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  #4181  
Old 04-07-2019, 10:14 AM
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Didn’t the People’s Princess thing really take off after Tony Blair’s speech after Diana’s death? Besides I really don’t think Diana would’ve minded that.

Anyways, speaking of Lady Diana. Would Diana revert back to that had she remarried?
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  #4182  
Old 04-07-2019, 10:21 AM
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I think its very possible that she would have reverted to Lady Diana, Mrs Khan if she had married Hasnat Khan or Lady Diana, Mrs. Al-Fayed or Lady Diana, Mrs. Hewitt. Once she remarried, she would no longer be eligible to use "Princess of Wales" as a courtesy styling whereas because of who her father was, she would always remain "Lady".
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  #4183  
Old 04-07-2019, 10:23 AM
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Wouldn’t she just be Lady Diana [married name] like her sisters? Instead of Lady Diana, Mrs. [married name].
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  #4184  
Old 04-07-2019, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Actually it boils down to that regardless of which "title/style" she preferred to use, they're still both courtesy titles. She was able to use "Lady" because her father was Earl Spencer. She was able to use "Princess of Wales" because her ex-husband is The Prince of Wales. She opted for the more "esteemed" courtesy title as I see it. She never held a title or style of her own.

I agree, Osipi. The words "Princess of Wales" or "Duchess of York" in the styles Diana, Princess of Wales and Sarah, Duchess of York are sometimes called "last names", but that is not truly correct. Although they are not peerage titles that grant legal rights to the holder, it would be more correct to call them courtesy titles instead of last names.

For illustration, in a hypothetical situation wherein either one went on to have another child from a subsequent relationship (with no remarriage), and she and her partner decided that their child should receive the mother's last name, I do not think the child would be e.g. "John Duchess of York", rather "John Ferguson" or perhaps "John Mountbatten-Windsor".

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Thanks, it's indeed more specific based on the situation that the expectation has been that it's the male line that will carry on the crown.
Yes, and even the expectation that every king would produce a son healthy enough to outlast him, given that even when the heir is a male-line grandson of the king, or a brother of the king, he is excluded from the duchy of Cornwall.
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  #4185  
Old 04-07-2019, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
The way I see it, Diana's courtesy title was resolved a year before she was tragically killed. She was afforded the courtesy title that denotes that she is an ex-wife of The Prince of Wales. This same courtesy title was given to not only Sarah, Duchess of York but also legally to the wives that the 9th Earl Spencer was divorced from. Its just the way it works in the UK and the British title/style system.
yes of course it was.
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  #4186  
Old 04-07-2019, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
For illustration, in a hypothetical situation wherein either one went on to have another child from a subsequent relationship (with no remarriage), and she and her partner decided that their child should receive the mother's last name, I do not think the child would be e.g. "John Duchess of York", rather "John Ferguson" or perhaps "John Mountbatten-Windsor".
I find that the use of Mountbatten-Windsor in this scenario to be questionable. Its my understanding that the Queen's will for the use of that surname is limited to her descendants that are in need of a surname to use. The declaration specifically says:

"Now therefore I declare My Will and Pleasure that, while I and My Children shall continue to be styled and known as the House and Family of Windsor, My descendants other than descendants enjoying the style, title or attribute of Royal Highness and the titular dignity of Prince or Princess and female descendants who marry and their descendants shall bear the name of Mountbatten-Windsor."

Should Sarah and a partner (not married) have a child, I seriously doubt the Queen would be pleased or amused for the child to bear the name Mountbatten-Windsor as genetically, the child would be of absolutely no blood relation to the BRF whatsoever. My guess then that the child would be (name) Ferguson.
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  #4187  
Old 04-07-2019, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post

The title Duke of Cornwall is the title automatically bestowed on the monarch's heir, so a rather important title.



Technically the title of Duke of Cornwall can be held only by the eldest living son of the monarch who is also the heir apparent. If the heir apparent happens to be for example a grandson of the monarch rather than a son, my understanding (I may be wrong) is that he doesn't become Duke of Cornwall. Likewise, an heir presumptive such as a sibling of a monarch who doesn't have any children of his own can't be the Duke of Cornwall either. The latter used to be true also for a daughter of a monarch who was an heiress presumptive (hence QEII for example was never Duchess of Cornwall herself). I don't know if that will change in the future with the introduction of equal primogeniture post-2011.
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  #4188  
Old 04-07-2019, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
I find that the use of Mountbatten-Windsor in this scenario to be questionable. Its my understanding that the Queen's will for the use of that surname is limited to her descendants that are in need of a surname to use. The declaration specifically says:

"Now therefore I declare My Will and Pleasure that, while I and My Children shall continue to be styled and known as the House and Family of Windsor, My descendants other than descendants enjoying the style, title or attribute of Royal Highness and the titular dignity of Prince or Princess and female descendants who marry and their descendants shall bear the name of Mountbatten-Windsor."

Should Sarah and a partner (not married) have a child, I seriously doubt the Queen would be pleased or amused for the child to bear the name Mountbatten-Windsor as genetically, the child would be of absolutely no blood relation to the BRF whatsoever. My guess then that the child would be (name) Ferguson.
I think the theoretical child would carry the last name of the father, married or not.

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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Technically the title of Duke of Cornwall can be held only by the eldest living son of the monarch who is also the heir apparent. If the heir apparent happens to be for example a grandson of the monarch rather than a son, my understanding (I may be wrong) is that he doesn't become Duke of Cornwall. Likewise, an heir presumptive such as a sibling of a monarch who doesn't have any children of his own can't be the Duke of Cornwall either. The latter used to be true also for a daughter of a monarch who was an heiress presumptive (hence QEII for example was never Duchess of Cornwall herself). I don't know if that will change in the future with the introduction of equal primogeniture post-2011.
I was thinking about this also. The Queen is the Duke of Lancaster. The eldest living child of the monarch and therefore heir apparent should be the Duke of Cornwall no matter gender.
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  #4189  
Old 04-07-2019, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile View Post
I was thinking about this also. The Queen is the Duke of Lancaster. The eldest living child of the monarch and therefore heir apparent should be the Duke of Cornwall no matter gender.
but that's not the case. The queen was not Duchess of Cornwall..

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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
I think its very possible that she would have reverted to Lady Diana, Mrs Khan if she had married Hasnat Khan or Lady Diana, Mrs. Al-Fayed or Lady Diana, Mrs. Hewitt. Once she remarried, she would no longer be eligible to use "Princess of Wales" as a courtesy styling whereas because of who her father was, she would always remain "Lady".
She would have been Lady Diana Surname of her husband, not "Lady Diana Mrs Surname
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  #4190  
Old 04-07-2019, 11:47 AM
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As a recent example within the family is Lady Davina still known as Lady Davina Lewis or did she return to being Lady Davina Winsor (I assume the first)
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  #4191  
Old 04-07-2019, 12:01 PM
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As a recent example within the family is Lady Davina still known as Lady Davina Lewis or did she return to being Lady Davina Winsor (I assume the first)
I assume she is using her married name, the same name as her children
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  #4192  
Old 04-07-2019, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by AdmirerUS View Post
As I recall it, there was this whole thing in the tabloids of the time about her being "The People's Princess." It was very awkward and I think even she recognized it. That moniker implied so many things:
-Sod off Charles, you can divorce her but we will love her even when you don't. In fact a lot of the public found her more princess than they found him Prince-like.
-The corollary to that which is that the BRF cannot unmake a princess if we, the public don't ascent
-She is OURS - meaning she is a belonging/puppet/plaything of the public. I always thought Di wanted the Admiration of the public but thought the kind of all access pass that was in effect at the time to be a bridge too far. She did not want to be dictated to by anyone at the time of the divorce.
I've always believed (and let's not go off topic and chase this on this thread) that the whole thing was just so very awkward for the BRF and Di, that the eventual Camilla/not Queen decision happened because the whole mess with Di's title had been usurped by the public.
Her Majesty's Royal Will simply could not be imposed on this situation and that must have been difficult, indeed.
Ugly times back then.
The term 'people's princess' didn't exist in her life time. It was a term coined by Tony Blair after she died.
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  #4193  
Old 04-07-2019, 12:38 PM
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The term 'people's princess' didn't exist in her life time. It was a term coined by Tony Blair after she died.
True but the term was used a few times about Princess Anne in the 80s
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  #4194  
Old 04-07-2019, 12:50 PM
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True but the term was used a few times about Princess Anne in the 80s
was it? I have never heard it used of anyone but Diana...….
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  #4195  
Old 04-07-2019, 01:16 PM
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was it? I have never heard it used of anyone but Diana...….
I've seen newspaper articles where it's used. It didn't stick though.
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  #4196  
Old 04-07-2019, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
I think its very possible that she would have reverted to Lady Diana, Mrs Khan if she had married Hasnat Khan or Lady Diana, Mrs. Al-Fayed or Lady Diana, Mrs. Hewitt. Once she remarried, she would no longer be eligible to use "Princess of Wales" as a courtesy styling whereas because of who her father was, she would always remain "Lady".
You mean: Lady Diana Khan or Lady Diana Al-Fayed or Lady Diana Hewitt.
No "Mrs".

See Lady Sarah Chatto, Lady Davina Lewis, Lady Rose Gilman but also see Diana's sisters Lady Sarah McCorquodale and Lady Jane Fellowes.

No use of "Mrs". Only Lady [first name] [spouse's surname].
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  #4197  
Old 04-07-2019, 01:29 PM
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Got it and have checked off my "learn something new today box". Thanks to those that have corrected me.
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  #4198  
Old 04-07-2019, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile View Post
I think the theoretical child would carry the last name of the father, married or not.
Osipi was commenting in answer to my statement about what surname the theoretical child would carry in a scenario where they took their surname from their mother instead of their father.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
I find that the use of Mountbatten-Windsor in this scenario to be questionable. Its my understanding that the Queen's will for the use of that surname is limited to her descendants that are in need of a surname to use. The declaration specifically says:

"Now therefore I declare My Will and Pleasure that, while I and My Children shall continue to be styled and known as the House and Family of Windsor, My descendants other than descendants enjoying the style, title or attribute of Royal Highness and the titular dignity of Prince or Princess and female descendants who marry and their descendants shall bear the name of Mountbatten-Windsor."

Should Sarah and a partner (not married) have a child, I seriously doubt the Queen would be pleased or amused for the child to bear the name Mountbatten-Windsor as genetically, the child would be of absolutely no blood relation to the BRF whatsoever. My guess then that the child would be (name) Ferguson.
In reality, the queen's feelings would most likely be respected, and in any case Sarah/Diana would probably have remarried if they had wished to have further children after divorce.

But legally, the question is another permutation of the hypothetical that was addressed in this thread several days ago regarding Eugenie's legal name. After some reflection, I agree with Roslyn that the wording of the declaration allows different understandings of it to be at least arguable.
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  #4199  
Old 04-08-2019, 12:20 AM
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but that's not the case. The queen was not Duchess of Cornwall..

But that's not what the commenter said. The idea is that the eldest child of the monarch should be Duke of Cornwall regardless of gender, just as the monarch is Duke of Lancaster regardless of gender.



Something will have to be done in regard to that since there will be a greater likelihood of female monarchs in the future now. The Duke of Cornwall title cannot be limited to males only anymore IMO.
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  #4200  
Old 04-08-2019, 07:31 AM
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but that's not the case. The queen was not Duchess of Cornwall.
Yes, that is currently how it still is, a female is not Duke of Cornwall, only males. But the point Mbruno and I were making is—male primogeniture is no longer the law of the land for the monarch, so a female should be Duke of Cornwall if in the same position as a male who would be DOC.
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