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  #3041  
Old 04-17-2017, 02:05 AM
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Thanks for the heads up Duc and I'm definitely going to keep an eye out for it if it is ever shown here in the States. I'm just learning and I do find the subject fascinating with all the ins and outs and how it all works.

For the most part, royal princes are created royal dukes as they reach their majority (or in the case now, marry). There is a big difference between a royal duke and a noble duke when it comes to precedence. Precedence is really where the rank and file come in. As I said, as far as princes go, now in the UK its only Prince Michael of Kent (his brother Edward inherited the peerage)who is not an hereditary peer and the case of Edward who is the Earl of Wessex and eventually will be created The Duke of Edinburgh - also a hereditary peerage. For the most part now, hereditary peerages are few and far between.

It is most reasonable to assume that if and when Harry marries, he will be created a duke at that time.
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  #3042  
Old 04-17-2017, 07:11 AM
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Yes of course he will.. no question.. problaby Duke of Sussex. And yes a royal duke is not the same as a "noble" Duke. He does not have a seat in the Lords.. it is a mark of honour given on arrival at years of maturity usually when a prince marries.
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  #3043  
Old 04-17-2017, 07:40 AM
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I just typed a long reply but it disappeared when my train company ended its 15 minutes of free WiFi!

Long story short, no it's not the same thing taking a husband's surname as taking his first name too. A family all having the same surname makes sense, whether the husband's the wife's or a combination of both. Taking his first name too means you just become an extension of him, you no longer have your own identity. My husband agrees and hates it when his older relatives call me Mrs Mark Oursurame. If you like it, you are welcome to it, but I hate it.
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  #3044  
Old 04-17-2017, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
Yes of course he will.. no question.. problaby Duke of Sussex. And yes a royal duke is not the same as a "noble" Duke. He does not have a seat in the Lords.. it is a mark of honour given on arrival at years of maturity usually when a prince marries.
Actually, before the House of Lords Act 1999, a royal duke could, if he wanted to, sit and vote in the House of Lords. Currently, no hereditary peer can sit in the House unless he holds the offices of Earl Marshal or Lord Great Chamberlain, or is elected by the House to take one of the 90 additional seats still reserved for hereditary peers.

For all intents and purposes, a royal dukedom is equal then to an ordinary hereditary dukedom in the peerage of the UK. The only difference is that a royal duke is also a prince of the United Kingdom and, therefore, an HRH. The Earl of Ulster and the Earl of St Andrews, who are not princes themselves, will be ordinary Dukes of Gloucester and Kent respectively ("His Grace" , not "His Royal Highness") when they succeed their fathers in the peerage.

Note the difference then between what happens in the UK and the situation, for example, in Spain where the dukedoms awarded to the infantas or infantes are personal (i.e non-hereditary) titles which can be actually revoked at any time by the king, as was the case with Infanta Cristina. Whereas new hereditary dukedoms in the Spanish nobility may be currently still awarded by the king under Art. 61 of the Spanish constitution, royal dukedoms are awarded separately, and exclusively to members of the king's family, under the royal decree 1368/1987. In the UK, as I understand it, a new hereditary peerage is awarded by Letters Patent whether the recepient is royal (i.e a prince) or not.

Quote:

Royal Decree 1368/1987, Chapter III
Art. 6.º

El uso de títulos de nobleza, pertenecientes a la Casa Real, solamente podrá ser autorizado por el Titular de la Corona a los miembros de su Familia. La atribución del uso de dichos títulos tendrá carácter graciable, personal y vitalicio.
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  #3045  
Old 04-18-2017, 11:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post

Richard III was Duke of Gloucester because his father had given him that title.
.
Just a small correction: Edward IV created his then nine-year-old brother Richard Duke of Gloucester in 1461 shortly after claiming the throne; his twelve-year-old brother George was created Duke of Clarence near the same time. George, of course, would rebel against his brother the king once too often and paid for it with his life.
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  #3046  
Old 04-18-2017, 11:41 PM
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Oops - of course it was his brother and not his father.

Age catching up and forgetting that Edward IV and Richard III were brothers.
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  #3047  
Old 04-18-2017, 11:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Oops - of course it was his brother and not his father.

Age catching up and forgetting that Edward IV and Richard III were brothers.
I hear you about the age It's also easy to forget just how young the York Kings were: Edward IV was only 19 when he won the throne and only 40 when he died, and Richard III became King at 30 and died at 32.
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  #3048  
Old 04-21-2017, 07:47 PM
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Is it possible that Kate could be a future Queen Mother?

Catherine (Kate), the Duchess of Cambridge and Countess of Strathearn, is widely expected to be Queen consort once William becomes His Majesty King William V. If William dies, and George becomes king, do you see Kate being the next Queen Mother as her great-grandmother-in-law?
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  #3049  
Old 04-21-2017, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westfield Bakery View Post
Catherine (Kate), the Duchess of Cambridge and Countess of Strathearn, is widely expected to be Queen consort once William becomes His Majesty King William V. If William dies, and George becomes king, do you see Kate being the next Queen Mother as her great-grandmother-in-law?
I think that when George becomes King, Kate will be known just as Queen Catherine (providing William served as monarch). The sole reason that Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother was used so much was that she shared the same name as her daughter.
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  #3050  
Old 04-22-2017, 01:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westfield Bakery View Post
Catherine (Kate), the Duchess of Cambridge and Countess of Strathearn, is widely expected to be Queen consort once William becomes His Majesty King William V. If William dies, and George becomes king, do you see Kate being the next Queen Mother as her great-grandmother-in-law?
Legally she would be. If you are the mother of the king you are queen mum. If you are the wife of the late queen, but not the mother of the new, you'd be dowager queen. Camilla will be dowager, as the former queen consort but not the mother of the new king. Kate will be queen mum, as mother of the new king, when George is king,

But that said they will both be addressed the sane way. When you are the current queen consort you are simply HM the Queen. When you are dowager or queen mum, you use your name. They would be Queen Camilla and Queen Catherine. When William is king there will be HM the Queen Consort and Queen Camilla if she outlives her husband.

The queen mum is not usually used in address. The queen mum did because her abd the new queen shared the same name. Unless George marries a woman named Catherine, it's highly unlikely Kate would be actively called queen mum.
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  #3051  
Old 04-22-2017, 02:07 PM
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If the Edinburgh title is recreated for Edward

This has been discussed for years and I love this discussion because of the Edinburgh title.

If it is to be recreated for Edward, will Edward and Sophie be known as Their Royal Highnesses The Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh? Will their Wessex titles be included?

Will Viscount Severn be known as H.R.H. Prince James of Edinburgh and Wessex?, or just H.R.H. Prince James of Edinburgh?
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  #3052  
Old 04-22-2017, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westfield Bakery View Post
This has been discussed for years and I love this discussion because of the Edinburgh title.

If it is to be recreated for Edward, will Edward and Sophie be known as Their Royal Highnesses The Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh? Will their Wessex titles be included?

Will Viscount Severn be known as H.R.H. Prince James of Edinburgh and Wessex?, or just H.R.H. Prince James of Edinburgh?
My understanding is that Edward will hold both titles , i.e Duke of Edinburgh and Earl of Wessex (as the latter won't be revoked), but he will probably be referred to only by his highest title in the peerage, i.e Duke of Edinburgh, whereas Earl of Wessex would become a subsidiary title.

We don't know if Edward's children will be HRHs in the future, although they have been actually legally entitled to have such style from birth. If they become HRHs, I assume their titles would be Prince/Princess [xxx] of Edinburgh, rather than "of Edinburgh and Wessex". If, however, James continues to be styled simply as the eldest son of a duke, then I assume he might use the courtesy title of Earl of Wessex or some other other subsidiary title that may come together with the dukedom award for Edward.
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  #3053  
Old 04-22-2017, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
My understanding is that Edward will hold both titles , i.e Duke of Edinburgh and Earl of Wessex (as the latter won't be revoked), but he will probably be referred to only by his highest title in the peerage, i.e Duke of Edinburgh, whereas Earl of Wessex would become a subsidiary title.

We don't know if Edward's children will be HRHs in the future, although they have been actually legally entitled to have such style from birth. If they become HRHs, I assume their titles would be Prince/Princess [xxx] of Edinburgh, rather than "of Edinburgh and Wessex". If, however, James continues to be styled simply as the eldest son of a duke, then I assume he might use the courtesy title of Earl of Wessex or some other other subsidiary title that may come together with the dukedom award for Edward.
ALso When titles are shared, ie Duke of Cornwall and York (this example applies to George V) when his father became king), the titles are of equal rank, ie both Dukedoms.
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  #3054  
Old 04-22-2017, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
My understanding is that Edward will hold both titles , i.e Duke of Edinburgh and Earl of Wessex (as the latter won't be revoked), but he will probably be referred to only by his highest title in the peerage, i.e Duke of Edinburgh, whereas Earl of Wessex would become a subsidiary title.

We don't know if Edward's children will be HRHs in the future, although they have been actually legally entitled to have such style from birth. If they become HRHs, I assume their titles would be Prince/Princess [xxx] of Edinburgh, rather than "of Edinburgh and Wessex". If, however, James continues to be styled simply as the eldest son of a duke, then I assume he might use the courtesy title of Earl of Wessex or some other other subsidiary title that may come together with the dukedom award for Edward.
Viscount Severn, Earl of Merioneth? Some see Charles as technically "Earl of Merioneth" since he is Philip's heir as his eldest son. William should also be technically "Baron Greenwich".
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  #3055  
Old 04-22-2017, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westfield Bakery View Post
Viscount Severn, Earl of Merioneth? Some see Charles as technically "Earl of Merioneth" since he is Philip's heir as his eldest son. William should also be technically "Baron Greenwich".
He wouldn't be Viscount Severn, Earl of Merioneth as Earl trumps Viscount. His fathers primary subsidiary title is Earl of Wessex which is what James will most likely take on.
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  #3056  
Old 04-22-2017, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
He wouldn't be Viscount Severn, Earl of Merioneth as Earl trumps Viscount. His fathers primary subsidiary title is Earl of Wessex which is what James will most likely take on.
So when Edward becomes Duke of Edinburgh, the Earldom of Wessex will fall to James automatically?
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  #3057  
Old 04-22-2017, 04:41 PM
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What becomes of the Edinburgh title if Edward decides to remain Earl of Wessex?

Does his son get it, or will it be given to someone else in the family?
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  #3058  
Old 04-22-2017, 05:02 PM
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Questions about British Styles and Titles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westfield Bakery View Post
So when Edward becomes Duke of Edinburgh, the Earldom of Wessex will fall to James automatically?
Doesn't work like that. James doesn't become The Earl of Wessex, Edward is still the holder of the title. James just uses the title. But as EOW is now Edwards first subsidiary title, that's the one James would use.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirabel View Post
What becomes of the Edinburgh title if Edward decides to remain Earl of Wessex?

Does his son get it, or will it be given to someone else in the family?

Seeing as Edinburgh isn't automatic, it has to go through the motions before Edward gets it. If he decided he didn't want it, it would never be issued to him. Merging with the crown and remaining there until its re-issue for George's children possible.
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  #3059  
Old 04-22-2017, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirabel View Post
What becomes of the Edinburgh title if Edward decides to remain Earl of Wessex?

Does his son get it, or will it be given to someone else in the family?

It probably merges in the Crown when Charles is king, or it goes to William or George.

It would be nice to see Edward as a Duke, and James as a prince of Edinburgh.
When James marries, his wife should be Princess James of Edinburgh.
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  #3060  
Old 04-22-2017, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirabel View Post
What becomes of the Edinburgh title if Edward decides to remain Earl of Wessex?

Does his son get it, or will it be given to someone else in the family?
If he did not want it, it would be free after Philip was gone.. to be given to another royal male..but He's sure to accept it...
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