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  #3141  
Old 09-15-2017, 10:19 AM
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I believe that Harry will get a dukedom upon marriage but there is not a precedent for it since when George V got his dukedom he was the heir. Theoretically his grandmother may not grant Harry a dukedom and his wife will be Princess Henry.

If things happen as expected then William will have three dukedoms: Cambridge, Cornwall and Rothesay.
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Old 09-15-2017, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Queen Claude View Post
I believe that Harry will get a dukedom upon marriage but there is not a precedent for it since when George V got his dukedom he was the heir. Theoretically his grandmother may not grant Harry a dukedom and his wife will be Princess Henry.

If things happen as expected then William will have three dukedoms: Cambridge, Cornwall and Rothesay.
Yes, I thought of that. But George was still single and only 26 when his elder brother died, and he became the heir's heir. Had his brother lived, I think he would of still became The Duke of York in QV's lifetime.

QV's youngest son was made a Duke at 28. So I think George would have been made a Duke at around the same age or at the very least when he was getting ready to marry. His brother's death just fast forwarded things a bit.
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  #3143  
Old 09-15-2017, 10:59 AM
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Victoria gave out peerages before marriages. Eddy had a peerage. George V made Bertie and Henry Dukes well before their marriage. George was the only one that got his Dukedom around his wedding. He got it a month before.

However, we have not seen this behavior from Queen Elizabeth. Andrew, Edward and William all got their peerages on their wedding day. So it would be expected she would do the same for Harry.
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  #3144  
Old 09-15-2017, 11:45 AM
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Let's not forget, although Harry is the second son of a future monarch, he cannot be made Duke of York until Andrew passes, and Charlotte cannot be named Princess Royal until Anne passes. If Andrew had a son, the title would probably never be available to Harry. It just so happens that the current and last Dukes of York only had daughters.
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  #3145  
Old 09-15-2017, 02:19 PM
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Charlotte can't be named Princess Royal until her father is King, even if Anne has passed prior to that point.

With the age difference between Charles and Andrew, it's quite likely when Andrew passes William is King so Harry isn't the second son of the monarch when the York Dukedom is free. Kate could be carrying the next Duke of York right now.
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  #3146  
Old 09-16-2017, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by padams2359 View Post
Let's not forget, although Harry is the second son of a future monarch, he cannot be made Duke of York until Andrew passes, and Charlotte cannot be named Princess Royal until Anne passes. If Andrew had a son, the title would probably never be available to Harry. It just so happens that the current and last Dukes of York only had daughters.
As has been said above, the title of Duke of York has not passed from father to son by inheritance since 1460, when Richard Duke of York was killed in battle and his son Edward Earl of March succeeded him. This Edward Duke of York became Edward IV later that same year. Since that time, all Dukes of York have either died childless or have become King, with the exception of the current Duke, Prince Andrew, who has only daughters who cannot succeed him.

My guess is that the next Duke/Duchess of York could conceivably be George's oldest child - given absolute primogeniture. Scenario: William is King and George is a young man and Prince of Wales/Duke of Cornwall. Andrew passes after a long life, leaving York vacant. At a suitable time (marriage, etc.) George's oldest child becomes Duke OR Duchess of York. That would keep the title in the royal family, becoming the "new" tradition - that Duke/Duchess of York is the title for the Sovereign's grandchild who is the Heir to the Heir.
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  #3147  
Old 09-16-2017, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by LauraS3514 View Post
As has been said above, the title of Duke of York has not passed from father to son by inheritance since 1460, when Richard Duke of York was killed in battle and his son Edward Earl of March succeeded him. This Edward Duke of York became Edward IV later that same year. Since that time, all Dukes of York have either died childless or have become King, with the exception of the current Duke, Prince Andrew, who has only daughters who cannot succeed him.

My guess is that the next Duke/Duchess of York could conceivably be George's oldest child - given absolute primogeniture. Scenario: William is King and George is a young man and Prince of Wales/Duke of Cornwall. Andrew passes after a long life, leaving York vacant. At a suitable time (marriage, etc.) George's oldest child becomes Duke OR Duchess of York. That would keep the title in the royal family, becoming the "new" tradition - that Duke/Duchess of York is the title for the Sovereign's grandchild who is the Heir to the Heir.
Highly unlikely it would be George's oldest child.

Actually its highly possible it will be baby three if its a boy, George's new sibling. Or girl if they decide to join the 21st century and give daughters titles since equal inheritance. The reality is Andrew will be 58 when the kid is born. Royals are marrying older. If new baby is in his thirties when he marries, like Harry and even his dad almost, Andrew would be in his late eighties or nineties. There is no saying he will live as long as his parents.

There seems to be little reason to institute a 'new tradition'. Since George's eldest child will be prince of wales one day, the title would merge. More likely if George's new sibling is married in Andrew's life time, it will be his second child who is Duke of York.

Be nice if they joined the twenty first century, and when Charlotte married she was made duchess of x in her own right. But never holding my breath on that.
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  #3148  
Old 09-16-2017, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
Highly unlikely it would be George's oldest child.

There seems to be little reason to institute a 'new tradition'. Since George's eldest child will be prince of wales one day, the title would merge. More likely if George's new sibling is married in Andrew's life time, it will be his second child who is Duke of York.

Be nice if they joined the twenty first century, and when Charlotte married she was made duchess of x in her own right. But never holding my breath on that.
Well, with Kent, Gloucester, and, after Edward's creation, Edinburgh, slated to leave the RF for the foreseeable future, having York "reserved" for the Heir's Heir would keep this very historic title in the family, by the fact that it does merge. Giving it to younger sons (or daughters) would see it leaving the family. Unless, of course, it is a "life" peerage, such as those in Sweden - but there has never been a "life" dukedom created in the UK.
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  #3149  
Old 09-16-2017, 01:56 PM
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Let's assume C3 is a boy. Even if Andrew dies before he marries, and York is available, I bet he gets the Cambridge ducal title instead. It would be sentimental because of his parents, and he, himself, will have likely used Cambridge as a last name in his early years.
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  #3150  
Old 09-16-2017, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by LauraS3514 View Post
Well, with Kent, Gloucester, and, after Edward's creation, Edinburgh, slated to leave the RF for the foreseeable future, having York "reserved" for the Heir's Heir would keep this very historic title in the family, by the fact that it does merge. Giving it to younger sons (or daughters) would see it leaving the family. Unless, of course, it is a "life" peerage, such as those in Sweden - but there has never been a "life" dukedom created in the UK.
Its not that historic. It doesn't have that long of a history as a royal title. Before George V, it hadn't been used in almost 200 years. Since the Yorks came to the throne, it has only been bestowed on six.
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  #3151  
Old 09-16-2017, 05:04 PM
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George III second son was the Duke of York. He died in 1828 - so hardly 'nearly 200 years' as Queen Victoria knew her Uncle Frederick who was HRH The Duke of York and regent for his older brother in Hannover.
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  #3152  
Old 09-16-2017, 06:09 PM
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Let's assume C3 is a boy. Even if Andrew dies before he marries, and York is available, I bet he gets the Cambridge ducal title instead. It would be sentimental because of his parents, and he, himself, will have likely used Cambridge as a last name in his early years.
Interesting idea (although the degree of sentimentality might depend on how long the duke and duchess are known by this name (and therefore their children as well). It would, however, require (next to your assumption) that William is king at that point as the title won't merge with the crown any earlier. Otherwise, they might end up with the same situation as Edward is in; a lower title, until the Cambridge title becomes available.
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  #3153  
Old 09-16-2017, 09:22 PM
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I have read and followed the logic of the arguments on the thread stating that Harry most likely will be granted a Dukedom upon marriage, and while I understand the (apparent) inevitability of such happening, my hope for him is that he will take an earldom because I love the sound of 'Countess' (over 'Duchess').

'Countess' sounds so classy. Plus they could do the cutting-edge thing (in keeping with 'normality') and raise their children without titles (like the Wessexes are doing, like Anne did), thus preparing them for the new world they will inhabit (without royalty). JMO.
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  #3154  
Old 09-16-2017, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by padams2359 View Post
Let's not forget, although Harry is the second son of a future monarch, he cannot be made Duke of York until Andrew passes, and Charlotte cannot be named Princess Royal until Anne passes . . . . .
Here's the thing, while you are correct that there can only be one Princess Royal at any one time, it is not an automatic title. Mary, the previous holder of that title, died in 1965 and the Queen didn't create Anne Princess Royal until 1987.

I may be that the title is bestowed when the recipient reaches her early twenties or the previous title holder dies, whichever comes first.
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  #3155  
Old 09-16-2017, 10:13 PM
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William still has to be King for Charlotte to become Princess Royal. If Anne died tomorrow, Charlotte could not become Princess Royal until she is the eldest daughter of the King.
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  #3156  
Old 09-16-2017, 10:26 PM
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It could be 30 years before Charlotte would even be eligible ...or longer if Anne is as long lived as the other females in her family.


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  #3157  
Old 09-17-2017, 05:11 AM
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Titles

The Wessex family do have titles for their children, Lady Louise and Viscount James. Unlike Princess Anne who, though not automatically entitled to titles for her children, could have been granted them by the Queen, but didn't want her kids to have titles.
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  #3158  
Old 09-17-2017, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Nimue View Post
I have read and followed the logic of the arguments on the thread stating that Harry most likely will be granted a Dukedom upon marriage, and while I understand the (apparent) inevitability of such happening, my hope for him is that he will take an earldom because I love the sound of 'Countess' (over 'Duchess').

'Countess' sounds so classy. Plus they could do the cutting-edge thing (in keeping with 'normality') and raise their children without titles (like the Wessexes are doing, like Anne did), thus preparing them for the new world they will inhabit (without royalty). JMO.
What on earth is "classy" about the word Countess? It is just a word and since it signifies a lower rank than duke there is noway that Harry would want it for himself and his wife.
The Wessexes and their children DO have titles, they are Earl and Countess of Wessex and their children are Viscoutnt Severn and Lady Louise MB. And it is intended that in time Edward will become Duke of Edinburgh.
And since Harry's children are royal and close to the throne.. unless the monarchy ends I don't know what you mean by a new world without royalty
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  #3159  
Old 09-17-2017, 06:10 AM
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a new world without royalty
Spoken like a republican .. If you dream of a World without Monarchies, why would you be on 'the Royal Forums' ?
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  #3160  
Old 09-17-2017, 07:32 AM
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The Wessex family do have titles for their children, Lady Louise and Viscount James. Unlike Princess Anne who, though not automatically entitled to titles for her children, could have been granted them by the Queen, but didn't want her kids to have titles.


The Wessex children were eligible to be HRH Prince/Princess. Anne's children were not ever going to be HRH Prince/Princess. So instead of being a Prince, James becomes a Duke in time and Princess Louise is Lady Louise instead. Lady is a pretty common courtesy title. Way more Ladies in the UK than Princess, Dukes aren't that common but there is no great estate tied to the title.
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