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  #3021  
Old 04-16-2017, 08:43 PM
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I am not too sure whether Camilla will be styled as a Queen Consort. I've heard sources saying she will be a Princess Consort instead. Can anyone clear this up?
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  #3022  
Old 04-16-2017, 09:08 PM
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There is a thread about Camilla's future title in the Charles and Camilla section.

Even as the Queen Consort you really don't use your first name. It's just HM The Queen or The King . Others may use Queen Name when talking about you.
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  #3023  
Old 04-16-2017, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Anfisa View Post
I am not too sure whether Camilla will be styled as a Queen Consort. I've heard sources saying she will be a Princess Consort instead. Can anyone clear this up?
Will and should Camilla use the title of Queen when Charles becomes King?

This issue was discussed in some detail in the past.
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  #3024  
Old 04-16-2017, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Will and should Camilla use the title of Queen when Charles becomes King?

This issue was discussed in some detail in the past.
Sorry :P I guess I should stop being lazy and do some scrolling..
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  #3025  
Old 04-16-2017, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Squirrel View Post
I meant as a queen consort of course.

I think it is silly using the husband's first name eg Princess William. It should be Princess Catherine. Yes I know they usually get a title eg Dukedom and are known as Duchess etc. But the British royal family have to be different. Princess Charlene of Monaco isn't known as Princess Albert!

I also, by the way, hate being addressed by my husband's first name! I took his surname but not his first name! I've told my mother-in-law and she doesn't do it anymore, nor his grandmother. But his dad and one aunt still do it and I hate seeing "Mrs Mark Oursurname" on envelopes, so patriarchal and makes me want to scream! Lol. It's "Mrs Squirrel Oursurname"
It's classic and appropriate. I sometimes call Camilla and Kate "Princess Charles" and "Princess William". Whoever Harry's wife is, it would be good to keep the the territorial title and be named as Princess Henry.
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  #3026  
Old 04-16-2017, 09:17 PM
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Don't worry about it just not a straightforward answer when it comes to Camilla's title.
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  #3027  
Old 04-16-2017, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Westfield Bakery View Post
It's classic and appropriate. I sometimes call Camilla and Kate "Princess Charles" and "Princess William". Whoever Harry's wife is, it would be good to keep the the territorial title and be named as Princess Henry.
Why would you refer to them by a lower title?

Princess is after all the style of a commoner while Duchess is the wife of a peer of the realm - a higher status title.

When you refer to them as Princess ... you are actually demoting them and I wonder why you would do that unless you don't think they are worthy of being the wives of peers of the realm.
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  #3028  
Old 04-16-2017, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Why would you refer to them by a lower title?

Princess is after all the style of a commoner while Duchess is the wife of a peer of the realm - a higher status title.

When you refer to them as Princess ... you are actually demoting them and I wonder why you would do that unless you don't think they are worthy of being the wives of peers of the realm.
Sometimes I call them that because they legally take the name of their husbands.
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  #3029  
Old 04-16-2017, 09:57 PM
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When you look at the title Princess William, Duchess of Cambridge, the duchess title is the higher title.

Of course we're always going to have places like the Daily Fail that will still use Kate Middleton, Princess Kate and Duchess Kate and even Camilla Parker-Bowles. If I remember correctly, Diana used to correct people that called her "Princess Diana" as that was never her title.
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  #3030  
Old 04-16-2017, 09:58 PM
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So why not use their highest titles rather than their lowest?

I want to know why you would demote them?

I call them Camilla and Kate but would never call them Princess Charles or Princess William. I use their highest titles rather than lower their status to that of princess - the lowest rung on the ladder below even that of Baroness.
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  #3031  
Old 04-16-2017, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
When you look at the title Princess William, Duchess of Cambridge, the duchess title is the higher title.

Of course we're always going to have places like the Daily Fail that will still use Kate Middleton, Princess Kate and Duchess Kate and even Camilla Parker-Bowles. If I remember correctly, Diana used to correct people that called her "Princess Diana" as that was never her title.
She did that on many occasions as she knew she wasn't Princess Diana but HRH The Princess of Wales etc or simply Diana but never Princess Diana.

I suspect another reason for correcting people was that she also knew that calling her Princess Diana was actually demeaning her by calling her a commoner and giving her such a low ranked title as Princess.
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  #3032  
Old 04-16-2017, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
So why not use their highest titles rather than their lowest?

I want to know why you would demote them?

I call them Camilla and Kate but would never call them Princess Charles or Princess William. I use their highest titles rather than lower their status to that of princess - the lowest rung on the ladder below even that of Baroness.
I don't think it is demotion. It's their legal names. To show respect to them and their husbands. The same for Sarah, the former Princess Andrew. It is a sign of respect. They are princesses by marriage. To respect them, I call them Princesses Charles and William.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-13099871

People call them "Princess Diana", "Princess Kate", "Princess Catherine" because it is what the rest of the world knows them as although they are a princess by marriage.
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  #3033  
Old 04-16-2017, 10:26 PM
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It isn't their legal names but rather their titles. It has been stated by LPs that if and when any of the Queen's descendants have a need of a legal surname, it would be Mountbatten-Windsor. This is the surname that William used filing a lawsuit in Paris as in France, his titles are not recognized.

Both Charles and Anne, I believe signed their marriage registries "Mountbatten-Windsor" also.
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  #3034  
Old 04-16-2017, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westfield Bakery View Post
I don't think it is demotion. It's their legal names. To show respect to them and their husbands. The same for Sarah, the former Princess Andrew. It is a sign of respect. They are princesses by marriage. To respect them, I call them Princesses Charles and William.

Royal wedding: What do we call her? - BBC News

People call them "Princess Diana", "Princess Kate", "Princess Catherine" because it is what the rest of the world knows them as although they are a princess by marriage.

It is a demotion.

Their husbands have higher title than that of Prince. Prince is the lowest title not the highest.

To use the lowest title rather than the highest is to deliberately demote them - from wife of a peer of the realm to commoner.

As a mere Prince they are commoners while as a Duke they are a peer of the realm and thus to refer to the wife of a peer of the realm with a style that is that of a commoner is a clear demotion.

William was promoted from commoner to peer of the realm when he went from Prince to Duke and so his wife went with him from wife of a commoner to wife of a peer. To use the style of a wife of a commoner is to say that he husband was never promoted to peer of the realm.

I suspect that like many Americans you think that Prince/Princess is the highest title when it is in fact that lowest.

The only married in wife who uses Princess is Princess Michael of Kent whose husband has no higher title for her to use because he was only the second son. The current Duchess of Gloucester used to use Princess Richard but then her husband became the Duke and so she stopped using Princess Richard because he husband went from being a commoner to being a peer of the realm.

Peers of the realm are most assuredly higher in rank than any commoner and so using the style of a commoner is a demotion.
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  #3035  
Old 04-16-2017, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
It is a demotion.

Their husbands have higher title than that of Prince. Prince is the lowest title not the highest.

To use the lowest title rather than the highest is to deliberately demote them - from wife of a peer of the realm to commoner.

As a mere Prince they are commoners while as a Duke they are a peer of the realm and thus to refer to the wife of a peer of the realm with a style that is that of a commoner is a clear demotion.
Umm a peer is not higher than a prince there is hundreds of peers of the realm but there is only ten princes of the united kingdom even the premier Duke in the peerage of England The Duke of Norfolk wouldn't be higher than the title of prince michael of ken .
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  #3036  
Old 04-16-2017, 11:05 PM
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The difference lies in the fact that the Duke of Norfolk is a peer of the UK while Prince Michael of Kent is not and is a commoner.

For the most part, all princes are royal dukes with the exception of Michael and Edward who is titled as an Earl with the understanding that in the future he will be created The Duke of Edinburgh.
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  #3037  
Old 04-16-2017, 11:16 PM
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If Prince/princess is lower, was Diana subordinate to Sarah Ferguson then? Diana was Princess of Wales. Sarah Duchess of York. Prince Daniel of Sweden is Duke too, but everybody calls him Prince Daniel. I would rather be called princess than duchess. Princess means you are a member of the royal family. Lots of dukes and duchesses are not members of the royal family event the Duke of Norfolk. They are usually cousins only at the closest.

Of course this tradition, whether you like it or not, is extremely historical. Before he was king and was just the king's brother, Richard III was referred to as the Duke of Gloucester, even though he was of course a prince.

I don't like calling a lady by a man's first name though. That's misogyny. I do think the husband of a princess should be a prince if they both so wish, just as much as a prince can make his wife a princess.
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  #3038  
Old 04-16-2017, 11:33 PM
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On the Diana angle, she was styled as The Princess of Wales but she also had the right to use the feminine version of any of Charles' titles. She could have opted to use, like Camilla does, the style of The Duchess of Cornwall.

The fact remains that in the UK, a woman takes her titles and styles from her father as a maiden (such as Lady Diana Spencer when her father became The Earl Spencer) and then her husband's on marriage. Even Princesses of the UK that married nobility were styled such as HRH Princess Alexandra, The Honorable Lady Ogilvy.

Prince and Princess just denote that those that carry that style are children or grandchildren of the monarch. They take that title from their parent/grandparent the same way that Master and Miss do.

Calling The Duchess of Cambridge "Princess William" is very similar to looking at a married woman in the US and calling her Mrs. Robert or Mrs. Mike or Mrs Joseph. In the UK though, women do use Princess (husband's) name if that husband does not hold a higher title that Prince hence how we get Princess Michael of Kent.

Perhaps with the birth of George and the rule of primogeniture change that the first born, regardless of gender, will be heir, the other titles eventually will follow suit. I'm not holding my breath on that one though.
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  #3039  
Old 04-16-2017, 11:44 PM
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Princess of Wales is a title and thus different to Princess Anne as Princess then is a style.

Diana was never Princess Diana but HRH The Princess of Wales. If she was Princess anything she was Princess Charles. She was also Duchess of Cornwall and Duchess of Rothesay. Of course she wasn't subordinate to Sarah because Sarah was Duchess of York.

Both were princesses but their titles came from their husbands.

The UK does styles and titles differently to the Europeans so comparing any of the Europeans to the UK isn't appropriate.

Princess though is a lower styling than Duchess as I said regardless of whether one is royal or not.

A non-royal Duchess still the wife of a peer of the realm while a Princess is a commoner and that is the important distinction e.g. Harry can stand for election to the House of Commons but William can't anymore. He could while a mere Prince but not as a peer of the realm.

The British don't believe in making the husbands of princesses princes unless the princess concerned is going to be the future monarch.

They also don't pass HRH through the female line under the existing rules and that isn't going to change any time soon. It is more likely that the HRH will be more restricted by the time George and Charlotte are having children so that only George's children will be HRH's anyway (limiting the HRHs to the children of the heir to the throne and that direct line rather than the collateral lines - so not for Harry's kids)

Richard III was Duke of Gloucester because his father had given him that title.

By the time of George III and Queen Victoria is was a very important thing to do - to stop the younger sons from standing as elected members of the House of Commons and so they were given peerages.

The Duke of Norfolk is the senior Duke. When the present Dukes of Gloucester and Kent pass on their sons will take their positions as Duke basing their precedence on the date of the titles and so will be behind many of the existing Dukes. Like many of the other Dukes etc they are descendants of kings in the past.

The UK has only just allowed for gender blind succession and yet they were one of the first to allow a woman to inherit the throne - after her brothers had had their turn or if there were no brothers. They are ahead of Spain in passing that legislation - they haven't yet done so.

Traditionally all women take their husband's names on marriage - either as a surname or a title. Why stop at objecting to a woman taking a man's first name? Why not regard it as sexist for a woman to take any part of a man's name at all? It is just as sexist to call a women Duchess based on her husband's title as to call her princess husband's name.
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  #3040  
Old 04-17-2017, 01:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
The difference lies in the fact that the Duke of Norfolk is a peer of the UK while Prince Michael of Kent is not and is a commoner.

For the most part, all princes are royal dukes with the exception of Michael and Edward who is titled as an Earl with the understanding that in the future he will be created The Duke of Edinburgh.
The last successive Governments have created Peers with an astonishing speed. Anyone who has seen the BBC documentaries a few weeks ago, will have seen that the once so distinghuised House of Lords has become an absolutely overcrowded geriatic reserve.

In your way of thinking a Prince Henry of Wales or a Prince Michael of Kent are "lower" than any (Life) Peer. That is a framework which has as a starting point that the Constitution constitutes of the King, the Lords, the Bishops and the commoners.

The fact that "real lords" have become rare in the House of Lords (it are almost all commoners given a life peerage) and the fact that Peers can run for any local council or the European Parliament and sit together with "commoners" but is not allowed to run for the Commons as a Peer, is on of those strange "logics" of the British system. The BBC documentary series was worth watching. It looks nice, those scarlet-dressed Lords and Ladies during a State Opening of Parliament but the closer look was pretty desillusioning. Such a scarlet cladded "Lord" can be a mumbling former MP which walks in sneakers, had his tie hanging in the soup during lunch but nevertheless puts on smelly scarlet rags over it to see the Queen. Any idea you had of the House of Lords will need adjustment after this documentary.

That Prince Henry and Prince Michael are "lower" than a Peer may be technically true but everyone knows that real life is different.
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