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  #281  
Old 03-24-2007, 05:27 PM
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Ah yes, I see. So perhaps she was saying that when TRH die, their royal dukedoms revert back to the crown, leaving out what she assumed was second natural understanding that the titles will automatically be reissued as regular dukedoms?

In order for the dukedoms to lose the royal status, there must be a reverting back and reissue because otherwise the loss of the royal honorifics would not make sense.
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  #282  
Old 03-24-2007, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CasiraghiTrio
In order for the dukedoms to lose the royal status, there must be a reverting back and reissue because otherwise the loss of the royal honorifics would not make sense.
Well, in fact nothing regarding their peerages is reverted. But the 3rd Duke of Gloucester and the 3rd Duke of Kent will make an enormous downfall in terms of hierarchy.

Because the present Earl of St. Andrews and the Earl of Ulster are no sons of grandsons of a Sovereign, they are no Princes. As a result of that they also are no HRH. And as a result of that they fall out of the Court Hierarchy, in which their fathers the present Duke of Gloucester and the present Duke of Kent are so high ranked.

The 3rd Duke of Gloucester and the 3rd Duke of Kent come last after the Dukes of the Peerage of England, the Dukes of the Peerage of Scotland, the Dukes of the Peerage of Ireland, the Dukes of the Peerage of Great Britain and finally all Dukes of the Peerage of the United Kingdom who outrank them in anciennity (only the creations of Edinburgh and York are younger).

Their precedence would be, fictional, today:
  1. Edward Fitzalan-Howard, The Most Noble the (18th) Duke of Norfolk
  2. John Seymour, His Grace the (19th) Duke of Somerset
  3. Charles Gordon-Lennox, His Grace the (10th) Duke of Richmond
  4. Hugh FitzRoy, His Grace the (11th) Duke of Grafton
  5. David Somerset, His Grace the (11th) Duke of Beaufort
  6. Murray Beauclerk, His Grace the (14th) Duke of St Albans
  7. Andrew Russell, His Grace the (15th) Duke of Bedford
  8. Peregrine Cavendish, His Grace the (12th) Duke of Devonshire
  9. John Spencer-Churchill, His Grace the (11th) Duke of Marlborough
  10. David Manners, His Grace the (11th) Duke of Rutland
  11. Angus Douglas-Hamilton, His Grace the (15th) Duke of Hamilton
  12. John Scott, His Grace the (9th) Duke of Buccleuch
  13. Torquhil Campbell, His Grace the (13th) Duke of Argyll
  14. John Murray, His Grace the (11th) Duke of Atholl
  15. James Graham, His Grace the (8th) Duke of Montrose
  16. Guy Innes-Ker, His Grace the (10th) Duke of Roxburghe
  17. Alexander Montagu, His Grace the (13th) Duke of Manchester
  18. Ralph Percy, His Grace the (12th) Duke of Northumberland
  19. Maurice FitzGerald, His Grace the (9th) Duke of Leinster
  20. James Hamilton, His Grace the (5th) Duke of Abercorn and (7th) Duke of Sutherland
  21. Arthur Wellesley, His Grace the (8th) Duke of Wellington
  22. Francis Egerton, His Grace the (7th) Duke of Sutherland
  23. Gerald Grosvenor, His Grace the (6th) Duke of Westminster
  24. James Carnegie, His Grace the (3rd) Duke of Fife
  25. Arthur Wellesley, His Grace the (8th) Duke of Wellington
  26. Gerald Grosvenor, His Grace the (6th) Duke of Westminster
  27. James Carnegie, His Grace the (3rd) Duke of Fife
  28. Alexander Windsor, His Grace the (3rd) Duke of Gloucester
  29. George Windsor, His Grace the (3rd) Duke of Kent
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  #283  
Old 03-24-2007, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.
No, after the death of HRH Prince Edward of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the 2nd Duke of Kent, his son Lord George Windsor, the Earl of St. Andrews will become the 3rd Duke of Kent.

And after the death of HRH Prince Richard of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the 2nd Duke of Gloucester, his son Lord Alexander Windsor, the Earl of Ulster, will become the 3rd Duke of Gloucester.

But as both the Earl of St. Andrews and the Earl of Ulster are no sons or grandsons of a Sovereign, their Dukedom will cease to be a royal dukedom.

Their style will change from a royal dukedom into a normal dukedom with the style 'His Grace the Duke of Kent' / 'His Grace the Duke of Gloucester'.

Upon the deaths of Princes Edward and Richard, their dukedoms pass automatically to their surviving male issue, but they lose the qualification of Royal Highness under the 1917 Letters Patent of George V as great-grandsons in the male line of The Sovereign.

However, the dukedoms are considered royal since Kent and Gloucester are only granted to sons and grandsons of a Sovereign. Once there is no longer a male heir, they revert back to the Crown and are available again to be re-created for another member of the royal family in the future.
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  #284  
Old 03-24-2007, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.
Well, in fact nothing regarding their peerages is reverted. But the 3rd Duke of Gloucester and the 3rd Duke of Kent will make an enormous downfall in terms of hierarchy.
Their precedence follows their place in the line of succession to the throne as descendants of George V, assuming they remain in union with The Church of England.
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  #285  
Old 03-24-2007, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
Their precedence follows their place in the line of succession to the throne as descendants of George V, assuming they remain in union with The Church of England.
Are we talking about the same precedence in society?

You mean that Zara Phillips or Arthur Chatto, or James Ogilvy, or Zenouska Mowatt do outrank someone like The Most Noble Edward Fitzalan-Howard, Duke of Norfolk, Premier Duke and Premier Earl of England, the Earl Marshal?

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  #286  
Old 03-24-2007, 09:27 PM
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Henri, why does your list have some peers listed twice?

For example, the Duke of Sutherland and the Duke of Westminster? One person cannot occupy two different positions in the rank of precedence.
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  #287  
Old 03-25-2007, 05:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
Upon the deaths of Princes Edward and Richard, their dukedoms pass automatically to their surviving male issue, but they lose the qualification of Royal Highness under the 1917 Letters Patent of George V as great-grandsons in the male line of The Sovereign.

However, the dukedoms are considered royal since Kent and Gloucester are only granted to sons and grandsons of a Sovereign. Once there is no longer a male heir, they revert back to the Crown and are available again to be re-created for another member of the royal family in the future.
Found this at wiki:

In the United Kingdom, there is nothing about the particular dukedom that makes it 'royal'. Rather, these peerages are called "royal dukedoms" because they are held by a member of the royal family who is entitled to the style Royal Highness. Although the term "royal duke" therefore has no official meaning per se, the category "duke of the Blood Royal" was acknowledged as a rank conferring special precedence at court in the unrevoked 20th clause of the Lord Chamberlain's order of 1520. This decree accorded precedence to any peer related by blood to the Sovereign above all others of the same degree within the peerage. The order did not apply within Parliament, nor did it grant precedence above the Archbishop of Canterbury or other Great Officers of State such as is now enjoyed by royal dukes. But it placed junior Dukes of the Blood Royal above the most senior non-royal duke, junior Earls of the Blood Royal above the most senior non-royal earl, etc. It did not matter how distantly related to the monarch the peers might be (presumably they ranked among each other in order of succession to the Crown). Although legally "time does not run against the King", so that the 1520 order is theoretically still in effect, in fact the "Blood Royal" clause seems to have fallen into desuetude sometime in the 19th century. Thus peers of the Blood Royal who are not grandchildren of a Sovereign no longer enjoy precedence above other peers.
Under the 20 November 1917, Letters Patent of King George V, the titular dignity of Prince/Princess and the style Royal Highness are restricted to the sons of a Sovereign, the sons of a Sovereign's sons, and the eldest living son of the eldest son of a Prince of Wales. For example, when the current Duke of Gloucester and Duke of Kent are succeeded by their eldest sons, the Earl of Ulster and the Earl of St. Andrews, respectively, those peerages (or rather, the 1928 and 1934 creations of them) will cease to be royal dukedoms, instead the title holders will become ordinary Dukes. The third dukes of Gloucester and Kent will each be styled "His Grace" because as great grandsons of George V, they are not Princes and are not styled HRH. Similarly, upon the death of Prince Arthur, Duke of Connaught (1850-1942), the third son of Queen Victoria, his only male-line grandson, Alastair Arthur Windsor, Earl of MacDuff (1914-1943), briefly succeeded to his peerages. However, as a duke, the second Duke of Connaught, a male-line great grandson of Queen Victoria, he was simply styled "His Grace".


I found the link to the Lord Chamberlain's Order of 1520 most interesting. And an additional thought: as the souverain can confer precedence to a dukedom (not only court precedence but precedence in society, too) one needs to see the origianal Letters Patent to see if it was done or not.
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  #288  
Old 03-25-2007, 05:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
Henri, why does your list have some peers listed twice?

For example, the Duke of Sutherland and the Duke of Westminster? One person cannot occupy two different positions in the rank of precedence.
The Duke of Sutherland is Lord Francis Egerton.
The Duke of Westminster is Lord Gerald Grosvenor.
So they are different persons.


But I see I have mistyped the Duke of Westminster twice on 23 and 26.
My excuses, there is only one Duke of Westminster, of course.
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  #289  
Old 03-25-2007, 06:19 AM
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The Letters Patent for the present Royal Peers:

For Gloucester, Kent, Edinburgh, York and Wessex there were 'normal' Letters Patent meaning that they are 'normal' Peers which are ranked in the Peerage according their rank and date of creation on the moment they do no longer fall under the workings of the Letters Patent of December 11th 1917 (= no son or grandson to the Sovereign or the eldest grandson of The Prince of Wales)

Gloucester
By Letters Patent under the Great Seal of the Realm by date of March 31st 1928 was lawfully begotten unto His Majesty's son, His Royal Highness The Prince Henry William Frederick Albert, K.G., G.C.V.O., Captain 10th Royal Hussars and the heirs male of his body the dignities of Baron Culloden, Earl of Ulster and Duke of Gloucester.

Kent
By Letters Patent under the Great Seal of the Realm by date of March 31st 1928 was lawfully begotten unto His Majesty's son, His Royal Highness The Prince George Edward Alexander Edmund, K.G., G.C.M.G., G.C.V.O. and the heirs male of his body the dignities of Baron Downpatrick, Earl of St Andrews and Duke of Kent.

Edinburgh
By Letters Patent under the Great Seal of the Realm by date of February 2nd 1957 was lawfully begotten unto Lieutenant His Royal Highness Sir Philip Mountbatten, K.G., R.N. and the heirs male of his body the dignities of Baron Greenwich in the County of London, Earl of Merioneth and Duke of Edinburgh.

York
By Letters Patent under the Great Seal of the Realm by date of July 29th 1986 was lawfully begotten unto Her Majesty's son His Royal Highness The Prince Andrew Albert Christian Edward, C.V.O. and the heirs male of his body the dignities of Baron Killyleagh, Earl of Inverness and Duke of York.

Wessex
By Letters Patent under the Great Seal of the Realm by date of June 28th 1999 was lawfully begotten unto Her Majesty's son His Royal Highness The Prince Edward Anthony Richard Louis, C.V.O. and the heirs male of his body the dignities of Viscount Severn and Earl of Wessex.

Wales
The Letters Patent for Prince Charles was different: it is for his person only and the young boy already held peerages by birth:

By Letters Patent under the Great Seal of the Realm by date of July 26th 1958 was lawfully begotten unto Her Majesty's son His Royal Highness The Prince Charles Philip Arthur George, Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Earl of Carrick, Baron of Renfrew, Lord of the Isles and Great Steward of Scotland the dignities of Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester.

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  #290  
Old 03-25-2007, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Posted by Suonymona
the title actually goes to Charles as the oldest male descendant but there is an "understanding" he will not actually accept it
[quote="Henri M."]This is not possible. [/quote]

Henri, if you are going to quote me, use the ENTIRE sentence. See this link for my original post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suonymona
If the Queen is still living when Philip dies, my understanding is that the title actually goes to Charles as the oldest male descendant but there is an "understanding" he will not actually accept it and it will be reverted to the crown Charles will assume.
The bolding is for this post. I did not say it was fact. I was very deliberate in my wording because I did not know for certain. I have not probed so deep into hypothetical situations regarding titles of the British Royal Family until this last week.

As a member of this board, I expect that if people are going to "call me out" about my words, that they use ALL of my words, not just select what they deem appropriate to point out my error.

I have been wrong before--on this board, in various forums regarding different families. I admit when I am wrong, especially when presented with correct, factual information. But for someone to pick and choose from my words in order to make me look silly is rude. NO ONE should be subjected to this tactic on any messageboard.

I was incorrect in my information. But I did not present my "understanding" as fact. Snipping my words to make it appear so is wrong. I admit my error. I expect as much from you Henri M.!
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  #291  
Old 03-25-2007, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.
Are we talking about the same precedence in society?

You mean that Zara Phillips or Arthur Chatto, or James Ogilvy, or Zenouska Mowatt do outrank someone like The Most Noble Edward Fitzalan-Howard, Duke of Norfolk, Premier Duke and Premier Earl of England, the Earl Marshal?
No, of course not! A commoner does not outrank a peer. I'm just pointing out in terms of official precedence, regardless of title or style, the members of the royal family in line to the succession always outrank peers.
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  #292  
Old 03-25-2007, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
No, of course not! A commoner does not outrank a peer. I'm just pointing out in terms of official precedence, regardless of title or style, the members of the royal family in line to the succession always outrank peers.
Ah... ok....



I have a weak spot for the Norfolks after seeing the movie Elizabeth (1998) in which Christopher Eccleston played Lord Thomas Howard, the 4th Duke of Norfolk, who was executed in order by Queen Elizabeth I. He was portrayed as a very villain, but I thought it was gross injustice by Queen Elizabeth to behead the noble Duke and to forfeit all his titles and possessions.

The idea that The Most Noble Edward Fitzalan-Howard, The Duke of Norfolk, had to give precedence to a miss Zenouska Mowatt was really like hallucinating for me.

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  #293  
Old 03-25-2007, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.
The Duke of Sutherland is Lord Francis Egerton.
The Duke of Westminster is Lord Gerald Grosvenor.
So they are different persons.


But I see I have mistyped the Duke of Westminster twice on 23 and 26.
My excuses, there is only one Duke of Westminster, of course.
Thanks for the clarification on the Duke of Westminster but you actually have the Duke of Sutherland twice and under different names.

Quote:
James Hamilton, His Grace the (5th) Duke of Abercorn and (7th) Duke of Sutherland
Francis Egerton, His Grace the (7th) Duke of Sutherland

How can both James Hamilton and Francis Egerton both be the 7th Duke of Sutherland?
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  #294  
Old 03-25-2007, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
How can both James Hamilton and Francis Egerton both be the 7th Duke of Sutherland?
My mistake, by special settlement Abercorn was placed between Sutherland and Westminster, that went wrong while typing. A corrected list:

Royal Dukes
HRH The Prince Philip, 1st Duke of Edinburgh
(by Letters Patent is determined that Prince Philip comes direct after The Queen)

HRH The Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay
(in the Peerage, as Prince of Wales, he holds precedence above all dukes, as member of the Royal Family however, he is outranked by his father as determined in a Letters Patent giving Prince Philip precedence)

HRH The Prince Andrew, 1st Duke of York
(As member of the Royal Family, he ranks higher in precedence than he would by virtue of the seniority of his dukedom)

HRH Prince Richard, 2nd Duke of Gloucester
(As member of the Royal Family, he ranks higher in precedence than he would by virtue of the seniority of his dukedom)

HRH Prince Edward, 2nd Duke of Kent
(As member of the Royal Family, he ranks higher in precedence than he would by virtue of the seniority of his dukedom)

Dukes in the Peerage of England
Edward Fitzalan-Howard, 18th Duke of Norfolk

John Seymour, 19th Duke of Somerset

Charles Gordon-Lennox, 10th Duke of Richmond

Hugh FitzRoy, 11th Duke of Grafton

David Somerset, 11th Duke of Beaufort

Murray Beauclerk, 14th Duke of St Albans

Andrew Russell, 15th Duke of Bedford

Peregrine Cavendish, 12th Duke of Devonshire

John Spencer-Churchill, 11th Duke of Marlborough

David Manners, 11th Duke of Rutland

Dukes in the Peerage of Scotland
Angus Douglas-Hamilton, 15th Duke of Hamilton

John Scott, 9th Duke of Buccleuch and Queensberry

Torquhil Campbell, 13th Duke of Argyll

John Murray, 11th Duke of Atholl

James Graham, 8th Duke of Montrose

Guy Innes-Ker, 10th Duke of Roxburghe

Dukes in the Peerage of Great Britain
Alexander Montagu, 13th Duke of Manchester

Ralph Percy, 12th Duke of Northumberland

Dukes in the Peerage of Ireland
Maurice FitzGerald, 9th Duke of Leinster

James Hamilton, 5th Duke of Abercorn

Dukes in the Peerage of the United Kingdom
Arthur Wellesley, 8th Duke of Wellington

Francis Egerton, 7th Duke of Sutherland

Gerald Grosvenor, 6th Duke of Westminster

James Carnegie, 3rd Duke of Fife

(virtually, when their fathers would not be alive today)

Alexander Windsor, 3rd Duke of Gloucester (the present Earl of Ulster)

George Windsor, 3rd Duke of Kent (the present Earl of St. Andrews)
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  #295  
Old 03-25-2007, 03:01 PM
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I don't know if it was posted before but here you go

Royal Styles and Titles of Great Britain
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  #296  
Old 04-24-2007, 04:44 PM
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question

I know Edward and Sophie go by the title of Earl and Countess. Is Sophie ever called princess since Edward is Prince Edward? Also I am not familiar with royal titles, why is Edward called Earl and not Count since Sophie is called countess?
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  #297  
Old 04-24-2007, 05:21 PM
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Officially Sophie can be known as HRH Princess Edward, but her given title is the Countess of Wessex much like Sarah Ferguson was known as the Duchess of York, she was still HRH Princess Andrew.

Edward is known as an Earl simply because Count's do not exist in English Aristocracy. In England it is Earl and Countess, not Count and Countess.
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  #298  
Old 04-24-2007, 05:39 PM
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Thanks for the information. Now that I read your post the only count I can think of was the Count of Monte Cristo. Ha HA
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  #299  
Old 04-25-2007, 04:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beck
Officially Sophie can be known as HRH Princess Edward, but her given title is the Countess of Wessex much like Sarah Ferguson was known as the Duchess of York, she was still HRH Princess Andrew.

Edward is known as an Earl simply because Count's do not exist in English Aristocracy. In England it is Earl and Countess, not Count and Countess.
Don't forget the word "The" in the titles of the children of the Sovereign, Thus it would be HRH The Princess Edward as The Earl of Wessex is HRH The Prince Edward and likewise for The Prince Andrew.
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  #300  
Old 04-26-2007, 10:20 AM
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Is it correct to use Mrs. Timothy Laurence in connection with HRH The Princess Royal?

She used to be known as HRH The Princess Anne, Mrs. Mark Phillips and I was wondering if you can now use HRH The Princess Royal, Mrs. Timothy Laurence.
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