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  #2721  
Old 10-09-2015, 06:24 PM
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I just stumbled on this thread accidentally. Full disclosure, I have not read the 100+ previous pages so this may have already been mentioned.

In the case of a same sex marriage among royalty (or the aristocracy), a very simple solution might to simply add the word/title "consort" to distinguish the spouse?

(i.e. HRH The Duke of Sussex and HRH The Duke Consort of Sussex)
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  #2722  
Old 10-23-2015, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by PrinceS View Post
I just stumbled on this thread accidentally. Full disclosure, I have not read the 100+ previous pages so this may have already been mentioned.

In the case of a same sex marriage among royalty (or the aristocracy), a very simple solution might to simply add the word/title "consort" to distinguish the spouse?

(i.e. HRH The Duke of Sussex and HRH The Duke Consort of Sussex)
I would assume they would be TRH The Duke's of Sussex.

But when i marry Prince Harry i'll let you know
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  #2723  
Old 10-23-2015, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by HisLegendaryMajest View Post
I would assume they would be TRH The Duke's of Sussex.

But when i marry Prince Harry i'll let you know
One place that might have the answer to the question about gay royal dukes most likely would be found in this thread.

Gay Royalty
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  #2724  
Old 10-23-2015, 11:35 AM
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Right now they would be HRH The Duke of Sussex and Mr. John Smith.
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  #2725  
Old 10-23-2015, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Ish View Post
Right now they would be HRH The Duke of Sussex and Mr. John Smith.

Why would he no get to share the title like a heterosexual couple?
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  #2726  
Old 10-23-2015, 07:30 PM
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Just a reminder that the question of titles for same-sex royal couples has already been discussed at length in the following thread:

Gay Royalty
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  #2727  
Old 10-23-2015, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by HisLegendaryMajest View Post
Why would he no get to share the title like a heterosexual couple?

I don't want to get too into it because as Jacknch has pointed out there is a better thread for this (Jacknch, perhaps you could move this to the gay royalty thread?).

However, the basics of it is... Well, at this point in a same sex marriage, the spouse is not entitled to a courtesy title. A reasoning for this can be put down to the fact that when a man marries a peer he does not take his spouse's titles (the husband of the Duchess of X does not become the Duke of X by marriage, nor does the husband of the Duke of X become the Duke of X), while when a female peer marries, her spouse does not take her title (again, the husband of the Duchess of X does not become the Duke of X, nor does the wife of the Duchess of X become the Duchess of X).

It is something that should be resolved, but the solution hasn't been determined. I would guess that this is largely owing to the fact that same-sex marriage is still relatively new, and so a solution hasn't been implemented yet.
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  #2728  
Old 11-21-2015, 02:55 PM
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Could Lady Louise,Viscount Serven, Zara, and Peter get their titles back?
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  #2729  
Old 11-21-2015, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Sweden View Post
Could Lady Louise,Viscount Serven, Zara, and Peter get their titles back?
Peter and Zara never had titles. They have always been Mr/master Peter Phillips and Miss Zara Phillips/Mrs Michael Tindall as titles and styles are derived from the father and Mark had no title or style to pass on to them. It doesn't matter that their mother is a princess.

As for Louise and James, there is some question whether they are Princess/Prince and simply known as Lady Louise/Viscount Severn, or whether they have never held that style. If they have never held that style then I can't see it being granted in later life. If they are simply not using their Royal styles then it is something they could choose to do when they turn 18.

But there are others on this board who can explain the situation far better than i can.
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  #2730  
Old 11-21-2015, 03:25 PM
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Thank you!
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  #2731  
Old 11-21-2015, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Sweden View Post
Could Lady Louise,Viscount Serven, Zara, and Peter get their titles back?

Zara and Peter never held titles, so there isn't anything for them to get back. It is believed that when Anne and Mark married Mark was offered but turned down a title, then when Peter was born a title was offered and refused again - but at no point was any title created.

Louise and James is a more complicated situation. Some argue that they both hold royal titles, but don't use them similar to the situation with Camilla and the Princess of Wales titles. Others believe that they don't hold them and never did, despite having been eligible for them. The reasoning here is that the Queen didn't issue LPs on the matter, nor did Parliament strip them of titles, but rather the Queen made it known that it was her will that the children of the Earl and Countess of Wessex would be styled as the children of an Earl instead of as the grandchildren of a monarch.

I think there's enough of a grey-zone there that if for some reason they decided to be HRH Princess Louise of Wessex and/or HRH Prince James of Wessex they could probably do so fairly easily. But there's likely to be a public backlash if they do, and being styled as royals instead of as children of an Earl comes with an added expectation of behaviour and media scrutiny - consider the way Peter and Zara are able to live their lives in comparison to Beatrice and Eugenie.
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  #2732  
Old 11-21-2015, 03:37 PM
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No one has taken away anything from them so there is nothing to get back.

Peter and Zara are children of a commoner dad (who wisely turned down offer of earldom at time of wedding) and female line grandchildren, so there is no question of titles.

James and Louise are still a HRH The Prince and Princess of UK, as the male line grandchildren of monarch. But it is just that they are not called so. They are styled as children of an Earl, as per their parents very wise wishes.

For newbies, knowing the 1917 Letters Patent is a good idea..

finally the bottom line is, anne and edward decided to keep their kids toned down, for their good.
but unfortunately any such wisdom or foresight has always eluded the one who came out in between the two..
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  #2733  
Old 11-21-2015, 04:49 PM
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That last comment is ignoring the fact that when the York girls were born the BRF was highly popular and the idea of a smaller royal family with cousins not being used for royal engagements wasn't even being considered. Then British public loved the idea of a new princess when Beatrice was born.


The arguments about Louise and James isn't so clear cut - as there are 'experts' in royal titles who say that The Queen's will is enough for a title to be denied or issued.
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  #2734  
Old 11-21-2015, 06:16 PM
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Mark was offered an earldom. Peter and Zara would have only been styled as children as a Earl which Peter would inherit. They were never going to be HRH Prince Peter and Princess Zara


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  #2735  
Old 11-21-2015, 06:40 PM
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I believe the Queen said the it was the parents that wished them titled as a child of an Earl, not her will, hence adding to the grey area.
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  #2736  
Old 11-21-2015, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by padams2359 View Post
I believe the Queen said the it was the parents that wished them titled as a child of an Earl, not her will, hence adding to the grey area.

That's what I understood as well. As for LPs being issued, why? AFAIK, the LPs HM's Grandfather George V issued back in 1918 (?) regarding who holds the title/style/whatever of HRH Prince/Princess set that out fairly clearly. Or as clearly as it gets w/this issue and the BRF.

I have always thought it was the same as Camilla. Yes, she is HRH the Princess of Wales, but chose not to use it for the obvious reason and wisely too IMO, as it showed she was sensitive to what many in the Public would think and feel if she used the POW title. Also using the DOC title also gave her a real shot at carving out her own identity. Anyway...I think they are HRH Princess Louise of Wessex and HRH Prince James of Wessex, but because Edward and Sophie realized they're so far down the Line of Succession, and become even more so as the years go by, decided the wisest thing would be for them to only have the courtesy titles of an Earl's children.

Personally while I understand it, I don't like it, as IMO it feels like their Birthright was taken away from them in a way. That's me though.


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  #2737  
Old 11-21-2015, 10:21 PM
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Questions about British Styles and Titles

Who is a HRH Prince/ Princess is at the discretion of the monarch. Just like the Queen made Charlotte a Princess, a she or a future monarch can change George V's LP and limit the Hrh passing down to just the direct line if wanted.

It's already subjective anyways with the male bias. Peter, Zara, David and Sarah are all closer to the throne than the Gloucesters and Kents but none are HRH because their mothers were Princesses

What does James and Louise gain from having a HRH other than extra media scrutiny? Without it, they can easily adapt to regular life outside the Royal world like their Philips' cousins but still be part of the family.



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  #2738  
Old 11-22-2015, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by padams2359 View Post
I believe the Queen said the it was the parents that wished them titled as a child of an Earl, not her will, hence adding to the grey area.

When it was announced the official wording was "The Queen has also decided, with the agreement of The Prince Edward and Miss Rhys-Jones, that any children they might have should not be given the style His or Her Royal Highness, but would have courtesy titles as sons or daughters of an Earl."

Reading it, to me it's clear that it is her decision (and therefore will) that the children don't have royal titles. What is unclear is whether or not the Queen simply saying that someone doesn't have a title is enough, or if she does have to issue LPs.

I tend to think that the decision was made both because at the time of their marriage Edward and Sophie weren't full time royals, nor did they intend to be so as they had private jobs, and the family was still trying to recoup from the War of the Waleses. But I have no doubt that it was made intentionally vague so as to not restrict them to this decision in the future.
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  #2739  
Old 11-22-2015, 06:45 AM
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I think it was announced in such a manner as not to appear punitive. The tabloids would have run articles about the Queen 'stripping' the children of their titles. Its clear to me at least S&E don't want their children to be royal and the Queen is in agreement.

Royal styles and titles are not governed by parliament and unlike peerages, the Queen can change and alter them as she pleases. Its the sovereign's will and pleasure that matters, not the way in which she expresses her will.

King George VI immediately after the Abdication instructed his advisors that the BBC should announce the broadcast of the former King as being made “by His Royal Highness Prince Edward”

This was deemed an expression of the King's will and pleasure that his brother be a HRH and lead to the kerfuffle over Wallice's style.

IMO the press release from BP regarding James and Louise is a clear expression of the Queen's will.

For me there is no ambiguity, the Wessex children are not prince and princess. In the unlikely scenario they wish to styled as such, an announcement from BP would be required.
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  #2740  
Old 11-22-2015, 09:57 AM
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Eventually, if things go as they've planned, Charles will create Edward as the Duke of Edinburgh thus making Louise and James children of a Duke. If things have changed and Louise and James or Sophie and Edward then prefer their children to be Princess and Prince of the UK, Charles could announce it as such at that time. I don't see it happening that way but eventually James will inherit the Duke of Edinburgh title from his father and grandfather and remain in the line of descent but not as a royal Duke.
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