Questions about British Styles and Titles 1: Ending 2022

[Tatiana Maria]

I though that Italian nobility does not exist anymore.

The present republican constitution of Italy, which dates to 1948, abolished the nobility, and technically it no longer exists. However, private nobility organizations continue to function, and many members of the deposed families (including Alessandro Mapelli Mozzi) continue to use the titles socially.

Foreign noble titles and the titles of deposed royals are two different matters in my opinion. The British law (is it a law?) concerning the approved use of foreign titles carried by British citizens aside there's a long standing tradition among the courts of Europe that members of deposed dynasties retain their titles. By now many of them have done so for two centuries. This tradition is so old that Andreas Palailogos could sell his imperial titles and his claims to the throne of the Eastern Roman Empire to King Charles VIII of France whose descendants Louis XII, Francois I, Henri II & Francois II all used imperial titles and honors.

But the longstanding court tradition extends to deposed nobility as well (and in certain European countries the line between royalty and nobility is blurred).

For instance, the Palace called the parents of the future Lady Nicholas Windsor by the Italian noble titles "Don" and "Donna" in the announcement of her engagement to Lord Nicholas.

 

[Mbruno]

Seems Edo had just jumped the gun. The official pages reposted the images.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1284853331425460225

So there you go: the official (?) Royal Family twitter account is still referring to Beatrice as Her Royal Highness Princess Beatrice of York and to her husband as Mr. Mapelli Mozzi (no "Count").



The confusiion about Beatrice's style seems to be the same we have seen with her sister.

 

[Lumutqueen]

So there you go: the official (?) Royal Family twitter account is still referring to Beatrice as Her Royal Highness Princess Beatrice of York and to her husband as Mr. Mapelli Mozzi (no "Count").



The confusiion about Beatrice's style seems to be the same we have seen with her sister.

But if Beatrice has taken Edo’s name, it wouldn’t have been official document wise yesterday, perhaps that makes a difference.

 

[Heavs]

in other matters, i am most confused/surprised that the press is referring to edo as Mr Mapelli Mozzi - surely it is Count Mapelli Mozzi?! the fact that it isn't a british title should make no difference.

Edo does not use his title socially or in business so neither does BP, they have previously used courtesy and defunct titles when referring to Italian nobility.

However it appears his father Count Alessandro Mapelli Mozzi does use his, but BP called him "Mr" on the official engagement announcement. Possibly that was to head off any official speculation of referring to Beatrice as "Countess".

 

[Mbruno]

Edo does not use his title socially or in business so neither does BP, they have previously used courtesy and defunct titles when referring to Italian nobility.

However it appears his father Count Alessandro Mapelli Mozzi does use his, but BP called him "Mr" on the official engagement announcement. Possibly that was to head off any official speculation of referring to Beatrice as "Countess".

I doubt either Edo or Beatrice will ever be referred to as “ count” or “ countess” in the UK . Furthermore, I don’t tink Edo has ever shown any interest in using his family title socially ( unlike his father for example). Using the title or not will not change the fact that he is of noble birth, which is what truly matters in my opinion.

I do expect , however, that , following British custom, Princess Beatrice will no longer be referred to as “ Beatrice of York”. That is why the tweet is confusing to me.

 

[Denville]

I doubt either Edo or Beatrice will ever be referred to as “ count” or “ countess” in the UK . Furthermore, I don’t tink Edo has ever shown any interest in using his family title socially ( unlike his father for example). Using the title or not will not change the fact that he is of noble birth, which is what truly matters in my opinion.

I do expect , however, that , following British custom, Princess Beatrice will no longer be referred to as “ Beatrice of York”. That is why the tweet is confusing to me.

She'll be either Princess Beatrice, Mrs Ed Mapella or "Princess Beatrice of York Mrs Ed Mapella..."

 

[Lilyflo]

I do expect , however, that , following British custom, Princess Beatrice will no longer be referred to as “ Beatrice of York”. That is why the tweet is confusing to me.

The official royal website still refers to Eugenie as Princess Eugenie of York.
https://www.royal.uk/succession

 

[Mbruno]

The official royal website still refers to Eugenie as Princess Eugenie of York.
https://www.royal.uk/succession

Adding more to the confusion. Maybe the Court does not stick to custom as they used to. We see it in the mix-ups with precedence at state events.

 

[Denville]

Adding more to the confusion. Maybe the Court does not stick to custom as they used to. We see it in the mix-ups with precedence at state events.

i dot see its a big deal. Customs for addressing married women have changed a lot in the past 50 years.. and although the queen's a traditionalist, I imagine the palace is changing with the times. Is there really a difference between Pss Eugenie, Mrs Jack Brookbank and Pss Eugenie of York Mrs JB

 

[Heavs]

The same succession list refers to "Mrs Michael Tindall" so maybe it is personal preference?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Princess Eugenie's title after marriage has been extensively discussed in this thread: Jack Brooksbank: Is there a Title in his future? I will post an update there in short order.

Adding more to the confusion. Maybe the Court does not stick to custom as they used to. We see it in the mix-ups with precedence at state events.

Princess [name], Mrs. [husband's given name] [husband's family name] is not a longstanding custom, though, as Princess Alexandra is the only precedent.

 

[Somebody]

The court website also excludes Zara's children and previously had the order in line to the throne incorrect (with Lady Helen and her children ahead of her brother's children) - and has been late adjusting the line of succession at times, so, it seems the people behind the CC are a bit more precise and/or use different rules than the ones keeping the website up-to-date...

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The court website also excludes Zara's children and previously had the order in line to the throne incorrect (with Lady Helen and her children ahead of her brother's children) - and has been late adjusting the line of succession at times, so, it seems the people behind the CC are a bit more precise and/or use different rules than the ones keeping the website up-to-date...

As discussed in the thread I linked to, the website did revise her title to Princess Eugenie, Mrs. Jack Brooksbank in the listing of members of the royal family - but it was later changed once more.

 

[Lilyflo]

The same succession list refers to "Mrs Michael Tindall" so maybe it is personal preference?

I think it's because Mrs Michael Tindall doesn't have a title to use instead whereas The Princess Royal and Princess Eugenie do. They don't lose their 'Princess' on marriage in the same way that an Earl's or Duke's daughter doesn't lose 'Lady'. Someone more expert will correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Denville]

I think it's because Mrs Michael Tindall doesn't have a title to use instead whereas The Princess Royal and Princess Eugenie do. They don't lose their 'Princess' on marriage in the same way that an Earl's or Duke's daughter doesn't lose 'Lady'. Someone more expert will correct me if I'm wrong.

But Zara might prefer to be known as Mrs. Zara Tindall.. or Ms. Tindall, or Ms. Zara Phillips TIndall. the old fashioned "correct" title for a married woman is "Mrs Michael Tindall" but not all women like that now. But I can't see any difference if Eugenie is Known as Princess Eug of York, Mrs. Jack B or "Princess Eugenie Mrs Jack B".

Years ago, when there were a lot of Princesses who often had the same first name using "Princess Victoria of Cambridge" was more important to distinguish her from her cousin Princess Victoria of York...but now, there are few princesses and they don't use the same names... so its hardly much of an issue

 

[Heavs]

I think it's because Mrs Michael Tindall doesn't have a title to use instead whereas The Princess Royal and Princess Eugenie do. They don't lose their 'Princess' on marriage in the same way that an Earl's or Duke's daughter doesn't lose 'Lady'. Someone more expert will correct me if I'm wrong.

Possibly, but Princess Eugenie of York is the equivalent of using Miss Zara Phillips.

If the website was being consistent about it, it would list Princess Eugenie, Mrs Jack Brooksbank along with Mrs Michael Tindall.

Ultimately it doesn't really matter, it's just interesting.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

But Zara might prefer to be known as Mrs. Zara Tindall.. or Ms. Tindall, or Ms. Zara Phillips TIndall. the old fashioned "correct" title for a married woman is "Mrs Michael Tindall" but not all women like that now.

I agree. For reasons I explained in this post, I believe the form "Mrs. [husband's given name] [husband's family name]" is the preference of Queen Elizabeth, not the preference of her granddaughters.

But I can't see any difference if Eugenie is Known as Princess Eug of York, Mrs. Jack B or "Princess Eugenie Mrs Jack B".

In references to Eugenie it has always been either Princess Eugenie of York or Princess Eugenie, Mrs. Jack Brooksbank without the of York.

 

[Denville]

I agree. For reasons I explained in this post, I believe the form "Mrs. [husband's given name] [husband's family name]" is the preference of Queen Elizabeth, not the preference of her granddaughters.



In references to Eugenie it has always been either Princess Eugenie of York or Princess Eugenie, Mrs. Jack Brooksbank without the of York.

yes I know. I think the queen's very old fashioned.. but a younger woman like Zara might prefer not to be known by "Mrs Husband's Name..."

 

[Lilyflo]

But Zara might prefer to be known as Mrs. Zara Tindall.. or Ms. Tindall, or Ms. Zara Phillips TIndall. the old fashioned "correct" title for a married woman is "Mrs Michael Tindall" but not all women like that now. But I can't see any difference if Eugenie is Known as Princess Eug of York, Mrs. Jack B or "Princess Eugenie Mrs Jack B".

Yes I believe she prefers to use Zara Tindall in her riding life doesn't she? She's obviously happy to be styled in the traditional way here though. My point is that Zara doesn't have a title, whereas the others do, they don't lose them on marriage and they've chosen to continue using them.

 

[Mbruno]

Princess Eugenie's title after marriage has been extensively discussed in this thread: Jack Brooksbank: Is there a Title in his future? I will post an update there in short order.



Princess [name], Mrs. [husband's given name] [husband's family name] is not a longstanding custom, though, as Princess Alexandra is the only precedent.

I believe the custom has always been the same , I.e. a married princess takes her husband’s style as another non-royal wife would. The wife of the Earl of Snowdon is known as the Countess of Snowdon rather than being called by her husband’s family name ( or surname as I guess you say in the UK). The wife of The Honourable Sir Angus Ogilvy on the other hand is The Honourable Lady Ogilvy , and the wife of Mr Jack Brooksbank is Mrs Jack Brooksbank.

The only difference to a non-royal wife is that the dignity of Princess and the style of HRH , prefixed to the given names , are not lost with marriage since, in Beatrice’s case, they are tied to being a granddaughter of a British sovereign in male line. The designation “HRH Princess Beatrice “ would be superseded, I think, only by another Foreign royal title of higher relative rank ( like Crown Princess of Denmark for example), although I am not sure how royal families handle those cases nowadays as dynastic marriages are so rare.

In the UK, even equal or higher ranked foreign titles were superseded by British royal titles upon marriage.

 

[Lilyflo]

Possibly, but Princess Eugenie of York is the equivalent of using Miss Zara Phillips.

I'm not sure it is because if Zara had been Lady Zara Phillips, she'd now be Lady Zara Tindall. She wouldn't have to drop the 'Lady' so why would a princess have to drop the title?

 

[Denville]

I'm not sure it is because if Zara had been Lady Zara Phillips, she'd now be Lady Zara Tindall. She wouldn't have to drop the 'Lady' so why would a princess have to drop the title?

She doesn't have to, she may choose to do so.. but I'd say the queen would be of the school that would prefer people keeping their ttiltles and using them.

 

[Mbruno]

I'm not sure it is because if Zara had been Lady Zara Phillips, she'd now be Lady Zara Tindall. She wouldn't have to drop the 'Lady' so why would a princess have to drop the title?

She doesn’t have to drop Princess and actually should not do it. The discussion is about dropping “ of York” , which is more or less equivalent to her father’s surname in the old sense of the territorial designation of a peerage being a proxy for family name even though it is not a legal surname strictly speaking.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Yes I believe she prefers to use Zara Tindall in her riding life doesn't she? She's obviously happy to be styled in the traditional way here though. My point is that Zara doesn't have a title, whereas the others do, they don't lose them on marriage and they've chosen to continue using them.

Do we know for a fact that she is "obviously happy to be styled in the traditional way"? She has expressed happiness in interviews with being untitled, but I haven't found an interview in which she shares her feelings about being styled "Mrs. Michael Tindall".

I believe the custom has always been the same , I.e. a married princess takes her husband’s style as another non-royal wife would. The wife of the Earl of Snowdon is known as the Countess of Snowdon rather than being called by her husband’s family name ( or surname as I guess you say in the UK). The wife of The Honourable Sir Angus Ogilvy on the other hand is The Honourable Lady Ogilvy , and the wife of Mr Jack Brooksbank is Mrs Jack Brooksbank.

The only difference to a non-royal wife is that the dignity of Princess and the style of HRH , prefixed to the given names , are not lost with marriage since, in Beatrice’s case, they are tied to being a granddaughter of a British sovereign in male line. The designation “HRH Princess Beatrice “ would be superseded, I think, only by another Foreign royal title of higher relative rank ( like Crown Princess of Denmark for example), although I am not sure how royal families handle those cases nowadays as dynastic marriages are so rare.

In the UK, even equal rank foreign titles were superseded by British titles upon marriage.

But if she followed the custom of taking the husband's style, she would be styled "HRH Mrs. Jack Brooksbank" (as in the old usage of the grand-ducal family of Luxembourg) rather than "HRH Princess Eugenie, Mrs. Jack Brooksbank". My point was that the combination of "Princess" and "Mrs." by which Princess Alexandra was designated before her husband was knighted was used for her only, prior to the marriage of Princess Eugenie.

 

[Lilyflo]

Do we know for a fact that she is "obviously happy to be styled in the traditional way"? She has expressed happiness in interviews with being untitled, but I haven't found an interview in which she shares her feelings about being styled "Mrs. Michael Tindall".

We don't know it for certain but I can't imagine the official royal website using a name she objected to. If she didn't want it used in the succession list, she'd only have to petition her grandmother for it to be changed.

 

[Mbruno]

Do we know for a fact that she is "obviously happy to be styled in the traditional way"? She has expressed happiness in interviews with being untitled, but I haven't found an interview in which she shares her feelings about being styled "Mrs. Michael Tindall".



But if she followed the custom of taking the husband's style, she would be styled "HRH Mrs. Jack Brooksbank" (as in the old usage of the grand-ducal family of Luxembourg) rather than "HRH Princess Eugenie, Mrs. Jack Brooksbank". My point was that the combination of "Princess" and "Mrs." by which Princess Alexandra was designated before her husband was knighted was used for her only, prior to the marriage of Princess Eugenie.

The difference , I suppose, is that the LPs of 1917 say that she carries the dignity Princess and the style HRH prefixed to her given names. Note that wives of princes do not. That is why Eugenie is

HRH Princess Eugenie, Mrs Jack Brooksbank

Whereas Catherine in George’s birth certificate is

Catherine Elizabeth, HRH The Duchess of Cambridge

The naming in documents at least is consistent. My understanding is that HRH and Princess are part so to speak of Beatrice ‘s legal name in the UK.

Eugenie would be HRH Mrs Jack Brooksbank only iii her husband were HRH Mr Jack Brooksbank , which he is not. Prince Philip was HRH Sir Philip Mountbatten and HRH Philip, Duke of Edinburgh in the past though.

 

[Lilyflo]

She diesn’t have to drop Princess and actually should not do it. The discussion is about dropping “ of York” , which is more or less equivalent to her father’s surname in the old sense of the territorial designation of a peerage being a proxy for family name even though it is not a legal surname strictly speaking.

OK I see now what you mean. Was Princess Alexandra was ever referred to as Princess Alexandra of Kent after her marriage? I don't think she was.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

See here for an update regarding the title of Princess Eugenie of York: Jack Brooksbank: Is there a Title in his future?

We don't know it for certain but I can't imagine the official royal website using a name she objected to. If she didn't want it used in the succession list, she'd only have to petition her grandmother for it to be changed.

Thanks.

In 2000, a woman who requested to use her own given name instead of her husband's given name was refused permission by the Queen's representative. Reading this, I believe that Queen Elizabeth would use "Mrs. Michael" and "Mrs. Jack" whether or not her granddaughters objected.

A competing horse has more independence | World news | The Guardian

The difference , I suppose, is that the LPs of 1917 say that she carries the dignity Princess and the style HRH prefixed to her given names.

The 1917 LPs relate to legal titles, not styles; otherwise Maud, the queen of Norway, would have had to be styled HRH Princess Maud when she was in the UK.

Eugenie would be HRH Mrs Jack Brooksbank only iii her husband were HRH Mr Jack Brooksbank , which he is not.

And that decision was only made with the marriage of Princess Alexandra, she being the first British princess to marry a husband without a title and still remain styled as a princess.

 

[Lilyflo]

In 2000, a woman who requested to use her own given name instead of her husband's given name was refused permission by the Queen's representative. Reading this, I believe that Queen Elizabeth would use "Mrs. Michael" and "Mrs. Jack" whether or not her granddaughters objected.

A competing horse has more independence | World news | The Guardian

Thanks for the link Tatiana. It isn't working for me but it seems from what you say to be about a woman being refused 20 years ago to use her own name rather than her husband's. I don't consider that to be enough evidence that HMQ would reject her granddaughter's preference in 2020 so I'm still leaning towards Zara being happy with it (in this context).

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Thanks for the link Tatiana. It isn't working for me but it seems from what you say to be about a woman being refused 20 years ago to use her own name rather than her husband's. I don't consider that to be enough evidence that HMQ would reject her granddaughter's preference in 2020 so I'm still leaning towards Zara being happy with it (in this context).

Apologies. I think I have fixed the link; please try it again.

I hope that you are right, but I see no evidence that Queen Elizabeth has evolved on this issue over the last 20 years.