Questions about British Styles and Titles

[Henri M.]

For Gloucester, Kent, Edinburgh, York and Wessex there were 'normal' Letters Patent meaning that they are 'normal' Peers which are ranked in the Peerage according their rank and date of creation on the moment they do no longer fall under the workings of the Letters Patent of December 11th 1917 (= no son or grandson to the Sovereign or the eldest grandson of The Prince of Wales)

Gloucester

By Letters Patent under the Great Seal of the Realm by date of March 31st 1928 was lawfully begotten unto His Majesty's son, His Royal Highness The Prince Henry William Frederick Albert, K.G., G.C.V.O., Captain 10th Royal Hussars and the heirs male of his body the dignities of Baron Culloden, Earl of Ulster and Duke of Gloucester.

Kent
By Letters Patent under the Great Seal of the Realm by date of March 31st 1928 was lawfully begotten unto His Majesty's son, His Royal Highness The Prince George Edward Alexander Edmund, K.G., G.C.M.G., G.C.V.O. and the heirs male of his body the dignities of Baron Downpatrick, Earl of St Andrews and Duke of Kent.

Edinburgh
By Letters Patent under the Great Seal of the Realm by date of February 2nd 1957 was lawfully begotten unto Lieutenant His Royal Highness Sir Philip Mountbatten, K.G., R.N. and the heirs male of his body the dignities of Baron Greenwich in the County of London, Earl of Merioneth and Duke of Edinburgh.

York
By Letters Patent under the Great Seal of the Realm by date of July 29th 1986 was lawfully begotten unto Her Majesty's son His Royal Highness The Prince Andrew Albert Christian Edward, C.V.O. and the heirs male of his body the dignities of Baron Killyleagh, Earl of Inverness and Duke of York.

Wessex
By Letters Patent under the Great Seal of the Realm by date of June 28th 1999 was lawfully begotten unto Her Majesty's son His Royal Highness The Prince Edward Anthony Richard Louis, C.V.O. and the heirs male of his body the dignities of Viscount Severn and Earl of Wessex.

Wales
The Letters Patent for Prince Charles was different: it is for his person only and the young boy already held peerages by birth:

By Letters Patent under the Great Seal of the Realm by date of July 26th 1958 was lawfully begotten unto Her Majesty's son His Royal Highness The Prince Charles Philip Arthur George, Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Earl of Carrick, Baron of Renfrew, Lord of the Isles and Great Steward of Scotland the dignities of Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester.

[Suonymona]

Posted by Suonymona
the title actually goes to Charles as the oldest male descendant but there is an "understanding" he will not actually accept it

[quote="Henri M."]This is not possible. [/quote]

Henri, if you are going to quote me, use the ENTIRE sentence. See this link for my original post.

Originally Posted by Suonymona

If the Queen is still living when Philip dies, my understanding is that the title actually goes to Charles as the oldest male descendant but there is an "understanding" he will not actually accept it and it will be reverted to the crown Charles will assume.

The bolding is for this post. I did not say it was fact. I was very deliberate in my wording because I did not know for certain. I have not probed so deep into hypothetical situations regarding titles of the British Royal Family until this last week.

As a member of this board, I expect that if people are going to "call me out" about my words, that they use ALL of my words, not just select what they deem appropriate to point out my error.

I have been wrong before--on this board, in various forums regarding different families. I admit when I am wrong, especially when presented with correct, factual information. But for someone to pick and choose from my words in order to make me look silly is rude. NO ONE should be subjected to this tactic on any messageboard.

I was incorrect in my information. But I did not present my "understanding" as fact. Snipping my words to make it appear so is wrong. I admit my error. I expect as much from you Henri M.!

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Henri M.

Are we talking about the same precedence in society?

You mean that Zara Phillips or Arthur Chatto, or James Ogilvy, or Zenouska Mowatt do outrank someone like The Most Noble Edward Fitzalan-Howard, Duke of Norfolk, Premier Duke and Premier Earl of England, the Earl Marshal?

No, of course not! A commoner does not outrank a peer. I'm just pointing out in terms of official precedence, regardless of title or style, the members of the royal family in line to the succession always outrank peers.

[Henri M.]

Originally Posted by branchg

No, of course not! A commoner does not outrank a peer. I'm just pointing out in terms of official precedence, regardless of title or style, the members of the royal family in line to the succession always outrank peers.

Ah... ok....



I have a weak spot for the Norfolks after seeing the movie Elizabeth (1998) in which Christopher Eccleston played Lord Thomas Howard, the 4th Duke of Norfolk, who was executed in order by Queen Elizabeth I. He was portrayed as a very villain, but I thought it was gross injustice by Queen Elizabeth to behead the noble Duke and to forfeit all his titles and possessions.

The idea that The Most Noble Edward Fitzalan-Howard, The Duke of Norfolk, had to give precedence to a miss Zenouska Mowatt was really like hallucinating for me.

[ysbel]

Originally Posted by Henri M.

The Duke of Sutherland is Lord Francis Egerton.
The Duke of Westminster is Lord Gerald Grosvenor.
So they are different persons.


But I see I have mistyped the Duke of Westminster twice on 23 and 26.
My excuses, there is only one Duke of Westminster, of course.

Thanks for the clarification on the Duke of Westminster but you actually have the Duke of Sutherland twice and under different names.

James Hamilton, His Grace the (5th) Duke of Abercorn and (7th) Duke of Sutherland
Francis Egerton, His Grace the (7th) Duke of Sutherland

How can both James Hamilton and Francis Egerton both be the 7th Duke of Sutherland?

[Henri M.]

Originally Posted by ysbel

How can both James Hamilton and Francis Egerton both be the 7th Duke of Sutherland?

My mistake, by special settlement Abercorn was placed between Sutherland and Westminster, that went wrong while typing. A corrected list:

Royal Dukes
HRH The Prince Philip, 1st Duke of Edinburgh
(by Letters Patent is determined that Prince Philip comes direct after The Queen)

HRH The Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay
(in the Peerage, as Prince of Wales, he holds precedence above all dukes, as member of the Royal Family however, he is outranked by his father as determined in a Letters Patent giving Prince Philip precedence)

HRH The Prince Andrew, 1st Duke of York
(As member of the Royal Family, he ranks higher in precedence than he would by virtue of the seniority of his dukedom)

HRH Prince Richard, 2nd Duke of Gloucester
(As member of the Royal Family, he ranks higher in precedence than he would by virtue of the seniority of his dukedom)

HRH Prince Edward, 2nd Duke of Kent
(As member of the Royal Family, he ranks higher in precedence than he would by virtue of the seniority of his dukedom)

Dukes in the Peerage of England
Edward Fitzalan-Howard, 18th Duke of Norfolk

John Seymour, 19th Duke of Somerset

Charles Gordon-Lennox, 10th Duke of Richmond

Hugh FitzRoy, 11th Duke of Grafton

David Somerset, 11th Duke of Beaufort

Murray Beauclerk, 14th Duke of St Albans

Andrew Russell, 15th Duke of Bedford

Peregrine Cavendish, 12th Duke of Devonshire

John Spencer-Churchill, 11th Duke of Marlborough

David Manners, 11th Duke of Rutland

Dukes in the Peerage of Scotland
Angus Douglas-Hamilton, 15th Duke of Hamilton

John Scott, 9th Duke of Buccleuch and Queensberry

Torquhil Campbell, 13th Duke of Argyll

John Murray, 11th Duke of Atholl

James Graham, 8th Duke of Montrose

Guy Innes-Ker, 10th Duke of Roxburghe

Dukes in the Peerage of Great Britain
Alexander Montagu, 13th Duke of Manchester

Ralph Percy, 12th Duke of Northumberland

Dukes in the Peerage of Ireland
Maurice FitzGerald, 9th Duke of Leinster

James Hamilton, 5th Duke of Abercorn

Dukes in the Peerage of the United Kingdom
Arthur Wellesley, 8th Duke of Wellington

Francis Egerton, 7th Duke of Sutherland

Gerald Grosvenor, 6th Duke of Westminster

James Carnegie, 3rd Duke of Fife

(virtually, when their fathers would not be alive today)

Alexander Windsor, 3rd Duke of Gloucester (the present Earl of Ulster)

George Windsor, 3rd Duke of Kent (the present Earl of St. Andrews)

[magnik]

I don't know if it was posted before but here you go

Royal Styles and Titles of Great Britain

[contessa]

I know Edward and Sophie go by the title of Earl and Countess. Is Sophie ever called princess since Edward is Prince Edward? Also I am not familiar with royal titles, why is Edward called Earl and not Count since Sophie is called countess?

[Beck]

Officially Sophie can be known as HRH Princess Edward, but her given title is the Countess of Wessex much like Sarah Ferguson was known as the Duchess of York, she was still HRH Princess Andrew.

Edward is known as an Earl simply because Count's do not exist in English Aristocracy. In England it is Earl and Countess, not Count and Countess.

[contessa]

Thanks for the information. Now that I read your post the only count I can think of was the Count of Monte Cristo. Ha HA

[RoyalProtocol]

Originally Posted by Beck

Officially Sophie can be known as HRH Princess Edward, but her given title is the Countess of Wessex much like Sarah Ferguson was known as the Duchess of York, she was still HRH Princess Andrew.

Edward is known as an Earl simply because Count's do not exist in English Aristocracy. In England it is Earl and Countess, not Count and Countess.

Don't forget the word "The" in the titles of the children of the Sovereign, Thus it would be HRH The Princess Edward as The Earl of Wessex is HRH The Prince Edward and likewise for The Prince Andrew.

[RoyalProtocol]

Is it correct to use Mrs. Timothy Laurence in connection with HRH The Princess Royal?

She used to be known as HRH The Princess Anne, Mrs. Mark Phillips and I was wondering if you can now use HRH The Princess Royal, Mrs. Timothy Laurence.

[iowabelle]

I am sure that branchg knows for sure, but I think that she is referred to properly as HRH The Princess Royal (and Mrs. Timothy Laurence is not attached).

[RoyalProtocol]

Originally Posted by iowabelle

I am sure that branchg knows for sure, but I think that she properly referred to as HRH The Princess Royal (and Mrs. Timothy Laurence is not attached).

Thanks, I did suspect that Mrs. Timothy Laurence would not be used.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by RoyalProtocol

Is it correct to use Mrs. Timothy Laurence in connection with HRH The Princess Royal?

She used to be known as HRH The Princess Anne, Mrs. Mark Phillips and I was wondering if you can now use HRH The Princess Royal, Mrs. Timothy Laurence.

She is only titled HRH The Princess Royal as it takes precedence over her birthright style (HRH The Princess Anne) and any status derived from her marriage ("Mrs. Timothy Lawrence").

[iowabelle]

Thank you, branchg, I looked for the correct answer (and the reasoning), but I suspected you'd know! (Poor Tim, like the Duke of E., nothing but a bloody amoeba.)

[HRH Queen Mary]

Originally Posted by chrissy57

If the Queen issues new Letters Patent, changing the LPs from 1917 limiting the title HRH Prince/Princess to only the children of the heir to the throne for instance then both Beatrice and Eugenie would lose their HRH etc. That is exactly what happened in 1917 when various Princes and Princesses lost their titles.

Diana and Sarah lost the HRH because it came with the marriage and went when the marriages ended.

The style they used after their divorces was that of a divorced woman. If Sarah remarries she will cease to be eligible to use the Duchess of York style at all as she would be the wife of another man.

The persons affected by the letters patent of 1917 didn't lose their titles. For example, HH Prince Alastair of Connaught didn't cease to be an HH or a Prince, for the letters patent was not to affect to present holders, only to the future possible holders according to the old patent.I think he was wrongly downsized to Alastair Windsor.

[branchg]

They did cease to hold the qualification of Highness and/or Serene Highness, along with any titles granted by the German duchies and kingdoms.

In general, great-grandchildren of Queen Victoria remained a Prince/Princess of Great Britain and Ireland as a courtesy.

[coco]

Thx for all these informations. Titles can be very irritating

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by branchg

She is only titled HRH The Princess Royal as it takes precedence over her birthright style (HRH The Princess Anne) and any status derived from her marriage ("Mrs. Timothy Lawrence").

It makes sense - especially as she is the daughter of a duke in addition so should have been HRH The Princess Anne, Lady Anne Philips... Daughters of dukes, marquesses or earls are never just plain Mrs., they are Lady first name last (name of husband or family) name.