Questions about British Styles and Titles 1: Ending 2022


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His daughti shouldn't be guilty by association at all, but things would be more clear cut if the HRH title was only for working royals. Why should Beatrice, Eugeie and Prince Michael fir example be HRH, yet Harry, Meghan and Andrew aren't?

Harry and Meghan are - they can't use HRH for commercial purposes anymore than Beatrice or Eugenie can.

Even Andrew is still HRH but can't use it.

Until the Queen issues Letters Patent to formally strip them of HRH Prince/Princess they still hold them but three have been asked to not use them when making money and the other has been asked to not use it at all. There is a difference.

The Sussexes also have been asked and agreed not to use HRH at all.

https://www.royal.uk/statement-her-majesty-queen-0

"The Sussexes will not use their HRH titles as they are no longer working members of the Royal Family."​

But indeed, Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie do not use HRH, nor any of their other titles, commercially. Their professional names are Beatrice York and Eugenie York.


He isn't Andrew Windsor. He is at least His Grace The Duke of York.

The Duke and Duchess of Sussex have not styled themselves His or Her Grace and I think it is unlikely that the Duke of York will do so.
 
Given that they still ARE royal highnesses it would be rather weird for them to style themselves as 'his/her grace', as they aren't... Just omitting it - as is currently done, makes more sense to me.
 
My guess is that once the title reverts to the crown upon Andrew's death, it won't be recreated again until Louis reaches his majority and gets married. He does hold the spot of the second son when William becomes the monarch.

King James II was created Duke of York as the second son of Charles I and, as king, was later deposed in the revolution of 1688 for his alleged absolutist tendencies in addition to his Catholic faith. That did not prevent the title, however, from being recreated later for other second-born sons of British monarchs, including the future Kings George V and George VI, and now Prince Andrew. I believe the tradition will be maintained regardless of the veredict in Andrew's lawsuit, but, in any case, whether Andrew keeps the dukedom or it is forfeited, it will not be recreated as long as Andrew is still alive, and he may well be by the time Prince Louis (the natural next candidate to the title) gets married.

If the norms of lifespan and marriage in the current BRF hold for Andrew and Louis respectively, it is quite likely that Andrew will be alive when Louis marries.

I find it interesting that although many BRF observers regard the family as highly valuing tradition, it seems to be universally taken for granted that Elizabeth's nontraditional choice to wait until princes' marriages to create peerages for them will be continued in future reigns and become a new tradition.

Personally, I hope future monarchs will revert to the old tradition, or even better, introduce a new precedent of creating royal peerages either at birth or on coming of age. In today's media climate, I think that no matter the correct protocol, it is unrealistic to expect the public to adopt a completely new style for a royal after he has lived for decades in the public eye. The Queen's elderly cousins are normally correctly called the Duke of Gloucester and the Duke of Kent by the public and in the media, but her sons are commonly called Prince Andrew and Prince Edward as much as Duke of York and Earl of Wessex, and her grandsons are evidently better known to the general public as Prince William and Prince Harry than as Duke of Cambridge and Duke of Sussex, since both have used Prince instead of Duke in international contexts for the name recognition.


The MP for York Central and the member of the York City Council should know that the Duke cannot legally "relinquish" his peerage. As far as I understand, people who succeed to a hereditary peerage may, under the Peerage Act 1963, disclaim the peerage within one year of succeeding thereto. I don't think the aforementioned act applies, however, to newly created peerages such as the Duke's and, in any case, Prince Andrew has been the Duke of York since 1986, so the act could not apply to him anyway.

That is quite true. But I am not sure the two politicians are necessarily ignorant of the law. In law, the dukedom cannot be unilaterally relinquished, but if the Duke petitioned Parliament to act on his hypothetical will to relinquish, I suspect his request would be accepted without too much fuss. In contrast, a bill to strip the dukedom without his consent would probably be much more controversial (not so much out of concern for Andrew but because of the precedents it would establish).


Traditionally they didn't precede their younger brothers in the line of succession.That has changed so the tradition of giving peerage titles to sons but not daughters should change accordingly, just as the BRF as abandoned other outdated traditions (arranged marriages, for example).

I wholeheartedly agree. Unfortunately, there is the legitimate argument that, since all British governments thus far have clung to maintaining a (nearly) male-only hereditary peerage, the monarch granting hereditary peerages to female members of the royal family could easily be perceived as taking a political stance.

However, I see nothing stopping the BRF from abandoning some other outdated traditions (e.g., the insistence on addressing women by their husbands' first and last names whether they like it or not).
 
I wholeheartedly agree. Unfortunately, there is the legitimate argument that, since all British governments thus far have clung to maintaining a (nearly) male-only hereditary peerage, the monarch granting hereditary peerages to female members of the royal family could easily be perceived as taking a political stance.

However, I see nothing stopping the BRF from abandoning some other outdated traditions (e.g., the insistence on addressing women by their husbands' first and last names whether they like it or not).


You make a very good point and IMO it's the only valid reason for not giving Charlotte a peerage title.

But at the same time, it was the British government's decision to abolish male precedence in terms of succession to the Crown. Awarding peerage titles to royal sons but not their older sisters who precede them in the line of succession might seem to fly in the face of that decision.

My impression is that rather than making a conscious decision to maintain a male-only hereditary peerage, recent governments have chosen to ignore the debate. And while granting a hereditary peerage to a female royal might be perceived as taking a political stance today, would the same hold true thirty years from now, when William's children are most likely to receive peerage titles?

If Charlotte were William's eldest child, she would eventually be named Princess of Wales, not George. Granted, it isn't a peerage title, but if she could hold the title traditionally restricted to the oldest son (as heir), then why couldn't she also hold a title traditionally granted to the second son (or spare). After all, she will be the spare, not Louis.

IMO, the most sensible solution would be to avoid any potential controversy by not giving peerage titles to either Charlotte or Louis, or at least hereditary peerages. Peers no longer have the political or social clout they once held, so thirty years from now the current practice might seem somewhat superfluous.
 
If Charlotte were William's eldest child, she would eventually be named Princess of Wales, not George. Granted, it isn't a peerage title, but if she could hold the title traditionally restricted to the oldest son (as heir), then why couldn't she also hold a title traditionally granted to the second son (or spare). After all, she will be the spare, not Louis.

She wouldn't necessarily be PoW. It's entirely discretionary and the Queen wasn't... (Likely Charlotte would be, but it's not automatic.)
 
She wouldn't necessarily be PoW. It's entirely discretionary and the Queen wasn't... (Likely Charlotte would be, but it's not automatic.)

Yes, it's not automatic (just as being given a peerage title isn't automatic), but George VI chose not to make Elizabeth Princess of Wales because she was only the heiress presumptive (theoretically, she could have been replaced by a younger brother). But if Charlotte were William's eldest child, she would be heiress, FULL STOP, so it's really not the same.
 
I say it is as simple as throwing all the nonsense out the window and move ahead with what the commonwealth already did. It is in order of birth not the sex of the baby. Now you could go with Charlotte would be the next in line so she will inherit the Duchy of York once it is open again upon the death of Andrew or if he is officially stripped of the title. Or if he lives likes his parents make Charlotte a Duchess in her own right with a different title and do the same for Louis. It does not have to be complicated at all.
 
There is no 'Duchy of York' only a Dukedom - one includes land while the second is merely a title.

By convention the York title won't be recreated again while Andrew's daughters live ... as they are still technically Princesses 'of York' even though they have dropped the 'of York' since getting married.

Unlike the situation that happened when George V and Elizabeth created their second sons Dukes of York while there were people alive who had been Prince/Princess of York those people had lost the 'of York' designation when they become the children of the monarch and thus became 'The Prince/Princess xxxxx'.

The only traditional reason to strip a peer of their title has been treason and Andrew hasn't done that. Parliament has a lot better things to worry about than arguing over stripping a peer of his title, which is rather meaningless anyway. It may have been worthwhile when Andrew had a seat in the House of Lords, even though he didn't actually attend the House, other that on the day he formally took his seat but now it is simply some words after his name - no income, no power etc associated with it.
 
By convention the York title won't be recreated again while Andrew's daughters live ... as they are still technically Princesses 'of York' even though they have dropped the 'of York' since getting married.

Unlike the situation that happened when George V and Elizabeth created their second sons Dukes of York while there were people alive who had been Prince/Princess of York those people had lost the 'of York' designation when they become the children of the monarch and thus became 'The Prince/Princess xxxxx'.

If I understand you correctly, you are addressing a very particular situation in which:

1) A royal peerage reverts to the crown because the peer lacks a male heir, not because the peer becomes king,

2) the peer is survived by family members who are or formerly were named with the territorial designation of the peerage, and

3) at least one of these family members is still living when a subsequent royal dukedom is created.


That situation has only happened for two peerages in the history of the British royal family: Cumberland and Connaught.

The dukedom of Cumberland reverted to the crown in 1790. The next creations of royal dukedoms happened in 1799 when Princes Edward and Ernest Augustus were made dukes. The widowed Duchess of Cumberland was alive at that time, but Prince Ernest Augustus was created Duke of Cumberland.

The dukedom of Connaught reverted to the crown in 1943. The remaining family members who were or had been "of Connaught" were Princess Arthur of Connaught and Lady Patricia Ramsay (who had dropped her title when she married). The only subsequent creation of a royal dukedom to happen during either of their lifetimes was for Philip in 1947. Of course, he was created Duke of Edinburgh and not Duke of Connaught, but in view of the Ireland situation, Connaught probably would not have been under consideration even if Princess Arthur and Lady Patricia had both passed away before 1947.

So it doesn't seem possible that there could be an existing convention against recreating a royal peerage while the daughters are alive, since the peerage was recreated in one of the two precedent cases. But it is possible that a convention could develop in the future.
 
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Royal correspondent Hannah Furness of the Telegraph was told by an unnamed source that the Duchess of Cornwall could be styled as "Queen Consort" when her husband is King. But she gives no inkling as to who the source is. The Prince of Wales's office declined to comment.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-f...et-back-duchess-cornwall-boost-queen-camilla/


At the time of her marriage to the Prince of Wales, the palace said she would be styled as "Princess Consort" when her husband was King, in the same way she chooses to use her Duchess title rather than "Princess of Wales".

In recent years, royal watchers predicted that this idea would be quietly forgotten when the time comes, with aides hoping the public will accept "Queen Camilla".

As the wife of a King, she would be a Queen Consort rather than a Queen Regnant – a monarch who reigns in her own right – with a source emphasising on Friday that the word "consort" would always be used. Clarence House declined to comment.

[...]

Prince Charles is understood to want his second wife to be known as Queen Camilla, and when asked on US television in 2010 whether she would become Queen, he replied: "That's... well, we'll see, won't we? That could be."

In 2018, Clarence House sparked speculation that the "Princess Consort" agreement no longer stands after staff quietly removed a statement about her future name from its website FAQs, claiming the public no longer asks the question.


Personally, while I have doubts about the reliability of the unknown source, I wouldn't mind HM The Queen Consort. It would be a very small change to the traditional style of a king's wife, and it would avoid confusion between future female monarchs and female consorts. (Royal watchers always argue confusion when it comes to male consorts being styled King.)
 
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Royal correspondent Hannah Furness of the Telegraph was told by an unnamed source that the Duchess of Cornwall could be styled as "Queen Consort" when her husband is King. But she gives no inkling as to who the source is. The Prince of Wales's office declined to comment.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-f...et-back-duchess-cornwall-boost-queen-camilla/





Personally, while I have doubts about the reliability of the unknown source, I wouldn't mind HM The Queen Consort. It would be a very small change to the traditional style of a king's wife, and it would avoid confusion between future female monarchs and female consorts. (Royal watchers always argue confusion when it comes to male consorts being styled King.)
well of course she could be queen consort. In fact that's what she will be, even if she decides to be known as Duchess of Lancaster, or Princess Consort... or Camilla Longstrocking. I cant see that she would be known as Queen Consort Camilla, as that simply isn't the way its done.
 
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The unnamed source is claiming that the word "consort" will actually be used in Camilla's future style, which if true would mean she would be known as HM The Queen Consort or HM Queen Consort Camilla, I suppose.

"As the wife of a King, she would be a Queen Consort rather than a Queen Regnant – a monarch who reigns in her own right – with a source emphasising on Friday that the word "consort" would always be used. Clarence House declined to comment."​

I am skeptical about the source. But I do believe it likely that, assuming the Prince of Wales reneges on his 2005 press release as expected, his wife will be styled Queen Camilla (or The Queen Consort, which is still less likely in my opinion) rather than The Queen for at least the first year or two of her husband's reign, out of deference to the many members of the public who associate the style of The Queen with Elizabeth.
 
I just find that hard to fathom. There is some slight precedent for Princess Consort.. ie like Albert being Prince Consort.. but all wives of Kings in the UK are queens consort and none of them has ever been known as Queen Consort Elizabeth or QC Mary or whatever
 
She could be known as HM The Queen Consort during the lifetime of her husband but what if she outlived him? HM The Queen Dowager?

She will be The Queen & Queen Camilla however she is known. But if people still object to that then I guess queen consort is a compromise. It would recognise the reality of her rank.
 
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She could be known as HM The Queen Consort during the lifetime of her husband but what if she outlived him? HM The Queen Dowager?

She will be The Queen & Queen Camilla however she is known. But if people still object to that then I guess queen consort is a compromise. It would recognise the reality of her rank.

If she is The Queen that is all she will be during Charles' reign. The wife of the King is HM The Queen and a Queen in her own right is HM The Queen - same title. The term 'consort' is understood but not stated.

She will be HM The Queen the instant The Queen dies and will then have to be stripped of that title by legislation - as under British common law a wife is always entitled to take all of her husband's titles.

If Camilla were to outlive Charles she would be HM The Dowager Queen or ... like Queen Alexandra and Queen Mary simply HM Queen Camilla.
 
If she is The Queen that is all she will be during Charles' reign. The wife of the King is HM The Queen and a Queen in her own right is HM The Queen - same title. The term 'consort' is understood but not stated.

Yes, that is the general practice, but Durham was responding to an anonymous source who claims that in the future the term "consort" will be explicitly stated.

She will be HM The Queen the instant The Queen dies and will then have to be stripped of that title by legislation - as under British common law a wife is always entitled to take all of her husband's titles.

There has never been any suggestion of being stripped by legislation. The Prince of Wales's official "intention" (for now) is that his wife will simply be known as HRH The Princess Consort.
 
She could be known as HM The Queen Consort during the lifetime of her husband but what if she outlived him? HM The Queen Dowager?

She will be The Queen & Queen Camilla however she is known. But if people still object to that then I guess queen consort is a compromise. It would recognise the reality of her rank.

Nobody saw any need to style Queen Alexandra as HM The Queen Consort after Queen Victoria died and I am sure the British public is sophisticated enough to understand that Camilla will be a queen consort and not a queen regnant.

If the story is indeed true, it sounds just silly to me. Besides, what would it take to give Camilla an official "title" as HM The Queen Consort? An act of Parliament? Or, more likely, Letters Patent? The title certainly doesn't exist in the common law.
 
Besides, what would it take to give Camilla an official "title" as HM The Queen Consort? An act of Parliament? Or, more likely, Letters Patent? The title certainly doesn't exist in the common law.

But would The Queen Consort have a different status from Queen Camilla or The Queen in the common law? Surely "Queen" is the operative term.
 
Doing a little research, it looks like Queens, even consorts or dowagers, are styled with Her Majesty, similar to Kings being styled His Majesty, but the husbands of queens regnant are styled His Royal Highness instead. Why is that? Is it similar to King consort vs Prince consort, where King is seen as a higher title than Queen in spite regnants of any sex being of equal power? Even if the title is His Majesty..., Prince Consort or His Majesty Prince...?
 
Queens both Regnant and Consort are HM The Queen

Kings are HM The King

Consorts of Queens are HRH Prince xxxx
 
In 1952 there were 3 queens in the UK

H.M.Queen Elizabeth II The Monarch
H.M. Queen Elizabeth ,The Queen Mother (Widow of George VI and mother of Elizabeth II)
H.M.Queen Mary (Dowager Queen and widow of George V,mother of George VI and grandmother of Elizabeth II)

More recently up until 2014 there were 3 queens in Belgium

H.M.The Queen of the Belgians (Queen Mathilde Consort of King Philippe)
H.M.Queen Paola of Belgium (mother of King Philippe)
Her Majesty Queen Fabiola of Belgium (Dowager Queen and widow of Baudouin, King of the Belgians and aunt of King Philippe).
 
In 1952 there were 3 queens in the UK

H.M.Queen Elizabeth II The Monarch
H.M. Queen Elizabeth ,The Queen Mother (Widow of George VI and mother of Elizabeth II)
H.M.Queen Mary (Dowager Queen and widow of George V,mother of George VI and grandmother of Elizabeth II)

More recently up until 2014 there were 3 queens in Belgium

H.M.The Queen of the Belgians (Queen Mathilde Consort of King Philippe)
H.M.Queen Paola of Belgium (mother of King Philippe)
Her Majesty Queen Fabiola of Belgium (Dowager Queen and widow of Baudouin, King of the Belgians and aunt of King Philippe).


The denomination "of Belgium" is usually not used:

S.M. la Reine / H.M. de Koningin
S.M. la reine Paola / H.M. koningin Paola
S.M. la reine Fabiola / H.M. koningin Fabiola

It has similarities with the British use:

H.M. The Queen
H.M. Queen Elizabeth *
H.M. Queen Mary

* The addition "Queen Mother" was used to tell her apart from her daughter with exactly the same name.
 
The denomination "of Belgium" is usually not used:

S.M. la Reine / H.M. de Koningin
S.M. la reine Paola / H.M. koningin Paola
S.M. la reine Fabiola / H.M. koningin Fabiola

It has similarities with the British use:

H.M. The Queen
H.M. Queen Elizabeth *
H.M. Queen Mary

* The addition "Queen Mother" was used to tell her apart from her daughter with exactly the same name.

And, in Spain, there are now two queens too:

S.M. la Reina (also S.M. la Reina Doña Letizia )
S.M. la Reina Doña Sofía

The main difference (everywhere) seems to be that only a queen consort or a queen regnant can be HM The Queen. Queens dowager or queens emerita (following the abdication of their husbands) are always HM Queen [forename].

However, in daily usage, even a queen regnant (HM The Queen) may be informally called Queen [forename]. We see that frequently in Europe too.
 
She could be known as HM The Queen Consort during the lifetime of her husband but what if she outlived him? HM The Queen Dowager?

She will be The Queen & Queen Camilla however she is known. But if people still object to that then I guess queen consort is a compromise. It would recognise the reality of her rank.

yes if she outlives Charles she would be queen dowager but I think that that title is not liked by older ladies nowadays. She would probalby simply be known as Queen Camilla still
 
Just a random question. If Prince Andrew’s Dukedom gets hypothetically revoked, what about Sarah, Duchess of York? Will her “name” change as well?

I guess she’s formally Sarah Ferguson but title-wise I mean. Thanks.
 
Just a random question. If Prince Andrew’s Dukedom gets hypothetically revoked, what about Sarah, Duchess of York? Will her “name” change as well?

I guess she’s formally Sarah Ferguson but title-wise I mean. Thanks.

In the UK most people don't keep their maiden name upon marriage, so, since 1986 she hasn't been Sarah Ferguson. That was only her name before marriage.

While married she was 'HRH The Duchess of York' (if in need of a surname 'Mountbatten-Windsor' would apply) and since her divorce she has been 'Sarah, Duchess of York'. So, if her title would be taken away or could no longer use that title, I assume the correct way to refer to her would be 'Sarah Mountbatten-Windsor'.

See for example how these things work in the UK: Camilla, she was known as 'Camilla Parker-Bowles' before she married Charles as that was her previous husband's name, had the convention been to revert back to your maiden name, Charles would have married 'Camilla Shand' instead.
 
Sarah's name wouldn't change as her name now says that she was the wife of The Duke of York but now isn't. Her name wouldn't change if she outlived him and there was no Duke of York either.
 
It is really peculiar that a lady divorces her hubby but still wants to continue his name. Over here on the Continent usually an end to a marriage means an end to being adressed with the husband's surname.

The most peculiar is Raine McCorquodale: firstly married to the Earl of Dartmouth, secondly to the Earl Spencer, then thirdly to the Comte Pineton de Chambrun. But after divorcing the third husband she returned to the surname of the second husband...
 
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Doing a little research, it looks like Queens, even consorts or dowagers, are styled with Her Majesty, similar to Kings being styled His Majesty, but the husbands of queens regnant are styled His Royal Highness instead. Why is that? Is it similar to King consort vs Prince consort, where King is seen as a higher title than Queen in spite regnants of any sex being of equal power? Even if the title is His Majesty..., Prince Consort or His Majesty Prince...?

Quoting myself because I wasn't clear before...why is a king's spouse referred to as Her Majesty (similar to the king being His Majesty), but a queen regnant's spouse is referred to as His Royal Highness, when she's referred to as Her Majesty?
 
Quoting myself because I wasn't clear before...why is a king's spouse referred to as Her Majesty (similar to the king being His Majesty), but a queen regnant's spouse is referred to as His Royal Highness, when she's referred to as Her Majesty?

Because the wife of a king is a queen (consort), but the husband of a queen regnant is only a prince.

Kings and queens have the style of Majesty; princes and princesses on the other hand have the style of Royal Highness.
 
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