The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #4041  
Old 01-08-2019, 11:40 AM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLV View Post
Is there a reason that the Prime minister was choosen? Would that mean that if W&C would divorce now, that PM May would be a guardian?
The rule as I understand it concerns the grand children of the sovereign. As of now, DoC's children are not concerned since they are great grandchildren of the sovereign. It is Charles once King who will have custody of his grandchildren. As for why Sir John Major was chosen, I don't know, only Charles and the Queen know
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #4042  
Old 01-08-2019, 12:56 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: New York, United States
Posts: 258
All these explanations are very interesting; and also very confusing for me.

So, this is how I understand it, the Sovereign has custody of his/her descendants, in this case, HMQueen has custody of Charles, Anne, Andrew, Edward, and all their descendants, i.e. all the Mountbatten-Windsors .
When Charles becomes King, he will have custody of William, Harry, and all their descendants; and eventually when William becomes King, he will have custody of George, Charlotte, Louis, and all their descendants

IMO John Major was probably chosen because it was such a contentious divorce/separation that a selection of a third party was the way to go. Just an opinion!
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #4043  
Old 01-08-2019, 01:13 PM
Lilyflo's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Devon, United Kingdom
Posts: 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLV View Post
Is there a reason that the Prime minister was choosen? Would that mean that if W&C would divorce now, that PM May would be a guardian?
Sir John Major wasn't PM when Diana died but he had been for the previous 6 years so I presume the weekly meetings with the Queen had given her an insight into his suitability for the role (she might have thought differently had she known about his scandalous affair that only came to light in 2002).
Reply With Quote
  #4044  
Old 01-08-2019, 01:27 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 4,533
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilyflo View Post
Sir John Major wasn't PM when Diana died but he had been for the previous 6 years so I presume the weekly meetings with the Queen had given her an insight into his suitability for the role (she might have thought differently had she known about his scandalous affair that only came to light in 2002).
He was appointed a Knight of the Garter in 2005, i.e. after his extramarital affair had come to light. I would assume then that his affair becoming public didnít shake Her Majestyís confidence in him.
Reply With Quote
  #4045  
Old 01-08-2019, 01:28 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 156
I don't understand what is so complicated to understand. Absent this rule Parents (sovereign included) have custody of their minor children
So when they were minors, logically the sovereign have custody of his children.
His the case of the Queen, she and her husband had custody of her children from 1952 until their majority.
The rule came about in the 1700's when King George I had a disagreement with his son the then Prince of Wales. It was then ruled that the sovereign has custody of all his grandchildren.

According to this rule, from 1947 to 1952, King George VI had custody of Charles and Anne.
The Queen had custody of her grandchildren when they were minors
Peter Phillips, Zara Phillips, Prince William, Prince Harry, Princess Beatrice, Princess Eugenie, and according to this rule she still has custody of Lady Louise Windsor, and James Viscount Severn since they are still minors.

When he is King, Charles will have custody of his minor grandchildren
Prince George, Princess Charlotte, Prince Louis, Baby Sussex, and any other grandchildren

When William is King, he will have custody of his minor grandchildren, ie
George's children, charlotte's children, louis' children, and any other future children's children

Unless the rule is somehow repealed

Again as I understand it it only concerns the sovereign grandchildren, not all the sovereign's descendant
Reply With Quote
  #4046  
Old 01-08-2019, 01:35 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: New York, United States
Posts: 258
Quote:
Originally Posted by alvinking View Post
I don't understand what is so complicated to understand. Absent this rule Parents (sovereign included) have custody of their minor children
So when they were minors, logically the sovereign have custody of his children.
His the case of the Queen, she and her husband had custody of her children from 1952 until their majority.
The rule came about in the 1700's when King George I had a disagreement with his son the then Prince of Wales. It was then ruled that the sovereign has custody of all his grandchildren.

According to this rule, from 1947 to 1952, King George VI had custody of Charles and Anne.
The Queen had custody of her grandchildren when they were minors
Peter Phillips, Zara Phillips, Prince William, Prince Harry, Princess Beatrice, Princess Eugenie, and according to this rule she still has custody of Lady Louise Windsor, and James Viscount Severn since they are still minors.

When he is King, Charles will have custody of his minor grandchildren
Prince George, Princess Charlotte, Prince Louis, Baby Sussex, and any other grandchildren

When William is King, he will have custody of his minor grandchildren, ie
George's children, charlotte's children, louis' children, and any other future children's children

Unless the rule is somehow repealed

Again as I understand it it only concerns the sovereign grandchildren, not all the sovereign's descendant
Thank you Alvinking - now I get it.
Reply With Quote
  #4047  
Old 01-08-2019, 01:55 PM
Lilyflo's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Devon, United Kingdom
Posts: 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
He was appointed a Knight of the Garter in 2005, i.e. after his extramarital affair had come to light. I would assume then that his affair becoming public didnít shake Her Majestyís confidence in him.
Perhaps 8 years of service as the boys' guardian also earned him the honour, besides being an ex PM (previous PMs had been appointed KG).
Reply With Quote
  #4048  
Old 01-08-2019, 02:32 PM
Somebody's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Somewhere, Suriname
Posts: 2,750
Quote:
Ten out of 12 judges ruled that the "king's right of supervision extended to his grandchildren and this right of right belongs to His Majesty, King of the Realm,*even during their father's lifetime."
Given that the ruling specifically referred to 'their father's lifetime', a case could be made that the queen only has/had custody of her maleline grandchildren. This would be consistent with only maleline grandchildren receiving titles.

So, I doubt that the queen ever had custody over the private citizens Peter and Zara who happened to be her grandchildren.
Reply With Quote
  #4049  
Old 01-10-2019, 02:03 AM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 12,093
Quote:
Originally Posted by alvinking View Post
There is no legal modern interpretation to be known. The rules has been used many time legally. Like it was discussed in another thread. There was no legal custody settlements for the children during the divorce, of Anne, Charles, and Andrew, only private agreements between the parties. Diana's will stated that she wanted her brother Charles Earl spencer and one of her sisters to be legal Guardians of her children, this stipulation was overruled and the Queen appointed Sir john Major as a legal guardian of William and Harry. It is he and his team who dealt with all financial matters regarding Diana's succession
If you actually read Diana's will it says she wanted them as guardian of her children IF both she and Charles were deceased not while Charles was still alive. She couldn't appoint a guardian of her children while their other parent was living.

CNN - Diana's Will: The full text - March 4, 1998

SHOULD any child of mine be under age at the date of the death of the survivor of myself and my husband I APPOINT my mother and my brother EARL SPENCER to be the guardians of that child and I express the wish that should I predecease my husband and he will consult with my mother with regard to the upbringing in education and welfare of our children.

She is very clear - she was appointing guardians if she was the second of the parents to die not the first. If she was first she wanted Charles to consult with her mother over their upbringing and education. Whether he did so we don't know. She didn't include her brother in any decision making if Charles survived her.
Reply With Quote
  #4050  
Old 01-13-2019, 05:40 AM
wbenson's Avatar
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: -, United States
Posts: 2,478
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spheno View Post
Custody of royal grandchildren
Royal Musings: Custody of royal grandchildren

But we don't know exact situation with royal great-grandchildren. Of course king Charles will be legal custodian of all Harry's children.
I'm extremely skeptical that this ruling is still good law after three centuries of changes in family law.
Reply With Quote
  #4051  
Old 01-13-2019, 05:48 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 4,533
Quote:
Originally Posted by wbenson View Post
I'm extremely skeptical that this ruling is still good law after three centuries of changes in family law.

The same thought actually crossed my mind. Judicial precedent is superseded by statutory law so modern acts of Parliament regulating child custody should overrule an 18th century court ruling, even if it involves royal prerogative. Keep in mind that, in the UK, Parliament can also take away royal prerogatives by law since, as affirmed in 1688, Parliament is sovereign.



I suppose that, if a custody dispute had arisen in William's or Harry's case, or should a dispute arise involving Meghan's children, the UK courts would have to reconsider the matter and the 18th century decision could be overturned.
Reply With Quote
  #4052  
Old 01-13-2019, 11:04 AM
Nobility
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: New York, United States
Posts: 258
Harry&Meghan's children will have a dual citizenship?
Reply With Quote
  #4053  
Old 01-13-2019, 02:13 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 1,215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fijiro View Post
Harry&Meghan's children will have a dual citizenship?
Yes.

https://www.uscis.gov/policymanual/H...-Chapter3.html
B. Child Born in Wedlock [6]

[...]

3. Child of U.S. Citizen Parent and Foreign National Parent [9]

A child born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions acquires citizenship at birth if at the time of birth:

ēOne parent is a foreign national and the other parent is a U.S. citizen; and

ēThe U.S. citizen parent was physically present in the United States for at least 5 years, including at least 2 years after 14 years of age.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Given that the ruling specifically referred to 'their father's lifetime', a case could be made that the queen only has/had custody of her maleline grandchildren. This would be consistent with only maleline grandchildren receiving titles.
My assumption was that the 1717 ruling was specifically about "their father" because only custody of the king's son's children was at issue in the legal proceedings. His daughter was the queen consort of Prussia and it seems unlikely that she and her children were concerned in that court case.
Reply With Quote
  #4054  
Old 01-13-2019, 02:31 PM
Lumutqueen's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Middlewich, United Kingdom
Posts: 19,590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Yes.



https://www.uscis.gov/policymanual/H...-Chapter3.html


B. Child Born in Wedlock [6]



[...]



3. Child of U.S. Citizen Parent and Foreign National Parent [9]



A child born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions acquires citizenship at birth if at the time of birth:



ēOne parent is a foreign national and the other parent is a U.S. citizen; and



ēThe U.S. citizen parent was physically present in the United States for at least 5 years, including at least 2 years after 14 years of age.

I donít think thatís going to be so for the children of a member of the royal family. There will be all sorts of issues.
__________________
We Will Remember Them.
Reply With Quote
  #4055  
Old 01-13-2019, 02:36 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 1,215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
I donít think thatís going to be so for the children of a member of the royal family. There will be all sorts of issues.
But how would an exception be pursued, given that the British royal family has no jurisdiction over American citizenship law?
Reply With Quote
  #4056  
Old 01-13-2019, 02:45 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 4,533
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
But how would an exception be pursued, given that the British royal family has no jurisdiction over American citizenship law?

In any case, I am pretty sure the Sussex kids will renounce their US citizenship as adults. Even a politician like Boris Johnson did it. I would expect a prince or princess of the United Kingdom to do the same.


Meghan IMHO, unless she gets an early divorce (which is unlikely), will probably renounce her US citizenship too.


BTW, I think there is a special forum for this topic, isn't there ?
Reply With Quote
  #4057  
Old 01-13-2019, 04:47 PM
Lumutqueen's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Middlewich, United Kingdom
Posts: 19,590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
But how would an exception be pursued, given that the British royal family has no jurisdiction over American citizenship law?


I donít think itís a case for an exception, I donít think theyíll hold dual citizenship from birth. There is I imagine a legal way around this for royals that we donít know about.
__________________
We Will Remember Them.
Reply With Quote
  #4058  
Old 01-13-2019, 05:12 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: New York, United States
Posts: 258
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
I don’t think it’s a case for an exception, I don’t think they’ll hold dual citizenship from birth. There is I imagine a legal way around this for royals that we don’t know about.
The American citizenship law, the Sussex child(ren) will have dual- British/American citizen(s) by birth through their mother who is an American citizen at the time of their birth. He/she/they can renounce their American citizenship by their 18th birthday. Since they'll probably not be prince/princess or working royals, they'll probably keep it.
Reply With Quote
  #4059  
Old 01-13-2019, 05:17 PM
Somebody's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Somewhere, Suriname
Posts: 2,750
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
I donít think itís a case for an exception, I donít think theyíll hold dual citizenship from birth. There is I imagine a legal way around this for royals that we donít know about.
But wouldn't that count as an exception. The easiest way would have been to grant Meghan British citizenship so she could renounce her American citizenship. As they explicitly stated she would not do that but follow the normal procedure the logical consequence is that her children will be American as well.

Related to this issue, I still think she should have been granted citizenship based on the fact that from the moment she got married she was expected to represent the UK. So, on what passport is she currently travelling? The UK cannot give her a diplomatic passport and she does not occupy an American position that would qualify for a diplomatic passport either. Nonetheless, I expect her to be travelling on a diplomatic passport somehow, so if that is indeed the case the messags of 'all normal procedure apply to her as well, no exceptions are made' is misleading. As a member of the royal family she enjoys certain privileges, so best to be open about it instead of conceal it.
Reply With Quote
  #4060  
Old 01-13-2019, 05:33 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Norfolk, United States
Posts: 5,105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
I donít think itís a case for an exception, I donít think theyíll hold dual citizenship from birth. There is I imagine a legal way around this for royals that we donít know about.
Itís unlikely. Prince Albert renounced his US citizenship as an adult since Princess Grace remained a US citizen. Baby Sussex will be a US citizen from birth unless they now all of sudden decides to fast track Meghanís British citizenship and have her renounce her US citizenship before birth. I highly doubt this would happen, but thatís why some of us though her citizenship would be granted at the time of marriage. Given her age, I would expect dual citizenship for any children they might have. Which isnít a bad thing for them when they get older in terms of leading a private life.

The US law doesnít care if someone is a foreign royal or not. It applies to everyone that falls into these categories. And by the requirements outlined, any Sussex children would be US citizens from birth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
In any case, I am pretty sure the Sussex kids will renounce their US citizenship as adults. Even a politician like Boris Johnson did it. I would expect a prince or princess of the United Kingdom to do the same.


?
I wouldnít be so sure about that. It would depend on where they choose to lead their lives and what is the best solution for their lives. Boris Johnson renounced his US citizenship because of tax implications. However, none of us know if itís a guarantee that Sussex child(ren) would chose to live in UK as adults.
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
british royal family, consort, duke of york, kate, princess beatrice, queenmother, spouse, styles and titles, titles uk styles


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Diana's Styles and Titles florawindsor Diana, Princess of Wales (1961-1997) 886 01-09-2019 06:12 AM
Titles and Styles of Harry, his Future Wife and Children Aussie Princess The Duke and Duchess of Sussex 1897 11-29-2017 03:13 AM
Styles and Titles Nahla10 Ruling Family of Dubai 50 06-02-2017 02:28 PM
Non-British Styles and Titles Lord Sosnowitz Royal Ceremony and Protocol 735 01-30-2017 01:39 PM
Abdication Beatrix and Inauguration WA: Titles, Names, Succession, Precedence Princess Robijn King Willem-Alexander, Queen MŠxima and family 67 05-24-2013 03:14 PM




Popular Tags
"chinese gordon" bavaria;house;chef;luitpold;ludwig belgian bonaparte british royal family britishroyals camilla ceremony clothes corruption countess of wessex current events daughter daughters duchessofcambridge duchess of cornwall duchess of sussex duke of cambridge duke of sussex duke of york england extramarital affairs fashion french royalty friendly city greece harry hohenzollern infanta cristina juan carlos kate middleton kiko king ladies-in-waiting meghan markle monogram northampton osborn patronages prince harry prince harry of wales prince laurent prince of belgium princess anne princess claire public opinion queen elizabeth quizz rania of jordan royal royal geneology royal ladies royal wedding sarah duchess of york savoy saxony siblings soldier south africa state visit the crown tiara titles uk styles valois van belgiŽ viscount severn wedding windsor windsor castle windsor wedding



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:11 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2019
Jelsoft Enterprises