duchy revenues.

Sovereign Grant Act 2011


Quote:
Originally Posted by jacqui24 View Post
If they are to change this, I would think they don’t have a choice but to change it for all peers to allow daughters to inherit. Then comes the question of sons and then daughters or simply first born?
Eliminating gender discrimination from inheritance laws is a logical move but not a prerequisite to amending the charter of the Duchy of Cornwall. At the present time there are peerages whose letters patent allow for female inheritance (with males taking precedence) in spite of male-only inheritance being the most common rule.
Reply With Quote
  #4212  
Old 04-08-2019, 01:30 PM
Excalibur's Avatar
Gentry
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Jacksonville, Florida, United States
Posts: 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
When the British government introduced equal primogeniture in the succession to the crown, it stated that it did not wish to introduce female succession to the duchy of Cornwall because "a huge amount of consultation would be required". I am not entirely clear about the implications of that statement, but my speculation is that the government's statement may have been implying the current Duke of Cornwall (who is consulted on legislation concerning the duchy) is opposed to it, as there were unconfirmed reports that he was opposed to introducing equal primogeniture in the succession to the crown.
IIRC, Charles' objection to the Succession to the Crown Act was not the legislation itself, but rather the fact that it was being rushed through the several Parliaments, without due consideration of the full impact of the changes, especially as to how it would impact the Duchy of Cornwall. I cannot imagine that he would object to a first-born female monarch, considering that his mother is a shining example of an excellent monarch.
Reply With Quote
  #4213  
Old 04-08-2019, 02:35 PM
loonytick's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Tennessee, United States
Posts: 730
So the duchy wasn’t included in the succession change; what about the title of Prince of Wales? As it stands now, if George were to have a female heir, when he is king would he be able to (without more legal wrangling) make her Princess of Wales?
Reply With Quote
  #4214  
Old 04-08-2019, 02:40 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 1,457
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
The title of Princess of Asturias actually has been historically available to any heir presumptive to the Spanish throne, including female heiresses. For example, two of Queen Isabella I's daughters, namely Isabella, future Queen of Portugal, and Joanna the Mad, were both Princesses of Asturias in their own right, and so was also María de las Mercedes de Borbón y Habsburgo-Lorena, the eldest daughter of King Alfonso XII and sister to King Alfonso XIII.
That is true (though I don't think it has ever been conferred on an heir who was not the child of a reigning monarch or pretender before 1850), but I think the previous posters were advocating that titles of heirs be made automatic for daughters as they are with sons. While a few daughters of monarchs were indeed bestowed with the role and/or title of Princess of Asturias, the title was made automatic for heiresses (and heirs presumptive) only between 1850-1880 and after 1987.

Would it be possible to confer the title Duchess of Cornwall ad personam on an heiress even though she would not automatically receive it, similar to the way it was done for Spanish heiresses prior to 1850?

(On a tangential note, María de las Mercedes and her siblings were named "de Borbón y Austria" due to their mother being born an archduchess of Austria. The imperial family of Austria generally considered "of Austria" to be their family name, although republican governments designated them Habsburg-Lorraine. )


Quote:
Originally Posted by loonytick View Post
So the duchy wasn’t included in the succession change; what about the title of Prince of Wales? As it stands now, if George were to have a female heir, when he is king would he be able to (without more legal wrangling) make her Princess of Wales?
Per the Cameron administration, that is within the sovereign's power (see the Hansard link in my earlier post).
Reply With Quote
  #4215  
Old 04-08-2019, 04:19 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: New York, United States
Posts: 410
Quote:
Originally Posted by loonytick View Post
So the duchy wasn’t included in the succession change; what about the title of Prince of Wales? As it stands now, if George were to have a female heir, when he is king would he be able to (without more legal wrangling) make her Princess of Wales?
And when the Princess of Wales in her own right marries, does her husband become the Prince of Wales? This is where it will get tricky, since the Queen Regnant's husband doesn't become King but Prince consort (for fear that the King title would sound more powerful than the Queen regnant).
Reply With Quote
  #4216  
Old 04-08-2019, 04:42 PM
JSH JSH is offline
Gentry
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Las Vegas, United States
Posts: 51
Question: Prince Michael of Kent has no peerage title. So what is the rule governing his son being 'Lord'? Is it because his father has an HRH? Or is it because he is the grandson of a duke? Also, if he had a son, would that son be a plain Mr.?
Reply With Quote
  #4217  
Old 04-08-2019, 04:54 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 4,122
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSH View Post
Question: Prince Michael of Kent has no peerage title. So what is the rule governing his son being 'Lord'? Is it because his father has an HRH? Or is it because he is the grandson of a duke? Also, if he had a son, would that son be a plain Mr.?
as the grandson of a King, Michael has the rank of PRince and HRH. but his children are just Lord and Lady. And Frederick Windsor's children are just Mr and Miss
Reply With Quote
  #4218  
Old 04-08-2019, 04:55 PM
Roslyn's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tintenbar, Australia
Posts: 3,952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fijiro View Post
And when the Princess of Wales in her own right marries, does her husband become the Prince of Wales? This is where it will get tricky, since the Queen Regnant's husband doesn't become King but Prince consort (for fear that the King title would sound more powerful than the Queen regnant).

The husband of a Princess of Wales could be given a Dukedom like Prince Philip received and then be made Prince Consort when his spouse becomes Queen. He cannot be made Prince of Wales for the same reason the husband of a queen regnant cannot be made king. This will remain the case as long as the centuries-old tradition of a woman taking her style/status from her husband, and not the other way around, is observed in the UK. And as long as there are different names for a male and female monarch.
__________________
"That's it then. Cancel the kitchen scraps for lepers and orphans, no more merciful beheadings, -- and call off Christmas!!!"
Reply With Quote
  #4219  
Old 04-08-2019, 05:10 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 1,457
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSH View Post
Question: Prince Michael of Kent has no peerage title. So what is the rule governing his son being 'Lord'? Is it because his father has an HRH? Or is it because he is the grandson of a duke? Also, if he had a son, would that son be a plain Mr.?
The rule that great-grandchildren of a monarch in male line are styled as if they are children of Dukes is part of the 1917 Letters Patent:

Quote:
it being Our Royal Will and Pleasure that the grandchildren of the sons of any such Sovereign in the direct male line [...] shall have and enjoy in all occasions the style and title enjoyed by the children of Dukes of these Our Realms.
Yes, a son of Lord Frederick Windsor would be a plain Mr.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
This will remain the case as long as the centuries-old tradition of a woman taking her style/status from her husband, and not the other way around, is observed in the UK. And as long as there are different names for a male and female monarch.
I agree with the first prediction, which is the reason that wives of British Kings are automatically styled Queen but not vice versa, but not the second. In certain European countries surnames generally take differing masculine and feminine forms but it has nonetheless been made possible for a husband to take his surname from his wife. In Spain, the same applies to titles.
Reply With Quote
  #4220  
Old 04-08-2019, 05:17 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 4,921
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSH View Post
Question: Prince Michael of Kent has no peerage title. So what is the rule governing his son being 'Lord'? Is it because his father has an HRH? Or is it because he is the grandson of a duke? Also, if he had a son, would that son be a plain Mr.?

They are great-grandchildren of a British sovereign in male line and, as such, are entitled under the Letters Patent 1917 to the same style as that of children of a duke in the peerage of the United Kingdom.
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
british royal family, consort, duke of york, kate, princess beatrice, queenmother, spouse, styles and titles, titles uk styles


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Non-British Styles and Titles Lord Sosnowitz Royal Ceremony and Protocol 762 06-21-2019 10:43 AM
Diana's Styles and Titles florawindsor Diana, Princess of Wales (1961-1997) 886 04-11-2019 05:26 AM
Titles and Styles of Harry, his Future Wife and Children Aussie Princess The Duke and Duchess of Sussex and Family 1897 11-29-2017 03:13 AM
Styles and Titles Nahla10 Ruling Family of Dubai 50 06-02-2017 02:28 PM
Abdication Beatrix and Inauguration WA: Titles, Names, Succession, Precedence Princess Robijn King Willem-Alexander, Queen Máxima and family 67 05-24-2013 03:14 PM




Popular Tags
administrator archie mountbatten-windsor aristocracy bavaria;house;chef;luitpold;ludwig bonaparte british royal family christian ix clothes countess of wessex crown prince hussein crown prince hussein's future wife crusades current events cypher dailyfail daughters denmark duchess of sussex duchessofsussex duke of edinburgh duke of sussex family search forum french royalty friendly city germany greece harry head of the house jack brooksbank jerusalem juan carlos kiko king king philippe meghan markle member monaco royal monarchism monarchy northampton patronages prince aymeric prince charles prince harry prince laurent princess princess anne princess beatrice princess claire prince william public image public opinion queen elisabeth queen elizabeth queen mathilde rania of jordan relationship royal royal tour rumania sarah ferguson saxony south africa state visit sweden tradition trump valois viscount severn



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:02 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2019
Jelsoft Enterprises