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  #3401  
Old 03-27-2018, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
The wife of Prince Michael of Kent is Princess Michael of Kent. Why can she not be referred to as Princess Marie Christine of Kent?
That is the British custom for princesses by marriage. In the Netherlands, Laurentien for example is not a princess in her own right either, but she is referred to as Princess Laurentien of the Netherlands, rather than Princess Constantijn. Likewise, Sofia Hellqvist Bernadotte is called Princess Sofia of Sweden, rather than Princess Carl Philip.

In Belgium, the royal wives who became princesses in their own right by royal decree are referred to by their names, e.g. Princess Claire of Belgium, but the wife of Prince Amedeo for example is called Princess Amedeo by the Royal Court (informally, she is sometimes called Princess Elisabetta though).

I would say that the Brits and, to a lesser extent, the Belgians seem to be the only Royal Houses that cling to the old custom. In Denmark, they have found a creative solution: the princes and princesses of the blood are "prince/princess to Denmark" whereas the wives of princes, despite using their first name, are princess "of Denmark", so there is no confusion.
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  #3402  
Old 03-28-2018, 05:41 PM
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Princess Michael of Kent was Princess Marie Christine in her own right.
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  #3403  
Old 03-28-2018, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
Princess Michael of Kent was Princess Marie Christine in her own right.
I think she was only a baroness, not a princess.
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  #3404  
Old 03-28-2018, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
Princess Michael of Kent was Princess Marie Christine in her own right.
Of what was she supposedly a princess in her own right?

As far as I know she was born Freiherrin Marie Christine von Reibnitz. Her maternal grandmother was a princess (and her mother a countess) but that didn't make her a princess... she needed her marriage to a prince of the UK to be called princess (Michael).
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  #3405  
Old 03-28-2018, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
Princess Michael of Kent was Princess Marie Christine in her own right.
No she wasn't.

She was a baroness not a princess.
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  #3406  
Old 03-29-2018, 04:53 PM
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Mbruno and Iluvbertie and Somebody, Thank you for the clarification. The account I read may have been misinformed about Princess Hedwig von Windish-Graetz and Marie Christine.
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  #3407  
Old 04-13-2018, 05:37 PM
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Please clarify the title of HRH The Duchess of Cambridge, Kent and others

Good day everybody,

I've been studying European titles and styles on and off for the last year or so, using whatever limited resources I could find online.

I hope somebody is able to clarify this for me today:

My understanding is that in the UK, if a Royal Duke marries, his spouse is allowed the use of the female equivalent of his style and title.

Let's look at Catherine, The Duke of Cambridge's spouse. She is supposed to be styled as HRH The Duchess of Cambridge. However, everywhere online and in the media, I see her being referred to as Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge (note the absence of THE).

The way I see it, she is supposed to be referred to as Catherine, THE Duchess of Cambridge. Because, based on Courtesy title laws and usages, the following way of styling a noble's wife:

Name, PEERAGE of DOMINION - E.g. Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge

Is used for widowed or divorced spouses of Dukes.

There is supposed to be a THE in front of Duchess in her case, as she is still married to the current, living holder of that title.

The same could be observed about HRH The Prince of Wales.
As the son of a British Monarch, he is supposed to be THE Prince Charles if no references to his other titles are made. Yet, again, all over you will see a picture with the caption: Prince Charles.

If somebody could please correct me if my understanding is incorrect, or supply me with the correct protocols, I would greatly appreciate it.

Kindest regards
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  #3408  
Old 04-13-2018, 05:48 PM
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As I see it, you've got everything spot on and correct. The media is notorious for using incorrect titles for just about everyone. There have been times even that it was reported that Her Royal Highness, The Queen was in attendance somewhere.
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  #3409  
Old 04-13-2018, 06:07 PM
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I cannot thank you enough! I thought I was going crazy! So glad to see all my studying has been done correctly! haha
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  #3410  
Old 04-13-2018, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke_of_Jeroaldan View Post
I cannot thank you enough! I thought I was going crazy! So glad to see all my studying has been done correctly! haha
This is definitely the place to find out all those little details that can drive us nuts and its also the best place to ask questions as people are more than happy to share what they know with you and discuss and debate things.

Always feel free to ask questions. Its what starts good conversations.
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  #3411  
Old 04-13-2018, 06:44 PM
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The only thing I'd like to add is that it is indeed 'HRH The Duchess of Cambridge' and not '(HRH) Catherine, the Duchess of Cambridge'.

Catherine is not to be used in combination with 'the Duchess of Cambridge'. She will start using her own first name again as queen .

As you most likely know, she is also HRH princess William of Wales, the Countess of Strathearn and Lady Carrickfergus.
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  #3412  
Old 04-13-2018, 07:34 PM
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The formal way of referring to these people would include the use of 'The' but the media etc uses a more informal way of referring to them.

It is actually incorrect to use Catherine at all for HRH The Duchess of Cambridge. They don't use their names (other than Charles in Scotland) when referring to them.

In Scotland Charles is HRH The Prince Charles, The Duke of Rothesay but everywhere else it is just the title that is use without any name - so HRH The Prince of Wales or HRH The Duke of Cornwall, when in Cornwall or somewhere owned by the Duchy, or in Chester - HRH The Earl of Chester.

Even The Queen formally doesn't have Elizabeth as she is simply Her Majesty The Queen.

The formal use usually only appears in something like the Court Circular or on the BRF's website.

The informal use is used in the media as they don't think the general public could possible understand that HRH The Duchess of Cambridge it the same person as HRH Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge - or even is the same person as Kate Middleton, which they often still use to describe her anyway.
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  #3413  
Old 04-13-2018, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
The only thing I'd like to add is that it is indeed 'HRH The Duchess of Cambridge' and not '(HRH) Catherine, the Duchess of Cambridge'.

Catherine is not to be used in combination with 'the Duchess of Cambridge'. She will start using her own first name again as queen .

As you most likely know, she is also HRH princess William of Wales, the Countess of Strathearn and Lady Carrickfergus.
Her long title is

HRH Princess William, Duchess of Cambridge, Countess of Strathearn, Baroness Carrickfergus

She is referred to in the short title as HRH The Duchess of Cambridge.
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  #3414  
Old 05-07-2018, 10:27 PM
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Question about Prince Edward:

Ok if Phillip passes before the Queen, I thought the Queen could then create Edward the new Duke of Edinburgh. I've seen it said elsewhere that this can't happen until after the Queen passes because Charles inherits his father's titles....then Charles will have to create Edward the DoE after he is King.

Just trying to get clarity!


LaRae
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  #3415  
Old 05-07-2018, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
Question about Prince Edward:

Ok if Phillip passes before the Queen, his title reverts back to the Crown ...now I thought the Queen could then create Edward the new Duke of Edinburgh. I've seen it said elsewhere that this can't happen until after the Queen passes because Charles inherits his father's titles....then Charles will have to create Edward the DoE.

Just trying to get clarity!


LaRae
If Philip passes before the Queen the peerage goes to Charles. When Charles is king the title is available to be created for Edward.
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  #3416  
Old 05-07-2018, 10:39 PM
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Ok cool ..thanks!


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  #3417  
Old 05-08-2018, 03:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
Question about Prince Edward:

Ok if Phillip passes before the Queen, I thought the Queen could then create Edward the new Duke of Edinburgh. I've seen it said elsewhere that this can't happen until after the Queen passes because Charles inherits his father's titles....then Charles will have to create Edward the DoE after he is King.

Just trying to get clarity!


LaRae
The Future of the Duke of Edinburgh Title

In this thread there was even discussions about theoretical permutations for the Edinburgh title which could see it never be available for Edward or he could inherit it directly.

Note this thread dates from before William and Kate's marriage and children but the principle is still the same:

e.g. If the Queen, Charles, William and George all predeceased Philip (and no one is suggesting that could happen - this is simply a theoretical discussion) then Charlotte inherits the throne and Louis inherits both Cambridge AND Edinburgh.

Louis' birth added a new person in the line of succession to Edinburgh which is now - Charles, William, George, Louis, Harry, Andrew, Edward and James.

If all of the above listed males ahead of Edward were to predecease Philip then Edward would inherit all of his father's titles while Charlotte would become Queen ... and Edward would add Edinburgh, Merioneth and Greenwich to his titles. James would then use Earl of Merioneth as his courtesy title and his eldest son would use Earl of Wessex (Merioneth is the older title).

The Edinburgh title has the standard remainder - heirs male of the body - and so his heirs male are all able to inherit the title until one of those heirs male also becomes King and so the title 'merges with the Crown'. That is expected to happen when Charles is King - either immediately or sometime afterwards.

Had Philip died before 6th February, 1952 Charles would have inherited the Edinburgh title at that point.
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  #3418  
Old 05-08-2018, 10:24 AM
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New question! Was chatting elsewhere and something was mentioned about the Letters Patent not being made public for the Duke of Windsor. Is this because it was so long ago or are they able to be viewed just at some little known website etc?

Thanks for the info on the DoE Bertie!

LaRae
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  #3419  
Old 05-08-2018, 10:41 AM
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Not sure if it was made public at the time or not, but Heraldica has the LPs now: http://www.heraldica.org/topics/brit..._docs.htm#1937
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  #3420  
Old 05-08-2018, 11:18 AM
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I found that earlier...nothing about a remainder though? Since it's not stated then assume there isn't /wasn't one?

Wasn't sure that one was complete?


LaRae
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