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  #3801  
Old 10-21-2018, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Delsia View Post
Full disclosure, I love history and Jewelry, that being said I became interested in the BRF when Diana, Princess of Wales married Charles. When they divorced, I was not a fan of Prince Charles and Camilla. However with age and life experience I am so glad that Charles and Camilla were finally able to marry. He, she, they are so right for each other I would wish they were able to marry when they met except for the fact the William, Harry, Tom and Laura would not exist nor their children which would be a tragedy.

Being that Prince Charles implied that Camilla would be Princess Consort instead of Queen Consort which she should be, what would be her title if Queen Elizabeth died, Charles became King and Camilla died shortly afterward but before Charles was Crowned.

What would her title be, in that Charles had not been crowned and BP had not made any statement regarding how she would be addressed?
Legally she'll be Queen the moment Charles becomes King, even before he's crowned, but it appears she might not be required to use that title. For example, right now she's legally Princess of Wales but is known by one of Charles's other titles instead. So IMO if Charles doesn't issue a statement between his mother's death and Camilla's then Camilla's title would be Queen (Consort).
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  #3802  
Old 10-21-2018, 08:16 PM
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That's what I wondered, if they would go through with the paperwork to demote her to Princess Consort or allow her to be buried with her rightful title of Queen Consort.
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  #3803  
Old 10-21-2018, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Delsia View Post
That's what I wondered, if they would go through with the paperwork to demote her to Princess Consort or allow her to be buried with her rightful title of Queen Consort.
I believe she would need to be formally created Princess Consort before she could use that title since "Prince Consort" wouldn't be one of Charles's titles. But I could be wrong. As King, Charles might have the right to simply decide the title she is known by through more informal means, similar to the press announcement that was made regarding the Wessex children. But whatever the process Camilla would still legally be Queen Consort.
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  #3804  
Old 10-21-2018, 08:57 PM
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It may also be as simple as what Queen Elizabeth did. Queen Elizabeth II issued letters patent, dated 22 February 1957, creating Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, a Prince of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Charles, as King, could do the same creating Camilla as a Princess of the UK in her own right and therefore she could carry the style of "Princess Consort". It would also, IMO, be more controversial than just going by tradition and having Camilla be Queen Consort.

I sincerely hope and think that, when the time comes, we'll have a Queen Camilla by King Charles III's side.
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  #3805  
Old 10-21-2018, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Delsia View Post
Osipi, I know legally that she would be Queen Consort, what I'm asking is if she were to die before BP had put out a statement regarding her title what would she be called in death, by the Monarchy King Charles, the papers tabloid included and the public?
The tabloids will do what they have always done and call her whatever they want to, with no regard for the facts or even the bounds of human decency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
When Charles becomes King - which as Osipi has said will be the instant the Queen dies - Camilla becomes Queen.

At his accession council, later that day or the next day, he may ask the government of the day to pas the necessary legislation to strip her of that title so he can issue LPs for her to be Princess Consort - or use some other mechanism.

Her only title, as the wife of the King, is Queen.

As the wife of the Prince of Wales she had a choice of may titles but as the wife of the King there is only one title for her.

Mr Blair made it clear, in 2005, that she would be Queen and the only way to deny her that title was by legislation. That means that the first thing that has to happen once Charles is King is for the parliament to pass legislation demoting his wife. It may even need legislation in all the realms that have to pass their own legislation which could be fun.
Clarence House disagreed with Mr. Blair. The issue isn't whether or not she will be Queen (legally she will be just as legally she is Princess of Wales) or if she can be denied the title. It's whether or not she can be forced to use it if she chooses not to. A Queen Consort is not the same as a Queen/King Regnant whose titles are regulated by law. The monarch does in fact have the right to decide the style she is known by.

See the article below which states: "Quite unnoticed in the press (and by me in my research until recently), the legality of the matter was quietly settled in a series of reports and statements from Parliament, as well as by Clarence House in statements that have been lost in the mists of time.

Based on this finding, I’m now able to confirm what I’ve suspected for a long time, that the title of Queen Consort is not actually established by law per se.
Instead, its usage is established through custom and precedent and, according to officials, there will therefore be no need for a change in law or introduction of a new law to give Camilla the status of Princess Consort instead of Queen; rather in the same way as she is currently known as Duchess of Cornwall whilst technically being Princess of Wales, she will be known as Princess Consort instead."

Will Camilla actually be Princess Consort? – Royal Central
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  #3806  
Old 10-21-2018, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
I’m not saying that you’re wrong, but popularity is a fickle thing.
For example we shouldn’t forget how for many years Andrew was the celebrated war hero while Sarah was seen as a breath of fresh air.
The couple was very popular and seen as more easygoing and less stuffy that the Waleses.
Things can change quickly.
The Yorks' popularity changed because of their own behavior and decisions, and character issues.

I guess everyone has seen the leaked news that Harry & Meghan are not interested in their children having any royal titles, and are even considering no titles for them at all. I am not surprised about M&H not giving their children HRH Prince/Princess titles, but I will be surprised if the Sussexes decide to go the route of Princess Anne, with no titles for their children whatsoever.

I understand how Prince Harry feels (especially since he chafed at being called a Prince), but I doubt Meghan necessarily feels it would be a burden for her children to be styled Lord/Lady.
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  #3807  
Old 10-21-2018, 10:11 PM
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The difference between Anne and Harry is that Harry has a substantive title. He would be the first nobleman in the UK to have his children as plain Mr and Miss if he really does mean 'no titles'. If he has said this I suspect he really means he will follow Edward's lead and they will be styled, for life, as the children of a Duke.

It would be a strange thing for his eldest son, assuming he has a son, to go from Mr Mountbatten-Windsor to His Grace The Duke of Sussex at some point down the track by inheritance from his father.
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  #3808  
Old 10-21-2018, 10:15 PM
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If Meghan had any issues with the idea of her children having a title she would not of married into a family that does titles.


LaRae
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  #3809  
Old 10-21-2018, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
If Meghan had any issues with the idea of her children having a title she would not of married into a family that does titles.


LaRae

Very good point, but if given a choice she may prefer they not have them. I don't have an issue with driving on icy roads which is good considering it snows where I live but if given a choice I prefer my roads ice-free.
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  #3810  
Old 10-21-2018, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaiaMia_53 View Post
The Yorks' popularity changed because of their own behavior and decisions, and character issues.

I guess everyone has seen the leaked news that Harry & Meghan are not interested in their children having any royal titles, and are even considering no titles for them at all. I am not surprised about M&H not giving their children HRH Prince/Princess titles, but I will be surprised if the Sussexes decide to go the route of Princess Anne, with no titles for their children whatsoever.

I understand how Prince Harry feels (especially since he chafed at being called a Prince), but I doubt Meghan necessarily feels it would be a burden for her children to be styled Lord/Lady.
Let's back up a little bit, who leaked the news about their children not having title at all?
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  #3811  
Old 10-21-2018, 10:38 PM
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I have to sincerely believe that any decision that Harry and Meghan come to when it comes to their children and titles, that it will be joint decision made by the both of them, together with HM, The Queen and The Prince of Wales, for the good of their children.

We have to remember too that Anne, although the daughter of a monarch and The Princess Royal, does not according to the way things work, have the ability to pass titles on in her family as that happens in the male line only. The Queen offered to grant Mark Phillips a title that he could pass on to his children but both Anne and Mark declined the offer and hence their children were Mr. and Miss.

With Harry being The Duke of Sussex, his children will naturally be in the male line of descent and the eldest son will be entitled to use Harry's subsidiary title of Earl of Dumbarton while his younger children will be Lords and Ladies. Should Harry and Meghan request that the children forever more be titled and styled as children of a Duke, it will be more in line of following Edward and Sophie's example.

No matter how the loaf of bread is sliced, the Sussex children will never be Mr. and Miss only. It just remains to be seen how it pans out in the future with the HRH Prince/ss honorifics.

@jacqui: I believe there was an article posted in the Sunday Times that purported that Harry and Meghan wish their children not to be HRH Prince/ss. With the source being "someone close to the couple", it isn't being regarded as a credible source at this time.

Another thought along the lines of Meghan's thinking when it comes to titles and her children. If Meghan really was that adamant about not liking titles, I think she would have either a) not married Harry or b) wanted to be styled as something other than The Duchess of Sussex which is very much a title. It wouldn't make sense for her to want no titles for her children when she's taken one on herself.
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  #3812  
Old 10-21-2018, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
m

@jacqui: I believe there was an article posted in the Sunday Times that purported that Harry and Meghan wish their children not to be HRH Prince/ss. With the source being "someone close to the couple", it isn't being regarded as a credible source at this time.
I don't recall that article saying they won't have a title at all. In fact, it said nothing of titles. Just that they won't seek a royal role for their children because they want to raise the children as normal as possible.
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  #3813  
Old 10-21-2018, 10:54 PM
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Good point and sharp eagle eye there. You're right. I guess people, like me, just naturally come to the conclusion that one way to remove their children from the "royal" fishbowl would be to adjust their titles accordingly or as many have pointed out, we're once again faced with the Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie scenario where they're royal but not working royals.
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  #3814  
Old 10-22-2018, 02:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Gawin View Post
We don't know. That's the reason why the issue keeps coming up. Andrew's children are HRHs but not working royals. Edward's children aren't even HRHs. So we're all waiting to see what the plan is for Harry's. According to the 1917 Letters Patent they will be Earl/Lord/Lady at birth and HRH when Charles becomes King but the monarch can override the LP as the Queen did with Edward's children and William's too. Stay tuned along with the rest of us....

It is not really about "working royals" as there are plenty of royals around with a HRH without any public role. It is the desire, in this time of 7/7 and 24/24 public scrutiny, to keep "The Firm" under control, to avoid undesirable situations. Maybe a desire to go to a situation in which being a HRH Prince(ss) of the United Kingdom means a close bond to the (future) Sovereign.

King George V once limited the group to descendants no futherer related to a Sovereign than three degrees of consanguity. It is a possibility that King Charles III wants to limit it more: to two degrees of consanguity, which effectively means: children of a King and children of a Heir are always HRH Prince (Princess) of the United Kingdom.

A Lady Louise Smith in a scandal has another "load" than HRH Princess Louise of Wessex in a scandal. Matter of perception and expectation.
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  #3815  
Old 10-22-2018, 03:55 AM
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Originally Posted by jacqui24 View Post
Let's back up a little bit, who leaked the news about their children not having title at all?
Roya Nikkah reported this news citing an insider source:

"The Duke and Duchess of Sussex will not seek any official royal role for their first child. They hope he or she will grow up to have what Harry has described as 'a relatively normal life,' according to a source who knows the couple.

'That word normal looms very large for Harry and Meghan when it comes to their child’s future,' the source added. The couple, who are taking Australia by storm on their first overseas tour, will become parents next year. Their baby will be seventh in line to the throne but there are no plans to give it a royal title.

Harry and Meghan are understood to have considered emulating the approach of the Princess Royal and 'follow the Zara and Peter Phillips route,' the source said. Princess Anne turned down royal titles for her children, who built independent careers with significantly reduced exposure to public scrutiny. Harry's desire to shield his children also coincides with his father’s wish for a 'slimmed-down' monarchy that focuses on the direct line of succession to the throne.

Meghan, 37, who is thought to be about four months pregnant, will continue to carry out a full programme of official engagements until the birth, and will announce her first patronages in the new year. But the couple will postpone a visit to America scheduled for the first half of next year."

This could obviously be false information. Certainly, there's no official confirmation. And it's not really clear that M&H are considering no titles at all. I just wouldn't be surprised if Harry is truly against the HRH Prince/Princess designation for his children, particularly since LP would have to be issued for it to happen upon birth. And then, Harry would likely feel why bother to extend royal titles once his father becomes king. So a decision is surely going to be made definitively before their first child is born.
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  #3816  
Old 10-22-2018, 04:10 AM
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They don't have to do anything before the children are born. They aren't going to have no titles ala Peter and Zara but titles like Louise and James as he is a peer of the realm. Even if he wasn't a peer and had remained simply Prince Henry and Meghan had become Princes Henry their children would still be Lord and Lady as seen with the children of Prince and Princess Michael of Kent.

If he decides to say nothing before they are born he will need to say something before his grandmother dies or his children automatically become HRH when she dies.

Saying nothing ever means they will be HRH unless Charles predeceases the Queen as then they will never be the male line grandchildren of a monarch and so could remain simply as the children of a Duke.

I expect an announcement from Harry before the child is born if he is going down the route of his children never being HRH so Her Majesty can make Her Will known as she did for Louise and James and so deny it to them forever.
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  #3817  
Old 10-22-2018, 04:16 AM
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Its very possible that Harry and Meghan will go the way Edward and Sophie did with their children but... and its a big but... they will still be titled as children of a peer. Just not HRH Prince/ss.

I don't see any way that the Sussex children would have no titles at all. Just perhaps no "royal" titles. Children of dukes are children of peers.

As mentioned before in the thread, Anne and Mark didn't turn down "royal" titles. They turned down a peerage title the Queen offered to Mark before their children were born. It was the same with the Earl of Snowden and Princess Margaret's children are titled as son and daughter of a peer with David Linley inheriting his father's title upon his death.

Everything in that article is pure speculation. "A source close to the couple" isn't very credible at all and there's been no real credible source that even points to what Charles wants as far as a "slimmed down monarchy". Its all plausible and may happen but nothing written in stone and fact as of yet.
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  #3818  
Old 10-22-2018, 02:38 PM
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I don't care if Harry's kids are plain Mr and Miss ...they will never have a life of anonymity because of who their parents/grandparents are. There's so much interest still in them ('the boys') and William's children..it will be the same with Harry's.


LaRae
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  #3819  
Old 10-22-2018, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by jacqui24 View Post
I don't recall that article saying they won't have a title at all. In fact, it said nothing of titles. Just that they won't seek a royal role for their children because they want to raise the children as normal as possible.
True, I just read it. They can still have HRH and not take on active royal duties like their parents.

The article said nothing about titles. Nothing has been decided or if it has it has not been announced.
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  #3820  
Old 10-22-2018, 09:21 PM
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They can still have HRH and not take on active royal duties like their parents.

Yes but please remember that new Letters Patent would need to be created for the Sussex children to have a royal title from birth. According to the 1917 Letters Patent, they could be elevated to the styles of HRH and the titles of Prince/Princess of Sussex when their grandfather's reign begins and if that is their parents' wish. If the 1917 Letters Patent are followed from birth then the eldest son would be Earl Dumbarton, daughter(s) would be Lady____Mountbatten-Windsor and any other son(s) Lord______Mountbatten-Windsor.



A royal title is a possibility but unless QEII chooses to create a new Letters Patent, it would be awhile before the Sussex children acquire one.
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