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  #4101  
Old 01-28-2019, 01:53 PM
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The title traditionally goes to the youngest son of the Sovereign. So when Andrew dies it would be available to give out again. Personally I suspect the first person it could go to next is Prince Louis in time.
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  #4102  
Old 01-28-2019, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by QueenEmpath View Post
What will happen to title of Duke of York after Prince Andrew's death? It's obvious neither Beatrice and Eugenie nor their Children can inherit this Dukedom

Since there is no legal heir, the title will become extinct when the current Duke passes away.



Under recent custom, British princes are normally given a dukedom when they get married. Assuming Prince Louis gets married after his great-uncle is deceased, he may be given the title of Duke of York. Prince Andrew is only 58 though, so it is perfectly possible he will still be alive 30-35 years from now when Louis probably will get married (based on the average age of marriage for royals nowadays). If the title of Duke of York is not available yet and William is already King when Louis marries, then Louis may be given his father's former title of Duke of Cambridge, which will have merged with the Crown by then.
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  #4103  
Old 01-28-2019, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
The title traditionally goes to the youngest son of the Sovereign. So when Andrew dies it would be available to give out again. Personally I suspect the first person it could go to next is Prince Louis in time.
I assume you mean second son instead of youngest son. Neither the current duke of York nor his grandfather were youngest sons.
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  #4104  
Old 01-28-2019, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
I assume you mean second son instead of youngest son. Neither the current duke of York nor his grandfather were youngest sons.
Same for Prince Andrew's great-grandfather, George V. He also was a second son (although the eldest living son at the time the Dukedom of York was conferred upon him in 1892).
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  #4105  
Old 02-22-2019, 10:00 AM
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So when are we expected to hear if baby Sussex will be a Prince or Princess?
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  #4106  
Old 02-22-2019, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
So when are we expected to hear if baby Sussex will be a Prince or Princess?
At the time of birth?
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  #4107  
Old 02-22-2019, 11:06 AM
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At the time of birth?
No, I mean when are we’re going to get a letters patent on their title of prince or princess?
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  #4108  
Old 02-22-2019, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
No, I mean when are we’re going to get a letters patent on their title of prince or princess?
I'm not sure that's going to happen. I think they'll just leave it until Charles is King. Who knows, I may be wrong.
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  #4109  
Old 02-22-2019, 11:18 AM
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To be honest, I'd be very surprised if there are any LP's issued. I think we're much more likely to see the baby styled as the child of a duke rather than as a prince/princess and I'm not even really convinced that that will change when Charles becomes king. I know that technically it's supposed to but I wouldn't be one bit surprised to see the Sussexes decide that they'd rather their children not carry prince/princess titles at all and I think Charles would respect their wishes in that respect.
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  #4110  
Old 02-22-2019, 12:08 PM
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I too think that the Sussex child/ren will be styled as the offspring of a Ducal couple, principally at the behest of their parents, but also because they are unlikely EVER to be 'working Royals' and will have 'to make their own way in the World'...
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  #4111  
Old 02-22-2019, 12:29 PM
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I also think that the Sussex kids will be known as children of a duke for their lifetime which brings me to ask a question. If they're titled and styled as such and not HRH and working for the "Firm" would it make it more acceptable to retain dual citizenship throughout their lives?
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  #4112  
Old 02-23-2019, 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
If they're titled and styled as such and not HRH and working for the "Firm" would it make it more acceptable to retain dual citizenship throughout their lives?
Not particularly, in my view. They will be great-grand children of the current monarch, grand children of the next King, so IMO, foreign nationalities will not be acceptable. Whilst the children themselves are unlikely to be working royals, their parents are working royals, and very much at the heart of the royal family. These children will grow up in royal palaces, with royal privileges and the royal machine around them; those perks will be unacceptable for foreigners.
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  #4113  
Old 02-23-2019, 03:13 AM
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Thanks for the perspective, Muriel. Basically then the Sussex children will be facing the same conundrum as the York girls are now. They'll live in a in-between world.
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  #4114  
Old 02-23-2019, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
No, I mean when are we’re going to get a letters patent on their title of prince or princess?
Given how close we are to the birth - about two months to go - it is highly unlikely that Her Majesty is going to issue such LPs.

She issued them for William and Kate's children, largely because the first born, regardless of gender would be the future monarch and it would look bad if the first child had been a girl but born Lady Charlotte Mountbatten-Windsor while a second born was a son who would have been born HRH Prince George of Cambridge. She had to make a decision, remove HRH from all the Cambridge children, give it to all the Cambridge children or let the status quo exist. She chose to give HRH from birth to all the children of the future King.

She appears to be taking the view that the children of the spare don't warrant that distinction. Harry is now 6th in the line of succession and at his highest was the same place as Edward was at his highest so having Harry's children follow Edward's example makes sense - Lord and Lady for Harry's children during her reign.
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  #4115  
Old 02-23-2019, 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Given how close we are to the birth - about two months to go - it is highly unlikely that Her Majesty is going to issue such LPs.

She issued them for William and Kate's children, largely because the first born, regardless of gender would be the future monarch and it would look bad if the first child had been a girl but born Lady Charlotte Mountbatten-Windsor while a second born was a son who would have been born HRH Prince George of Cambridge. She had to make a decision, remove HRH from all the Cambridge children, give it to all the Cambridge children or let the status quo exist. She chose to give HRH from birth to all the children of the future King.

She appears to be taking the view that the children of the spare don't warrant that distinction. Harry is now 6th in the line of succession and at his highest was the same place as Edward was at his highest so having Harry's children follow Edward's example makes sense - Lord and Lady for Harry's children during her reign.
I think that is right. It is clear that Harry's children are unlikely to be working members of the BRF or be central to the BRF, and therefore, will not warrant the rewriting of rules.
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  #4116  
Old 02-23-2019, 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Thanks for the perspective, Muriel. Basically then the Sussex children will be facing the same conundrum as the York girls are now. They'll live in a in-between world.

Beatrice and Eugenie were born HRHs though, which will not be the case for the Sussex baby.



I still think, however, that Harry's children will be HRHs (in accordance with the 1917 LPs) when Charles is King. Given that Harry is Charles's only other son, stripping Harry's children of princely status would be too much of a departure from tradition for grandchildren of a sovereign in male line.
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  #4117  
Old 02-23-2019, 05:56 AM
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We already had the grandchildren of the sovereign in the male line who have been stripped of their princely status by the use of The Queen's Will - Louise and James. They are as much the male line grandchildren of the Queen as are William, Harry, Beatrice and Eugenie but they were stripped.

If the rumours about Charles wanting a smaller royal family are actually true then he needs to start within his own branch of the family and that means staring with Harry's children - and then in time neither Charlotte's nor Louis' children have HRH either.
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  #4118  
Old 02-23-2019, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
No, I mean when are we’re going to get a letters patent on their title of prince or princess?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Given how close we are to the birth - about two months to go - it is highly unlikely that Her Majesty is going to issue such LPs.
No matter what the child's eventual styles will be, is is not a possibility that they will be put forward with an announcement of the Queen's Will instead of issuance of Letters Patent?

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Originally Posted by muriel View Post
Not particularly, in my view. They will be great-grand children of the current monarch, grand children of the next King, so IMO, foreign nationalities will not be acceptable. Whilst the children themselves are unlikely to be working royals, their parents are working royals, and very much at the heart of the royal family. These children will grow up in royal palaces, with royal privileges and the royal machine around them; those perks will be unacceptable for foreigners.
But the decision for someone who has only foreign nationality to be a working royal with royal privileges has already been fully accepted by the British public. In light of that, I would expect dual British-foreign nationality for grandchildren who are not working royals to be accepted as well.

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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
We already had the grandchildren of the sovereign in the male line who have been stripped of their princely status by the use of The Queen's Will - Louise and James. They are as much the male line grandchildren of the Queen as are William, Harry, Beatrice and Eugenie but they were stripped.
Furthermore, it was an even more acute departure from tradition to give the children of one younger son of the sovereign a different status than the children of another younger son of the sovereign, his brother.
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  #4119  
Old 02-23-2019, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
We already had the grandchildren of the sovereign in the male line who have been stripped of their princely status by the use of The Queen's Will - Louise and James. They are as much the male line grandchildren of the Queen as are William, Harry, Beatrice and Eugenie but they were stripped.

True, but Edward was the Queen's third son, unlike Harry who will be the King's only other son besides the heir to the throne. Furthermore, Edward reportedly asked the Queen to have his children styled only as children of an earl in the peerage (technically, they are still princes to me, although I know that is controversial). In any case, the point is that we don't know if Harry and Meghan would actually prefer that their children are not HRHs (as Edward and Sophie allegedly did), or if Charles would deny them princely status (departing from precedent) without Harry and Meghan asking for it.


Charles is not likely to have that many grandchildren. Wiliam and Kate may or may not have another kid and I don't see Harry and Meghan having a particularly big family, especially given Meghan's age. It would be perfectly possible to make all of his grandchildren HRHs and still have a "slimmed down" Royal House.


EDIT: A possible compromise would be to do as in Denmark and just downgrade Harry's children to HHs, but that would be silly in my opinion and ineffective (a prince is a prince in people's mind, whether he is an HRH, HH or HSH).
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  #4120  
Old 02-23-2019, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
True, but Edward was the Queen's third son, unlike Harry who will be the King's only other son besides the heir to the throne. Furthermore, Edward reportedly asked the Queen to have his children styled only as children of an earl in the peerage (technically, they are still princes to me, although I know that is controversial). In any case, the point is that we don't know if Harry and Meghan would actually prefer that their children are not HRHs (as Edward and Sophie allegedly did), or if Charles would deny them princely status (departing from precedent) without Harry and Meghan asking for it.


Charles is not likely to have that many grandchildren. Wiliam and Kate may or may not have another kid and I don't see Harry and Meghan having a particularly big family, especially given Meghan's age. It would be perfectly possible to make all of his grandchildren HRHs and still have a "slimmed down" Royal House.
Even if Harry and Meghan had only 2 children, the number of royal grandchildren would exceed the number of royal grandchildren of the queen. So, no slimming down at all. Even awarding a RH to Harry's eldest child results in an equal number.

To me it is irrelevant that Charles has only 2 sons. Because first of all, a younger son is a younger son, no reason to treat one fifferently than the other. The queen's second child's children are even not titled at all... In addition, when Edward married the queen had 4 royal grandchildren. Charles already has 3.

Moreover, it would be smart to continue the precedent set by the queen with Edward in no longer awarding RH to children of younger children as that would also solve an issue in the next generation with Charlotte's children being higher in line than Louis's. The likelyhood that this child will be born as a greatgrandchild of the monarch (so no right to RH from birth) makes it even easier to continue on that path.
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