Questions about British Styles and Titles 1: Ending 2022

[kyle]

I just read an article that threw out the idea that the title Prince and Princess could be used for those who are needed or chose to be a working royal. So basically, the monarch could "appoint" a member of the family to be a prince. So, it might be that we have a Princess Charlotte who is a working royal or a Louis Mountbatten-Windsor who is not. Maybe a Princess Louise who was formerly a Lady. What an interesting idea. I'm not sure how I feel about it.

 

[Denville]

I just read an article that threw out the idea that the title Prince and Princess could be used for those who are needed or chose to be a working royal. So basically, the monarch could "appoint" a member of the family to be a prince. So, it might be that we have a Princess Charlotte who is a working royal or a Louis Mountbatten-Windsor who is not. Maybe a Princess Louise who was formerly a Lady. What an interesting idea. I'm not sure how I feel about it.

I dont see the Queen or Charles liking such an idea. Being a Prince or Princess is not related to being a working royal....

 

[Alison H]

If prince Charles will become king, Who will be prince of wales?

William and Catherine will become Prince and Princess of Wales. The title's not inherited automatically, but William will probably be created Prince of Wales fairly soon afterwards.

 

[Osipi]

I dont see the Queen or Charles liking such an idea. Being a Prince or Princess is not related to being a working royal....

It's definitely not a job description title. Basically, the title of Prince/ss is there to define the relationship of a person to the reigning monarch. Prince Louis of Cambridge could decided to spend his lifetime in the armed services but that wouldn't change his relationship to his great grandmother, his grandfather or his father.

As it stands right now there are two princesses of the blood that are not working royals. Princess Beatrice and Princess Eugenie. As granddaughters of the reigning monarch through the male line, they're both HRH Princesses.

 

[Denville]

It's definitely not a job description title. Basically, the title of Prince/ss is there to define the relationship of a person to the reigning monarch. Prince Louis of Cambridge could decided to spend his lifetime in the armed services but that wouldn't change his relationship to his great grandmother, his grandfather or his father.

As it stands right now there are two princesses of the blood that are not working royals. Princess Beatrice and Princess Eugenie. As granddaughters of the reigning monarch through the male line, they're both HRH Princesses.

yes but I meant that I can't see teh queen or Charles "throwing out" the title of Prince/ss like it was a set of car keys.

 

[Osipi]

yes but I meant that I can't see teh queen or Charles "throwing out" the title of Prince/ss like it was a set of car keys.

I can't either. The Queen is a traditionalist of the old school and, from what I gather, Charles isn't one to start making mega changes to the way things always has been done. There will be some things that are necessary for the monarchy to move ahead into the future but I believe Charles knows that a lot of what represents the monarchy is its traditions and ways that denote a continuity through the ages.

 

[kyle]

yes but I meant that I can't see teh queen or Charles "throwing out" the title of Prince/ss like it was a set of car keys.

I have to admit I regretted my use of the term after I wrote it. Lol

Not necessarily what I meant or the words the author used. I wish I could say English is not my first language, but it is.

 

[Marengo]

A friendly reminder: sentiments or opinions about Sussex-titles should be taken to the Sussex-thread, which you can find here.

The technicalities around these titles can of course be discussed in this thread.

 

[Alison H]

I don't know that the Queen is a traditionalist. There've been some big changes in recent years. Equal succession rights for women changed the way things had always been done, and OKing the marriage of a monarch or heir to a Catholic changed a rule that went back over 200 years. Charles and Harry both marrying divorcees was also a big change, due to the religious issues involved.

 

[Roslyn]

I don't know that the Queen is a traditionalist. There've been some big changes in recent years. Equal succession rights for women changed the way things had always been done, and OKing the marriage of a monarch or heir to a Catholic changed a rule that went back over 200 years. Charles and Harry both marrying divorcees was also a big change, due to the religious issues involved.

I believe Elizabeth is a traditionalist. She allowed these changes but was hardly a trendsetter about it. She only changes things when she cannot resist that change any longer. Her changes tend to be catch-up changes made years after those changes have occurred in society generally including in statutory law. She still applies the mediaeval rules of coverture in the sense that married women are still referred to in palace documents as, e.g. Mrs Michael Tindall, i.e. as an extension of their husband and having no legal identity of their own, not even a first name. That is tradition with a capital "T" in my opinion.

 

[HenRach Dominion]

One thing I was wondering: assuming that everything goes as planned with regards to the Duke of Edinburgh title (the title absorbing into the crown when HRH The Prince of Wales becomes king, allowing him to recreate it and entitle it to HRH The Earl of Wessex), would Lady Louise Windsor still be styled as a lady, or another title? Will Viscount Severn still use that courtesy title, or will protocol dictate that he use Earl of Wessex as a courtesy title instead? Also, I read that both of them can decide to use their princely titles at 18; what are the chances of that happening? Finally, it will be nice to have another Duchess of Edinburgh with that title as a main title; Duchess of Cornwall is a higher title, and I'm not sure if HM The Queen got to use the Duchess of Edinburgh title much before she became queen.

 

[TLLK]

One thing I was wondering: assuming that everything goes as planned with regards to the Duke of Edinburgh title (the title absorbing into the crown when HRH The Prince of Wales becomes king, allowing him to recreate it and entitle it to HRH The Earl of Wessex), would Lady Louise Windsor still be styled as a lady, or another title? Will Viscount Severn still use that courtesy title, or will protocol dictate that he use Earl of Wessex as a courtesy title instead? Also, I read that both of them can decide to use their princely titles at 18; what are the chances of that happening? Finally, it will be nice to have another Duchess of Edinburgh with that title as a main title; Duchess of Cornwall is a higher title, and I'm not sure if HM The Queen got to use the Duchess of Edinburgh title much before she became queen.

I believe that when Edward receives the title Duke of Edinburgh that his son and heir, James will become the Earl of Wessex. His older sister Louise would keep her title of Lady Louise Windsor.



As to the Wessex children using the style HRH and title of Prince/Princess, I don't see that happening.

 

[Somebody]

One thing I was wondering: assuming that everything goes as planned with regards to the Duke of Edinburgh title (the title absorbing into the crown when HRH The Prince of Wales becomes king, allowing him to recreate it and entitle it to HRH The Earl of Wessex), would Lady Louise Windsor still be styled as a lady, or another title? Will Viscount Severn still use that courtesy title, or will protocol dictate that he use Earl of Wessex as a courtesy title instead? Also, I read that both of them can decide to use their princely titles at 18; what are the chances of that happening? Finally, it will be nice to have another Duchess of Edinburgh with that title as a main title; Duchess of Cornwall is a higher title, and I'm not sure if HM The Queen got to use the Duchess of Edinburgh title much before she became queen.

I agree with TLLK; not likely that Louise and James start using their princely titles even though according to Sophie they have that option. And yes, James will be 'upgraded' to Earl of Wessex (and Forfar) once his father becomes a duke. His eldest son (if he has one) will be the future Viscount Severn (by courtesy).

The recreated Duke of Edinburgh title will be the lowest (because youngest) among the royal ones and once no longer royal the lowest ranking of all dukes.

 

[Sionevar]

One thing I was wondering: assuming that everything goes as planned with regards to the Duke of Edinburgh title (the title absorbing into the crown when HRH The Prince of Wales becomes king, allowing him to recreate it and entitle it to HRH The Earl of Wessex), would Lady Louise Windsor still be styled as a lady, or another title? Will Viscount Severn still use that courtesy title, or will protocol dictate that he use Earl of Wessex as a courtesy title instead? Also, I read that both of them can decide to use their princely titles at 18; what are the chances of that happening? Finally, it will be nice to have another Duchess of Edinburgh with that title as a main title; Duchess of Cornwall is a higher title, and I'm not sure if HM The Queen got to use the Duchess of Edinburgh title much before she became queen.

Louise would still be a Lady, yes - this is the courtesy title allowed to both daughters of dukes and daughters of earls. Nothing would change there.

As for James, it will be interesting to see which earldom he uses as his courtesy title - Wessex or Forfar. Wessex is the senior title by date of creation, but I can see him using Forfar to avoid confusion, because it will take time for people to adjust to not thinking of Edward when they see the name Earl of Wessex. Time will tell

And I assume Charles will not grant Philip's other two titles to Edward at the same time - it will just be the dukedom of Edinburgh.

The issue of whether they will assume HRH etc when they turn 18 has been a hot topic for many, many years, and I have yet to see a definitive answer Time will tell here again. When Louise turns 18, if the BRF announces she is now HRH Princess Louise of Wessex, that will resolve the issue once and for all.

 

[Iluvbertie]

If I may go back to the titles after the passing of The Queen:

William will immediately become Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Earl of Carrick, Baron Renfrew, Lord of the Isle, Prince and Great Steward of Scotland.

Based on the precedence set in 1901, when this last happened, he will formally be Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge everywhere except in Scotland where he will be Duke of Rothesay.

Some time after he becomes King, Charles may create William as Prince of Wales. In 1901 Edward VII waited nearly 11 months while in 1910 George V waited about a month while Elizabeth II waited over 6 years. If that happens then William will be created Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester.

Whether the children will continue to use Cambridge at school I have no idea but I suspect they will do so for ease of use but officially they will be:

of Cambridge and Cornwall

then

of Wales

and when William becomes King, if they have no other titles given personally

The Princess Charlotte and The Prince Louis while George will take on the titles of the heir.

As for Harry - when The Queen dies he will add the word The to his Prince and be HRH The Prince Henry but as he has a peerage title that won't be used.

Unless The Queen issues new Letters Patent Archie and Lili will become a Prince and Princess the instant she dies.

 

[Somebody]

Given that the 'of Cornwall and Cambridge' is most likely temporary, my guess is also that the children will keep using Cambridge and only change when their parents become prince and princess of Wales.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

As it is now the moment Charles becomes King, Archie and Lily will become HRH Prince/Princess as they are then the grandchildren of the monarch.

As male-line grandchildren. Female-line grandchildren of monarchs are excluded by the present rules: see the children of the Princess Royal and the late Princess Margaret.

I just read an article that threw out the idea that the title Prince and Princess could be used for those who are needed or chose to be a working royal. So basically, the monarch could "appoint" a member of the family to be a prince. So, it might be that we have a Princess Charlotte who is a working royal or a Louis Mountbatten-Windsor who is not. Maybe a Princess Louise who was formerly a Lady. What an interesting idea. I'm not sure how I feel about it.

I dont see the Queen or Charles liking such an idea. Being a Prince or Princess is not related to being a working royal....

I think the two classes are more closely related than used to be the case in the British monarchy. Today, all of the working royals in the family are Queen, Prince or Princess, and most of the adult Princes and Princesses are or were working royals.

Also, I read that both of them can decide to use their princely titles at 18; what are the chances of that happening?

That was stated by their mother in an interview, for which the source and the earlier TRF discussion can be found here: https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f114/titles-of-the-wessex-children-13729-17.html#post2318933 She added that she thought it was "highly unlikely" that they would.

 

[HenRach Dominion]

Okay, another question then. The current Duke of York title will go extinct after the death of HRH The Duke of York, and The Princess Royal will be available to a future monarch's daughter after HRH The Princess Royal passes, correct? And although the Princess Royal title may be available during HRH Princess Charlotte of Cambridge's prime (due to the proximity in age between HRH The Princess Royal and HRH The Prince of Wales), The Duke of York title would realistically only be available in time for HRH Prince George of Cambridge's hypothetical children, right?

On a separate note, when is the last time the Duke of York title has been passed from father to son? It seems as though the most recent Dukes of York either had no children, no sons, or became kings themselves.

 

[Sionevar]

Okay, another question then. The current Duke of York title will go extinct after the death of HRH The Duke of York, and The Princess Royal will be available to a future monarch's daughter after HRH The Princess Royal passes, correct? And although the Princess Royal title may be available during HRH Princess Charlotte of Cambridge's prime (due to the proximity in age between HRH The Princess Royal and HRH The Prince of Wales), The Duke of York title would realistically only be available in time for HRH Prince George of Cambridge's hypothetical children, right?

On a separate note, when is the last time the Duke of York title has been passed from father to son? It seems as though the most recent Dukes of York either had no children, no sons, or became kings themselves.

Yes to your first two questions

It's possible the York dukedom could go to Louis - it all depends on how long Prince Andrew lives, and what age Louis is when he marries. And there would need to be a reasonable gap - I doubt William would regrant the dukedom if Andrew had just died a few months before.

But it is far more likely the York dukedom will next be used for a younger son of George. Or maybe even a daughter - who knows?

The dukedom of York has only ever passed from father to son way back in the first creation - Edmund of Langley to Edward of Norwich. From there, it went to Edward's nephew, Richard. When Richard died, it passed to his son Edward, who subsequently became King Edward IV of England.

No subsequent creation of the title has ever lasted beyond the initial grant, for reasons you state.

 

[Curryong]

From Wiki


The title of Duke of York was first created in the Peerage of England in 1385 for Edmund of Langley, the fourth surviving son of Edward III, and an important character in Shakespeare's Richard II. His son Edward, who inherited the title, was killed at the Battle of Agincourt in 1415. The title passed to Edward's nephew, Richard.


So the line was broken early.


[FONT=-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, Segoe UI, Roboto, Lato, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]This title has been noted for not passing from father to son in unbroken line for centuries, due to the conditions you mentioned. I suppose technically the last father and son who became Dukes of York (from different creations) were George V who bore this title before he became Duke of Cornwall and Prince of Wales, and his son Albert, who was Duke of York before he became King George VI after the abdication of his older brother Edward VIII.[/FONT]

 

[Somebody]

Okay, another question then. The current Duke of York title will go extinct after the death of HRH The Duke of York, and The Princess Royal will be available to a future monarch's daughter after HRH The Princess Royal passes, correct? And although the Princess Royal title may be available during HRH Princess Charlotte of Cambridge's prime (due to the proximity in age between HRH The Princess Royal and HRH The Prince of Wales), The Duke of York title would realistically only be available in time for HRH Prince George of Cambridge's hypothetical children, right?

On a separate note, when is the last time the Duke of York title has been passed from father to son? It seems as though the most recent Dukes of York either had no children, no sons, or became kings themselves.

And if peerages are still given to the next generation (which I hope), William would most likely rather create his own previous title of Duke of Cambridge for his son (assuming he marries in his father's reign; otherwise it won't be available yet) than his uncle's previous title (if available; by whose association the title is tainted) - even though the latter might be more historical.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Another consideration with the York title is that a title isn't usually given if there are still family members alive who used that designation e.g. Princess Beatrice 'of York'. Technically she is still a 'Princess ... of York' even though she, like her sister, have dropped the 'of York' to take on their husband's names.

When Andrew was given the title both the Queen Mother and Princess Margaret were asked to give their consent but as both had moved to higher titles than 'of York' they gave permission.

I still hope that the parliament will actually given women equal rights to inherit titles and that Beatrice will eventually inherit her father's title. It seems ridiculous to me that she could become Queen but not inherit her father's lesser title.

In 1926 the then Duke of York's first child was born. Because she was a girl she wasn't good enough to inherit his titles but suddenly when he became King that girl was good enough to inherit the highest title in the land.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

One reason Princess Elizabeth was good enough to inherit the highest title in the land was because she and Princess Margaret Rose had no brother. Elizabeth was the eldest daughter.

 

[Iluvbertie]

That is my point. If she was good enough to inherit the highest position in the land despite being a girl why couldn't she inherit a lower title? It is plain and simple sexism - either females are equal to males or they aren't and in the case of hereditary peerages they don't exist - they aren't good enough due to their anatomy and for no other reason.

 

[Harold]

My apologies if this has been asked before. Why does the royal family use "the" in front of some titles such as in Phillip's death announcement when it said "The Prince Phillip." Does using "The" make a difference?


Thanks.

 

[Denville]

That is my point. If she was good enough to inherit the highest position in the land despite being a girl why couldn't she inherit a lower title? It is plain and simple sexism - either females are equal to males or they aren't and in the case of hereditary peerages they don't exist - they aren't good enough due to their anatomy and for no other reason.

Its not a case of being "good enough". Its the law. There are lots of things that are unfiar about any social system and particularly a monarchy.....

 

[Iluvbertie]

My apologies if this has been asked before. Why does the royal family use "the" in front of some titles such as in Phillip's death announcement when it said "The Prince Phillip." Does using "The" make a difference?


Thanks.

Yes - the 'The' usually indicates the child of a sovereign e.g. The Prince Charles, The Princess Anne, The Prince Andrew and The Prince Edward.

When The Queen made Philip a Prince in 1957 she also gave him the right to the use of The in front of his name so The Prince Philip.

When Charles becomes King both William and Harry will be able to add The to their 'Prince'. Harry won't as he won't officially use Prince but William will in Scotland where he will be HRH The Prince William Duke of Rothesay (don't ask me why that happens as I don't know. I only know that that is how he is referenced officially in Scotland while in England or elsewhere he is HRH The Prince of Wales).

 

[Denville]

One thing I was wondering: assuming that everything goes as planned with regards to the Duke of Edinburgh title (the title absorbing into the crown when HRH The Prince of Wales becomes king, allowing him to recreate it and entitle it to HRH The Earl of Wessex), would Lady Louise Windsor still be styled as a lady, or another title? Will Viscount Severn still use that courtesy title, or will protocol dictate that he use Earl of Wessex as a courtesy title instead? Also, I read that both of them can decide to use their princely titles at 18; what are the chances of that happening? Finally, it will be nice to have another Duchess of Edinburgh with that title as a main title; Duchess of Cornwall is a higher title, and I'm not sure if HM The Queen got to use the Duchess of Edinburgh title much before she became queen.

She was Pss Eliz Duchess of Edinburgh from the time of her marriage till she became queen

 

[Somebody]

Yes - the 'The' usually indicates the child of a sovereign e.g. The Prince Charles, The Princess Anne, The Prince Andrew and The Prince Edward.

When The Queen made Philip a Prince in 1957 she also gave him the right to the use of The in front of his name so The Prince Philip.

When Charles becomes King both William and Harry will be able to add The to their 'Prince'. Harry won't as he won't officially use Prince but William will in Scotland where he will be HRH The Prince William Duke of Rothesay (don't ask me why that happens as I don't know. I only know that that is how he is referenced officially in Scotland while in England or elsewhere he is HRH The Prince of Wales).

Probably because they are concerned that people might not know who they are talking about if they would only use HRH The Duke of Rothesay?

Those with 'The' also don't have territorial designation. So, even if Harry was still unmarried when his father ascends the throne, he could no longer by HRH Prince Henry of Wales - as his father would no longer be of Wales; so, HRH The Prince Henry would be his 'updated' title.

(Theoretically this didn't apply to Charles and his sibling as their father remained the Duke of Edinburgh; but their mother being the queen took precedence)

 

[Denville]

Probably because they are concerned that people might not know who they are talking about if they would only use HRH The Duke of Rothesay?

Those with 'The' also don't have territorial designation. So, even if Harry was still unmarried when his father ascends the throne, he could no longer by HRH Prince Henry of Wales - as his father would no longer be of Wales; so, HRH The Prince Henry would be his 'updated' title.

(Theoretically this didn't apply to Charles and his sibling as their father remained the Duke of Edinburgh; but their mother being the queen took precedence)

I assume its because its his highest title in Scotland and the Scots would prefer him to use that rather than Prince fo Wales?