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  #3081  
Old 04-24-2017, 03:38 AM
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You're absolutely correct. By using their Scottish titles, they are identifying themselves with where they are and the people that live there. It has a purpose.

For the most part, people know how they like to be addressed. Even though William's nickname could be Billy, he'd kind of look at you funny if you called him that I bet. I'd feel insulted if people insisted on calling me Mrs. Stephen as although that is an appellation that I can legally use being married to my husband, its one I wouldn't like very much at all.

Its all just a matter of semantics. Within the family though, I would bet my last banana that they're very informal and use Christian names and appellations such as Gan-Gan which I find adorable.
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  #3082  
Old 04-24-2017, 04:07 AM
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It is interesting that for some time after becoming Duke of York he did use the Inverness title in Scotland but doesn't anymore. He is the Duke of York everywhere so calling him Earl of Inverness would mean most people wouldn't have the faintest idea who was being talked about.

Other than Charles and the Duke of Cornwall title most people couldn't name any of the other titles of the British royals and so it makes sense to use the titles with which they are most often associated - simply so that people actually know who is being discussed.
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  #3083  
Old 04-24-2017, 04:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
It is interesting that for some time after becoming Duke of York he did use the Inverness title in Scotland but doesn't anymore. He is the Duke of York everywhere so calling him Earl of Inverness would mean most people wouldn't have the faintest idea who was being talked about.

Other than Charles and the Duke of Cornwall title most people couldn't name any of the other titles of the British royals and so it makes sense to use the titles with which they are most often associated - simply so that people actually know who is being discussed.
You are right.
I would personally be confused and I bet I'm not the only one.

By all means use their full title or relevant title as you wish, but you'd have to include a say (Andrew, Duke of York) to avoid lot's of questions asking who it is.
Let's keep it simple, eh?
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  #3084  
Old 04-24-2017, 04:47 PM
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Every peerage is granted starting with the statement "Will and Pleasure". It is not a scientific formula, or list of check marks gets you there. Fortunately it is a small number who have the ability to morph into who they feel like being at a certain time and place.
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  #3085  
Old 04-24-2017, 10:40 PM
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I like subsidiary titles. It's important to know more about their titles and what it means.

It's a shame that the Earl of Inverness (Andrew) doesn't visit Balmoral more. He needs to be more Scottishized.
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  #3086  
Old 04-24-2017, 10:52 PM
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Why? Because he has a Scottish name? Actually, he was probably named after Prince Philip's Greek born father, prince Andrea.

It's more a question of what people like and don't like, IMO. Sarah York, his ex wife, enjoys the life at Balmoral, especially riding about on ponies with the Queen, and so goes there, invited by the Queen (when Prince Philip's absent). Andrew's probably not that keen on horse riding or sitting in coolish weather watching men in kilts tossing cabers.
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  #3087  
Old 04-24-2017, 11:05 PM
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Why? From all I've read and seen, Andrew isn't one of the Windsors that revel in the country pursuits other than golf. I think his interests lie more in promoting trade and industry between the UK and other countries and instilling a good business sense in the up and coming young enterpreneurs. I'd be willing to bet my last donut that Andrew, if polled, would be termed more of a globetrotter than a country gentleman.

For the most part though, the royal family does enjoy their times in Scotland and one thing I look forward every year to seeing is the Queen at the Braemar games.

The royal family gravitates to what they most resonate with and enjoy. If we're talking about associating titles with an area, we have to look no further than Princess Beatrice of York who has taken on several patronages of her own in York.

Titles denote societal status for the most part. Although it is part and parcel of a person's identity, they, for the most part, do not define the person.
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  #3088  
Old 04-24-2017, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Why? Because he has a Scottish name? Actually, he was probably named after Prince Philip's Greek born father, prince Andrea.

It's more a question of what people like and don't like, IMO. Sarah York, his ex wife, enjoys the life at Balmoral, especially riding about on ponies with the Queen, and so goes there, invited by the Queen (when Prince Philip's absent). Andrew's probably not that keen on horse riding or sitting in coolish weather watching men in kilts tossing cabers.
True - he was named after his paternal grand-father, Prince Andrew of Greece.

All his names have a direct familial relationship:

Andrew - paternal grandfather
Albert - maternal grandfather
Christian - paternal and maternal ancestor - Christian IX of Denmark (Elizabeth descended from Christian via his daughter Alexandra while Philip is descended from his second son William - called George in Greece)
Edward - his father's cousin's son - HRH Prince Edward, Duke of Kent -who also happens to be his mother's first cousin, along with being the name of his mother's uncle Edward - Edward VIII (Marina, Duchess of Kent was Philip's first cousin as their father's were brothers).

The Andrew name had nothing to do with being the name of the patron saint of Scotland. If the Queen really wanted to do that she would have done it for all four countries somehow - Patrick, David, George and Andrew but only two of those names appear in any of her four sons even though they all have four names:

Charles Philip Arthur George
Andrew Albert Christian Edward
Edward Antony Richard Louis
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  #3089  
Old 04-30-2017, 02:02 AM
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The issue of royal titles is very confusing. With the discussion in the thread about possible dukedom for Harry, lots of questions have been raised.

I looked online for more information about the history of British royal dukedoms. Wiki gives a rundown, but it's still quite confusing. 'Extant' means 'still in existence.' With the list of all the dukedoms, it seems to me that some of the extinct ones could be brought back into existence, if so desired by the monarch.

For example: Buckingham, Surrey, Exeter, Warwick, et al.

I was wondering about the title, Duke of Buckingham. Apparently, it hasn't been used since 1687:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...in_and_Ireland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Buckingham

Why couldn't that title be renewed, possibly for Harry? Buckingham Palace takes its name from John Sheffield, first Duke of Buckingham and Normandy (1648-1721). The palace was first a house built for Sheffield. In 1762, King George III purchased the Sheffield house for his wife, Queen Charlotte of Mecklenberg-Strelitz (she is said to have Portugese-related African heritage). After Queen Charlotte was given the house by King George III, it became known as The Queen's House. King George IV ordered the house to be converted into a palace during the 1820s.

But I guess since Buckingham is the well known name of the palace, it would never be considered for use as a dukedom again.
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  #3090  
Old 04-30-2017, 02:08 AM
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Warwick isn't available as a Dukedom as there is an existing Earldom and it isn't done to have two people with effectively the same designation in that way.

The problem with Buckingham is that Buckingham Palace is the home of the monarch so having a Duke with that now would suggest that that Duke would live there.

I would like to see that title kept in future for the husband of a Queen Regnant. If Camilla isn't to be Queen maybe Duchess of Buckingham in her own right as that will be her home would be a good compromise and then keep the Buckingham title specifically for the Consort of the monarch.
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  #3091  
Old 04-30-2017, 02:12 AM
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The best known Duke of Buckingham was a boyfriend of King James I, whom Charles I may or may not have had a crush on as well as a very young man after his father's death. I'm not sure the royal family would want that title floated again. (James I was buried next to his 'Steenie'.)
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  #3092  
Old 04-30-2017, 02:14 AM
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The best known Duke of Buckingham was a boyfriend of King James I, whom Charles I may or may not have had a crush on as well as a very young man after his father's death. I'm not sure the royal family would want that title floated again. (James I tomb lay next to his 'Steenie's'.)
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  #3093  
Old 04-30-2017, 02:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Warwick isn't available as a Dukedom as there is an existing Earldom and it isn't done to have two people with effectively the same designation in that way.

The problem with Buckingham is that Buckingham Palace is the home of the monarch so having a Duke with that now would suggest that that Duke would live there.

I would like to see that title kept in future for the husband of a Queen Regnant. If Camilla isn't to be Queen maybe Duchess of Buckingham in her own right as that will be her home would be a good compromise and then keep the Buckingham title specifically for the Consort of the monarch.
Yes, thanks. After thinking about it, I thought it wouldn't really work because the name Buckingham is so associated with the palace now. Same for Kensington. And re Warwick, it's difficult to tell from the List of Dukedoms Wiki link that Warwick is still current as an Earldom (which should be mentioned in their chart rundown, at the least to avoid confusion).

And okay, Curryong, what you say also makes sense. Although how much of these negative historical associations do present members of the royal family know about? Oh well, I suppose if they don't know, there are plenty of historians and genealogical and peerage experts around to inform them.

As you say Curryong, James I re-created the Buckingham title for George Villiers, in 1623 (he wasn't the first to hold the original title, even though he was known as 1st Duke of Buckingham). Villiers is said to have been a boyhood friend of the future Charles 1, and a lover of James 1, who affectionately called him 'Steenie,' after angelic St. Stephen.
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  #3094  
Old 04-30-2017, 02:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Warwick isn't available as a Dukedom as there is an existing Earldom and it isn't done to have two people with effectively the same designation in that way.

The problem with Buckingham is that Buckingham Palace is the home of the monarch so having a Duke with that now would suggest that that Duke would live there.

I would like to see that title kept in future for the husband of a Queen Regnant. If Camilla isn't to be Queen maybe Duchess of Buckingham in her own right as that will be her home would be a good compromise and then keep the Buckingham title specifically for the Consort of the monarch.
The Sovereign is also the Duke of Lancaster. If Camilla is not going be "known as" Queen and one would like to avoid the Princess-Consort thing, she can "be known" with the female form of one the King's subsidiary titles: HRH The Duchess of Lancaster.

That is a real Duchy with a real meaning and a long history to the Crown. I would like that better than create an operetta title as Duke of Cambridge (William has zero comma zero to do with Cambridge). When Clarence House would become Harry's residence, HRH The Duke of Clarence would be a nice sound and it has a relatively recent royal history.

:-)
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  #3095  
Old 04-30-2017, 03:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The Sovereign is also the Duke of Lancaster. If Camilla is not going be "known as" Queen and one would like to avoid the Princess-Consort thing, she can "be known" with the female form of one the King's subsidiary titles: HRH The Duchess of Lancaster.
Sounds good. If I can assume, I don't think Camilla wants this pot to be continually stirred. It's petty. She will be The Queen, but to be called HRH The Duchess of Lancaster sounds classy. JMO. (Forget Princess Consort. It sounds like The Scarlet Letter. Let everyone move on, as many want.)
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  #3096  
Old 04-30-2017, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The Sovereign is also the Duke of Lancaster. If Camilla is not going be "known as" Queen and one would like to avoid the Princess-Consort thing, she can "be known" with the female form of one the King's subsidiary titles: HRH The Duchess of Lancaster.

That is a real Duchy with a real meaning and a long history to the Crown. I would like that better than create an operetta title as Duke of Cambridge (William has zero comma zero to do with Cambridge). When Clarence House would become Harry's residence, HRH The Duke of Clarence would be a nice sound and it has a relatively recent royal history.

:-)
That's all well and good until we have another Queen Regnant. Then, what do you call her spouse, if she is the Duke of Lancaster?

I rather like the idea of calling the spouse of the monarch HRH The Duke/Duchess of Buckingham.
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  #3097  
Old 04-30-2017, 01:57 PM
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She should not have the prince/princess consort like her father-in-law, Prince Philip. She should be styled as Queen Consort, like her grandmother-in-law, Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother.

Camilla should be styled as "Her Majesty The Queen".

When Charles is King, she should not be styled as H.R.H. The Princess Consort and Duchess of Cornwall.

They should be styled as Their Majesties The King and Queen.

By the way, when Charles becomes King, will Camilla still be Duchess of Cornwall, or does that automatically go to her stepdaughter-in-law, Kate?
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  #3098  
Old 04-30-2017, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Westfield Bakery View Post
She should not have the prince/princess consort like her father-in-law, Prince Philip. She should be styled as Queen Consort, like her grandmother-in-law, Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother.

Camilla should be styled as "Her Majesty The Queen".

When Charles is King, she should not be styled as H.R.H. The Princess Consort and Duchess of Cornwall.

They should be styled as Their Majesties The King and Queen.

By the way, when Charles becomes King, will Camilla still be Duchess of Cornwall, or does that automatically go to her stepdaughter-in-law, Kate?
When Charles becomes King, The Duchess of Cornwall will be his daughter-in-law Catherine. William automatically becomes the Duke of Cornwall the minute his father becomes King.

Charles can then decide to create his eldest son The Prince of Wales. Then Kate would be The Princess of Wales and most likely use that as her primary title.
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  #3099  
Old 04-30-2017, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Westfield Bakery View Post
She should not have the prince/princess consort like her father-in-law, Prince Philip. She should be styled as Queen Consort, like her grandmother-in-law, Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother.

Camilla should be styled as "Her Majesty The Queen".

When Charles is King, she should not be styled as H.R.H. The Princess Consort and Duchess of Cornwall.

They should be styled as Their Majesties The King and Queen.

By the way, when Charles becomes King, will Camilla still be Duchess of Cornwall, or does that automatically go to her stepdaughter-in-law, Kate?

BTW, Prince Philip does not have the title of "Prince Consort". King George VI originally made him an HRH and the Duke of Edinburgh, but, at that time, he wasn't even a prince himself. Queen Elizabeth II (much later) made him a "prince of the United Kingdom", but not "the Prince Consort".
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  #3100  
Old 04-30-2017, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The Sovereign is also the Duke of Lancaster. If Camilla is not going be "known as" Queen and one would like to avoid the Princess-Consort thing, she can "be known" with the female form of one the King's subsidiary titles: HRH The Duchess of Lancaster.

That is a real Duchy with a real meaning and a long history to the Crown. I would like that better than create an operetta title as Duke of Cambridge (William has zero comma zero to do with Cambridge). When Clarence House would become Harry's residence, HRH The Duke of Clarence would be a nice sound and it has a relatively recent royal history.

:-)
Operetta? Cambridge has been created 4 or 5 times as a dukedom including for the future King George II. Strong royal ties.

Hereditary dukedoms under UK law are a non-corporeal form of property. Nothing to do with having a physical duchy attached to it.
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