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  #3441  
Old 05-22-2018, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Gem7 View Post
If Harry and Meg have a son, will he be known as The Earl of Dumbarton?
He will be known as the Earl of Dumbarton until Charles becomes king. When Charles ascends the throne, he will become HRH Prince xxx of Sussex, unless the king decides he should continue to be styled as the eldest son of a duke and not as a prince instead.

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Originally Posted by royal_enthusiast View Post
What would happen if a Queen Consort divorces the King, what would her title be?
Catherine of Aragon was refused any title by Henry VIII after the divorce, ( technically annulment ?), except Dowager Princess of Wales, which she was as the widow of his older brother.

I don’t know what would happen today.
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  #3442  
Old 05-22-2018, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
He will be known as the Earl of Dumbarton until Charles becomes king. When Charles ascends the throne, he will become HRH Prince xxx of Sussex, unless the king decides he should continue to be styled as the eldest son of a duke and not as a prince instead.
Except if Harry and Meghan have children before the Queen leaves us, if she does not issue Letters Patent declaring the children not be HRH and Prince/Princesses wouldn't they immediately become HRH and Prince/Princesses upon their grandfather becoming King? How could he strip away something they already are?
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  #3443  
Old 05-22-2018, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by royal_enthusiast View Post
What would happen if a Queen Consort divorces the King, what would her title be?
I think she would still be (unfortunately) Queen ****, as in Britain divorced wives retain their ex husband's status and styling until they themselves remarry. She quite obviously wouldn't be 'Her Majesty' any longer, and the media would undoubtedly refer to her as ex Queen ****.

Perhaps the King might arrange during the divorce proceedings for her to bear another title in her own right afterwards such as Duchess of ---- if the divorce was amicable.
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  #3444  
Old 05-22-2018, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by royal_enthusiast View Post
What would happen if a Queen Consort divorces the King, what would her title be?

Honestly, I can't imagine that. But at least for the British throne, they would have to create a title for her because the king can't be a peer, so has no other titles. And she can't be (let's try it with Camilla, though not in any seriousness), Camilla, queen of the Uk instead of HM The Queen (consort). They probably would create her a duchess in her own right with the style of Her Grace, especially as she is not the mother of the heir to the throne.



I personally think it would be a good idea to change the way they handle divorces in the RF because it is so difficult for the public and the media to address eg Sarah, duchess of York in a way that she is not "the duchess" in media reports. IMHO they should have given her Andrew's secondary title, as even in case of a remarriage and a son for Andrew the boy would be prince xx of York and not Earl of Inverness. (It's Inverness for Andrew, am I right? If not, please correct me). Noone would call Sarah "duchess" in any case if her name after the divorce would have been Sarah, Countess of Inverness.



A bit similar to what happened to princess Alexandra of Denmark on her remarriage, she became Alexandra, The Countess of Fredensborg with the style of "Her Excellency" as a dame of the order of the Elephant.



IMHO these are important considerations for countries who actually have a monarchy and maybe titled aristocracy. I don't think it's fair to eg strip Tessy of Luxembourg of her married names completely and return her to Ms. Antony, because that looks to me as if the Grand-Duke believes she alone is responsible for the divorce. He should grant her a personal comital title, something to inherit for her eldest son or for both.



While here in Germany, it is crass in a way that divorced spouses of a member of the aristocracy can not only keep the name but can marry again and give it to the new spouse, when there is still so much social prestige behind it. I know that this is because of Germany's name laws but still...
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  #3445  
Old 05-22-2018, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile View Post
Except if Harry and Meghan have children before the Queen leaves us, if she does not issue Letters Patent declaring the children not be HRH and Prince/Princesses wouldn't they immediately become HRH and Prince/Princesses upon their grandfather becoming King? How could he strip away something they already are?

I think he could but am sure he would only do what his son and his wife wants.
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  #3446  
Old 05-22-2018, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile View Post
Except if Harry and Meghan have children before the Queen leaves us, if she does not issue Letters Patent declaring the children not be HRH and Prince/Princesses wouldn't they immediately become HRH and Prince/Princesses upon their grandfather becoming King? How could he strip away something they already are?


Before the Queen leaves us, Harry's children won't be princes. The moment Charles becomes king, it is up to him to decide their styles and he can override the 1917 LPs as he wishes, with no need to issue new LPs, as shown by the James/Louise precedent.


If it happens, probably it is going to be announced , before they are born, that, based on an agreement between the present Queen, Prince Charles, and Harry/Meghan, the Sussex children will continue to be styled as children of a duke in the British peerage when Charles ascends the throne. That way, there won't be a question as you raised that they were automatically princes the moment the Queen passed away and were later "stripped" of their title by Charles a few days or months later.
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  #3447  
Old 05-22-2018, 12:32 PM
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I remember reading an analysis of royal experts saying that rewriting the 1017 letters of patent created a difficult situation. If new letters of patent were issued to redefine who are HRH Prince/Princess by restricting it to the children of the monarch, family of the heir, the moment new letters are issues the following people would lose their HRH Prince/Princess overnight

Princess Beatrice, Princess Eugenie, James Viscount Severn (rights), Lady Louise Windsor (rights), Prince Richard, Duke of Gloucester, Prince Edward, Duke of Kent, Prince Michael of Kent, Princess Alexander, Future children of Harry (rights).

It is thought this is the reason nothing was formally acted when the situation with Edward children arose, mainly because of the impact on the people listed above.

I truly think Charles once monarch won't do anything about it.

The Queen's cousins are old, and moving toward retirement, and their issues are not HRH
Beatrice, Eugenie, and Louise issues won't be HRH


potential HRH once Charles becomes King are not that many

HRH Princess Royal
HRH The Duke of York (assuming he does not remarry, if he does, HRH the Duchess of York)
HRH Princess Beatrice, Mrs xxx
HRH Princess Eugenie, Mrs xxx
HRH The Duke of Edinburgh (Prince Edward after the death of Prince Philip)
HRH The Duchess of Edinburgh
HRH Prince James of Edinburgh (and potential wife)
HRH Princess Louise, Mrs xxx
HRH The Prince of Wales
HRH The Princess of Wales
HRH Prince George of Wales
HRH Princess Charlotte, Mrs xxx
HRH Prince Louis of Wales
HRH The Duke of Sussex
HRH The Duchess of Sussex
HRH potential children of The Duke of Sussex

At the end of the day I think it is Harry who will decide if his children are HRH or not, He has a great relationship with his Pa, and Charles won't do anything Harry does not want
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  #3448  
Old 05-22-2018, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by alvinking View Post
I remember reading an analysis of royal experts saying that rewriting the 1017 letters of patent created a difficult situation. If new letters of patent were issued to redefine who are HRH Prince/Princess by restricting it to the children of the monarch, family of the heir, the moment new letters are issues the following people would lose their HRH Prince/Princess overnight

Princess Beatrice, Princess Eugenie, James Viscount Severn (rights), Lady Louise Windsor (rights), Prince Richard, Duke of Gloucester, Prince Edward, Duke of Kent, Prince Michael of Kent, Princess Alexander, Future children of Harry (rights).

It is thought this is the reason nothing was formally acted when the situation with Edward children arose, mainly because of the impact on the people listed above.

I truly think Charles once monarch won't do anything about it.

The Queen's cousins are old, and moving toward retirement, and their issues are not HRH
Beatrice, Eugenie, and Louise issues won't be HRH


potential HRH once Charles becomes King are not that many

HRH Princess Royal
HRH The Duke of York (assuming he does not remarry, if he does, HRH the Duchess of York)
HRH Princess Beatrice, Mrs xxx
HRH Princess Eugenie, Mrs xxx
HRH The Duke of Edinburgh (Prince Edward after the death of Prince Philip)
HRH The Duchess of Edinburgh
HRH Prince James of Edinburgh (and potential wife)
HRH Princess Louise, Mrs xxx
HRH The Prince of Wales
HRH The Princess of Wales
HRH Prince George of Wales
HRH Princess Charlotte, Mrs xxx
HRH Prince Louis of Wales
HRH The Duke of Sussex
HRH The Duchess of Sussex
HRH potential children of The Duke of Sussex

At the end of the day I think it is Harry who will decide if his children are HRH or not, He has a great relationship with his Pa, and Charles won't do anything Harry does not want
I don’t know how it is done in British LPs, but , in other countries, when new rules are introduced for royal titles, there is usually a built-in “ sunset clause” under which all persons who had titles under previous rules keep them as long as they are alive.

For example, in the 2002 Dutch law on membership of the Royal House, there was a clause that allowed Queen Beatrix’s sisters to keep their titles of Princesses of the Netherlands and Princess Margriet’s sons, I think, to keep their titles of Prince of Orange-Nassau.

Likewise, King Philippe’s 2015. royal decree allowed all living princes and princesses of Belgium under the previous royal decrees by King Baudouin in 1991 and King Leopold II in 1891 to keep their titles.

As I said , I don’t know how it could be done, but I am pretty sure it is possible to write the new LPs in a way that Beatrice and Eugenie, or the Kent and Gloucester princes would not lose their titles.
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  #3449  
Old 05-22-2018, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alvinking View Post
I remember reading an analysis of royal experts saying that rewriting the 1017 letters of patent created a difficult situation. If new letters of patent were issued to redefine who are HRH Prince/Princess by restricting it to the children of the monarch, family of the heir, the moment new letters are issues the following people would lose their HRH Prince/Princess overnight

Princess Beatrice, Princess Eugenie, James Viscount Severn (rights), Lady Louise Windsor (rights), Prince Richard, Duke of Gloucester, Prince Edward, Duke of Kent, Prince Michael of Kent, Princess Alexander, Future children of Harry (rights).

It is thought this is the reason nothing was formally acted when the situation with Edward children arose, mainly because of the impact on the people listed above.

I truly think Charles once monarch won't do anything about it.

The Queen's cousins are old, and moving toward retirement, and their issues are not HRH
Beatrice, Eugenie, and Louise issues won't be HRH


potential HRH once Charles becomes King are not that many

HRH Princess Royal
HRH The Duke of York (assuming he does not remarry, if he does, HRH the Duchess of York)
HRH Princess Beatrice, Mrs xxx
HRH Princess Eugenie, Mrs xxx
HRH The Duke of Edinburgh (Prince Edward after the death of Prince Philip)
HRH The Duchess of Edinburgh
HRH Prince James of Edinburgh (and potential wife)
HRH Princess Louise, Mrs xxx
HRH The Prince of Wales
HRH The Princess of Wales
HRH Prince George of Wales
HRH Princess Charlotte, Mrs xxx
HRH Prince Louis of Wales
HRH The Duke of Sussex
HRH The Duchess of Sussex
HRH potential children of The Duke of Sussex

At the end of the day I think it is Harry who will decide if his children are HRH or not, He has a great relationship with his Pa, and Charles won't do anything Harry does not want
A note about Louise and James. I wrote to BP to confirm that they were not and never would be entitled to HRH and had my interpretation of the announcement in 1999 confirmed by BP.

A change in title can happen three ways:

1. Letters Patent
2. Royal Warrant
3. The Queen's Will being made known - via any means she likes such as a press release.

The third of these is what happened in 1999 so Louise and James are not and never will be (unless BP backtracks) on the HRHs.

I do think that the intention - going forward - is that only the children of the most direct line will be HRH, particularly now that Charlotte remains ahead of Louis in the line of succession. She can't pass on HRH so it would be silly for Louis to be able to do that when his sister, who is higher in the line of succession is able to do so. Anne was behind her brothers and so it was less obvious that she was being discriminated against.

They could easily cover the situation by setting a date (any child born on or after 1st January 2001 for instance would mean no one who currently holds HRH loses it but only William (and Charles) could pass it on.
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  #3450  
Old 05-22-2018, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
Honestly, I can't imagine that. But at least for the British throne, they would have to create a title for her because the king can't be a peer, so has no other titles. And she can't be (let's try it with Camilla, though not in any seriousness), Camilla, queen of the Uk instead of HM The Queen (consort). They probably would create her a duchess in her own right with the style of Her Grace, especially as she is not the mother of the heir to the throne.



I personally think it would be a good idea to change the way they handle divorces in the RF because it is so difficult for the public and the media to address eg Sarah, duchess of York in a way that she is not "the duchess" in media reports. IMHO they should have given her Andrew's secondary title, as even in case of a remarriage and a son for Andrew the boy would be prince xx of York and not Earl of Inverness. (It's Inverness for Andrew, am I right? If not, please correct me). Noone would call Sarah "duchess" in any case if her name after the divorce would have been Sarah, Countess of Inverness.



A bit similar to what happened to princess Alexandra of Denmark on her remarriage, she became Alexandra, The Countess of Fredensborg with the style of "Her Excellency" as a dame of the order of the Elephant.



IMHO these are important considerations for countries who actually have a monarchy and maybe titled aristocracy. I don't think it's fair to eg strip Tessy of Luxembourg of her married names completely and return her to Ms. Antony, because that looks to me as if the Grand-Duke believes she alone is responsible for the divorce. He should grant her a personal comital title, something to inherit for her eldest son or for both.



While here in Germany, it is crass in a way that divorced spouses of a member of the aristocracy can not only keep the name but can marry again and give it to the new spouse, when there is still so much social prestige behind it. I know that this is because of Germany's name laws but still...


Dowager Duchess of Lancaster?
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  #3451  
Old 05-22-2018, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post



I personally think it would be a good idea to change the way they handle divorces in the RF because it is so difficult for the public and the media to address eg Sarah, duchess of York in a way that she is not "the duchess" in media reports. IMHO they should have given her Andrew's secondary title, as even in case of a remarriage and a son for Andrew the boy would be prince xx of York and not Earl of Inverness. (It's Inverness for Andrew, am I right? If not, please correct me). Noone would call Sarah "duchess" in any case if her name after the divorce would have been Sarah, Countess of Inverness.


Yes, and it would be even more confusing if Andrew remarried. We'd have THE Duchess of York and Sarah, Duchess of York.
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  #3452  
Old 05-23-2018, 02:31 AM
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Originally Posted by padams2359 View Post
Dowager Duchess of Lancaster?
The style of 'dowager' is applied to the widow of the holder not to a divorced person so Dowager Duchess of Lancaster would be the same a Dowager Queen and the Duke of Lancaster is the monarch.
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  #3453  
Old 05-23-2018, 04:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Gawin View Post
Yes, and it would be even more confusing if Andrew remarried. We'd have THE Duchess of York and Sarah, Duchess of York.
That's nothing unusual in the British aristocracy. At the moment there is for instance one Duchess of Marlborough, one Dowager Duchess of Marlborough & the divorced wife of the 11th Duke Rosita, Duchess of Marlborough.
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  #3454  
Old 05-23-2018, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
That's nothing unusual in the British aristocracy. At the moment there is for instance one Duchess of Marlborough, one Dowager Duchess of Marlborough & the divorced wife of the 11th Duke Rosita, Duchess of Marlborough.
Agree. Also at the moment there are tree duchesses of Beaufort, two duchesses of Richmond, two duchesses of Grafton, etc.
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  #3455  
Old 05-23-2018, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
That's nothing unusual in the British aristocracy. At the moment there is for instance one Duchess of Marlborough, one Dowager Duchess of Marlborough & the divorced wife of the 11th Duke Rosita, Duchess of Marlborough.
Yes, you're right, but we're talking about royalty not aristocracy. The public and the news media aren't concerned about keeping the multiple duchesses of Marlborough straight because the same level of interest isn't there.
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  #3456  
Old 05-31-2018, 08:18 AM
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Is it true that if a Queen Dowager remarries they remain a Queen as once they are a Queen they are a Queen for life?
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  #3457  
Old 05-31-2018, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Gawin View Post
Yes, you're right, but we're talking about royalty not aristocracy. The public and the news media aren't concerned about keeping the multiple duchesses of Marlborough straight because the same level of interest isn't there.
If making things easy for the people or the media was of any concern for the Royal Family the women marrying princes wouldn't go by their husband's names. As long as QEII is alive they'll follow the traditional way and then we'll see if Charles or William changes anything.
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  #3458  
Old 05-31-2018, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I don’t know how it is done in British LPs, but , in other countries, when new rules are introduced for royal titles, there is usually a built-in “ sunset clause” under which all persons who had titles under previous rules keep them as long as they are alive.

For example, in the 2002 Dutch law on membership of the Royal House, there was a clause that allowed Queen Beatrix’s sisters to keep their titles of Princesses of the Netherlands and Princess Margriet’s sons, I think, to keep their titles of Prince of Orange-Nassau.

Likewise, King Philippe’s 2015. royal decree allowed all living princes and princesses of Belgium under the previous royal decrees by King Baudouin in 1991 and King Leopold II in 1891 to keep their titles.

As I said , I don’t know how it could be done, but I am pretty sure it is possible to write the new LPs in a way that Beatrice and Eugenie, or the Kent and Gloucester princes would not lose their titles.
If you look at the 1917 Letters Patent, they essentially had to clear the same sort of hurdle. In the middle of it is buried this clause:

"excepting always any such descendant who at the date of these Letters Patent holds or bears any right to any such style degree attribute or titular dignity in pursuance of any Letters Patent granted by Ourselves or any of Our Royal Predecessors"

Essentially saying,"everyone who has a title already gets to keep it, but these new rules apply going forward."

Royal Styles and Titles of Great Britain: Documents
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  #3459  
Old 05-31-2018, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by loonytick View Post
If you look at the 1917 Letters Patent, they essentially had to clear the same sort of hurdle. In the middle of it is buried this clause:

"excepting always any such descendant who at the date of these Letters Patent holds or bears any right to any such style degree attribute or titular dignity in pursuance of any Letters Patent granted by Ourselves or any of Our Royal Predecessors"

Essentially saying,"everyone who has a title already gets to keep it, but these new rules apply going forward."

Royal Styles and Titles of Great Britain: Documents
Then why did Alistair of Connaught lose his style of HH Prince of Connaught?
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  #3460  
Old 05-31-2018, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
Then why did Alistair of Connaught lose his style of HH Prince of Connaught?
Quote:
Originally Posted by loonytick View Post
If you look at the 1917 Letters Patent, they essentially had to clear the same sort of hurdle. In the middle of it is buried this clause:

"excepting always any such descendant who at the date of these Letters Patent holds or bears any right to any such style degree attribute or titular dignity in pursuance of any Letters Patent granted by Ourselves or any of Our Royal Predecessors"

Essentially saying,"everyone who has a title already gets to keep it, but these new rules apply going forward."

Royal Styles and Titles of Great Britain: Documents
The quote above leaves out a few key words which I've highlighted below:

"And We do further declare our Royal Will and Pleasure that save as aforesaid the style title or attribute of Royal Highness Highness or Serene Highness and the titular dignity of Prince or Princess shall not henceforth be assumed or borne by any descendent of any Sovereign of these Realms excepting always any such descendant who at the date of these Letters Patent holds or bears any right to any such style degree attribute or titular dignity in pursuance of any Letters Patent granted by Ourselves or any of Our Royal Predecessors and still remaining unrevoked."

save as aforesaid refers to the previous sentence: "the children of any Sovereign of these Realms and the children of the sons of any such Sovereign and the eldest living son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales shall have and at all times hold and enjoy the style title or attribute of Royal Highness with their titular dignity of Prince or Princess prefixed to their respective Christian names or with their other titles of honour."

That statement took the HRH away from Alastair of Connaught and the children of Charles Duke of Albany & Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, all great-grandchildren of a Sovereign.
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