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  #2701  
Old 05-07-2015, 04:11 AM
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I wonder if the recent changes to The Marriage Act (same sex couples) will change how British styles and titles are used and applied?

The Monarch needs to be active Church of England so I guess that rules out same sex marriage for them but what about other Dukes and Duchesses etc.?
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  #2702  
Old 05-07-2015, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by King of the Jungle View Post
I wonder if the recent changes to The Marriage Act (same sex couples) will change how British styles and titles are used and applied?

The Monarch needs to be active Church of England so I guess that rules out same sex marriage for them but what about other Dukes and Duchesses etc.?
There has been discussion about this in the following thread:

Gay Royalty
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  #2703  
Old 05-07-2015, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
I am rather taken with the notion that a female heir apparent could become Prince of Wales, so that, with respect to this particular title, Prince can become a gender neutral term. Elizabeth I often referred to herself as a prince.
I both love and dislike the notion. I like the idea of the title being gender neutral and I think it would play in well to the way that the title has been used in the past, and the way that female monarchs have presented themselves in the past. However, at the same time, I can't help but suspect that if the title were to be gender neutral people wouldn't get it - both accidentally and deliberately.

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Not formally yet. Though when conversing with my husband I often refer to the (male) spouse of a woman as "Mr Jane Doe" if I don't know his name.
Well that's not at all unlike people being called "Mrs John's Mom" or "Mr Jane's Dad".
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  #2704  
Old 05-07-2015, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
I believe that the changes to the succession act allowing primogeniture does not apply to the peerage. Unless Andrew marries and has male issue, it looks like the Duke of York title will merge with the crown and it'll be up to Charles to decided what to do with it. Once Charles is king though, Harry will be the same spot as Andrew is now as the second son of the monarch. I do expect though that he'll receive a peerage (Sussex, Clarence?) before Andrew passes on.

There is a bill now before Parliament which, if passed, will allow peerages to be inherited by women and their descendants provided that the current holder of the peerage (and/or his family ?) agrees to the change (note: I'm not sure about the exact details as I have not read the bill myself).

If that bill ever becomes law, then female members of the RF will be to hold peerages of their own.
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  #2705  
Old 05-08-2015, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
There is a bill now before Parliament which, if passed, will allow peerages to be inherited by women and their descendants provided that the current holder of the peerage (and/or his family ?) agrees to the change (note: I'm not sure about the exact details as I have not read the bill myself).

If that bill ever becomes law, then female members of the RF will be to hold peerages of their own.
The Hereditary Peerages (Succession) Bill is a Private Member's Bill started in the House of Lords, sponsored by Lord Lucas. It was introduced on 11 June 2012 but the second reading has not been scheduled. It provides that in circumstances where the incumbent of a heriditary peerage only has female children, the incumbent may petition the Lord Chancellor for a certificate allowing his oldest surviving legitimate child to succeed to the peerage, and enabling females to succeed to the peerage in future without the need for a petition.

Any legitimate child of the incumbent may lodge an objection within 3 months of publication of the petition, and the petition may be refused if the lord Chancellor is satisfied that upholding the petition would result in gross inequity, in particular with respect to the financial consequences for the child making the objection. Somewhat strangely, IMO, one of the express factors to which the Lord Chancellor may have regard is whether or not the succession had previously been promised to the child making the objection. If the objector was not the oldest child, why would she have been promised the succession or have a reasonable expectation that it might be awarded? It's one thing to upset the applecart by allowing women to inherit, but to contemplate that anyone but the oldest qualified candidate might take would be even more odd, I would think, bearing in mind the importance of primogeniture in the system. Removing primogeniture would cause even more angst, and I can envisage some lengthy litigation over family spats.

The Bill is a short one and may be found here: http://www.publications.parliament.u...0029/13029.pdf

I look forward to the second reading with the greatest of interest, for I am having great fun imagining the outrage and pearl-clutching the mere thought of it must be causing in some quarters, and the chaos that would ensue in those same quarters were the bill passed, but I will not be holding my breath.
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  #2706  
Old 05-13-2015, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacknch View Post
There has been discussion about this in the following thread:

Gay Royalty
Many thanks, Jacknch.
I was, however, most interested in the British situation considering the recent changes.
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  #2707  
Old 05-15-2015, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by King of the Jungle View Post
Many thanks, Jacknch.
I was, however, most interested in the British situation considering the recent changes.
I don't believe the recent Marriage Act makes provisions for the titles and styles of same-sex partners.

There are a couple problems, so to speak, with the idea of same sex partners receiving the titles of their spouse.

The first is that you can't have two Dukes of Wherever (or Earls, Barons, etc). You can have a Duke and a Duchess, but not two Dukes or two Duchesses. In order to grant titles to the same sex partners of British nobles a new system of titles would have to be created, a new title to accommodate the same sex-ness.

Secondly, when a man marries a British noble he does not take his partner's titles - so, if the Duchess of Wherever (in her own right) marries John Smith, John Smith does not become the Duke of Wherever. Likewise, if John Smith marries the Duke of Wherever, he does not also become the Duke of Wherever. Likewise, when a woman who is a British noble marries her partner does not take her titles - if the Duchess of Wherever (in her own right) marries John Smith he does not become the Duke of Wherever, nor does Jane Smith become the Duchess of Wherever if she marries the Duchess of Wherever.
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  #2708  
Old 05-15-2015, 08:25 PM
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This same-sex marriage issue again draws attention to the fact that the English system of peerages and associated inheritance laws is in many ways totally incompatible with modern notions of equality.

The modern concepts of gender equality and same-sex marriage, and indeed the very acceptance of homosexuality as a valid sexual orientation which should be recognised and provided for by society's laws, were totally alien to the feudal system and the peerages and inheritance laws which developed within that framework. Those peerages and inheritance laws are based on notions of male superiority and male primogeniture and relied on sexual reproduction and legally recognised marriage between a man and a woman.

The closer you examine the rules and try to apply them to same sex marriage or in a way that does not discriminate on gender lines, the more it becomes apparent that the system one is trying to mould onto modern traditions and laws, is totally incompatible without major changes which would probably make it pointless.

I think that if the old system of titles is going to continue, it will exist separately, as an increasingly irrelevant and amusing historical curiosity, alongside, but not part of, the modern reality.
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  #2709  
Old 09-01-2015, 04:45 AM
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I have read on here posters refering to The Duchess of Cambridge as ' Princess', I live in England and have heard no one, child or adult refer to her as ' Princess Kate' or 'Princess Catherine '. That is my personal experience. I also remember there being questions asked after The Duke put his wife's occupation as Princess of the United Kingdom.
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  #2710  
Old 09-01-2015, 06:36 AM
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Well just before Kate gave birth to Charlotte she attended a service at St Pauls and the BBC live on air referred to her as 'Princess Catherine'.

During an interview in 2012 PM David Cameron referred to her as 'Princess Kate'

Just after W&K's wedding Paddy Harverson, the Prince of Wales' communications secretary, suggested the public be encouraged to use the names Prince William and Princess Catherine if they preferred.

He said: "I think it's absolutely natural that the public might want to call them Prince William and Princess Catherine and no one is going to have any argument with that."

I personally hear 'Princess Kate' used all the time especially with younger people.
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  #2711  
Old 09-01-2015, 08:19 AM
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I have only ever seen Princess Kate/Catherine in American magazines - never in anything British.

She is a princess of course but as Princess is a lower styling than Duchess - just as Prince is lower then Duke in the UK - it would be insulting to call her by a lower style than her right. William went from a commoner to a peer of the realm when created Duke of Cambridge so why use the style that is associated with being a commoner rather than the rarer peerage titles?
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  #2712  
Old 09-01-2015, 08:25 AM
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I'm replying to Honeybees. I gave examples of both 'Princess Catherine' and 'Princess Kate'. An episode of Coronation Street called her Princess Kate.

Everyone from the BBC, the Prime Minister to Prince Charles' own communications secretary has used the word princess.

Its clearly just not an Americanism.
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  #2713  
Old 09-01-2015, 08:30 AM
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i have a wonder about titles. When William become the successor will hold the title of duke or will take the title Prince of Wales? I mean, how to pronounce him?
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  #2714  
Old 09-01-2015, 08:35 AM
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^^^ Upon Charles becoming king, William will become the Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge.

The title Prince of Wales must be created anew each time.
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  #2715  
Old 09-01-2015, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
The Hereditary Peerages (Succession) Bill is a Private Member's Bill started in the House of Lords, sponsored by Lord Lucas. It was introduced on 11 June 2012 but the second reading has not been scheduled. It provides that in circumstances where the incumbent of a heriditary peerage only has female children, the incumbent may petition the Lord Chancellor for a certificate allowing his oldest surviving legitimate child to succeed to the peerage, and enabling females to succeed to the peerage in future without the need for a petition.

Any legitimate child of the incumbent may lodge an objection within 3 months of publication of the petition, and the petition may be refused if the lord Chancellor is satisfied that upholding the petition would result in gross inequity, in particular with respect to the financial consequences for the child making the objection. Somewhat strangely, IMO, one of the express factors to which the Lord Chancellor may have regard is whether or not the succession had previously been promised to the child making the objection. If the objector was not the oldest child, why would she have been promised the succession or have a reasonable expectation that it might be awarded? It's one thing to upset the applecart by allowing women to inherit, but to contemplate that anyone but the oldest qualified candidate might take would be even more odd, I would think, bearing in mind the importance of primogeniture in the system. Removing primogeniture would cause even more angst, and I can envisage some lengthy litigation over family spats.

The Bill is a short one and may be found here: http://www.publications.parliament.u...0029/13029.pdf

I look forward to the second reading with the greatest of interest, for I am having great fun imagining the outrage and pearl-clutching the mere thought of it must be causing in some quarters, and the chaos that would ensue in those same quarters were the bill passed, but I will not be holding my breath.
. Well let misogynist's splurt on
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  #2716  
Old 09-20-2015, 11:26 AM
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Camilla Tominey ‏@CamillaTominey 1h1 hour ago
Camilla Tominey on Jeremy Corbyn, Princess Kate, Mary Poppins and Elton John Camilla Tominey on Jeremy Corbyn, Princess Kate, Mary Poppins and Elton John | Camilla Tominey | Columnists | Comment | Daily Express

An example of a veteran British royal reporter casually using 'Princess Kate'

Of course Tominey knows its not Kate's correct title but its another example of its use. (I provided other examples in a previous post)
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  #2717  
Old 09-20-2015, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
Camilla Tominey ‏@CamillaTominey 1h1 hour ago
Camilla Tominey on Jeremy Corbyn, Princess Kate, Mary Poppins and Elton John Camilla Tominey on Jeremy Corbyn, Princess Kate, Mary Poppins and Elton John | Camilla Tominey | Columnists | Comment | Daily Express

An example of a veteran British royal reporter casually using 'Princess Kate'

Of course Tominey knows its not Kate's correct title but its another example of its use. (I provided other examples in a previous post)
Forgive me, I have read the article and no doubt it is me, but I see her referred to as 'Kate' in places and 'Duchess of Cambridge ' but nowhere do I see the word 'princess' or the phrase 'Princess Kate'. Is it me?
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  #2718  
Old 09-20-2015, 12:46 PM
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It's in her Twitter post.


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community
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  #2719  
Old 10-06-2015, 01:47 PM
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Barons were introduced into England by the Normans; most of whom held that rank in Normandy before the Conquest. Baron literally meant a man, being the King's tenant in chief, i.e. holding his land directly from the King. The burgesses and leading citizens of London were also known collectively as Barons, and this style was allowed them by clerks who wrote the writs of William II and Henry I. The barons of the Cinque Ports are a parallel to the barons of London. In the 13th century they were summoned to the Counsel or Parliament, but at first this did not imply that a successor would necessarily also be summoned to subsequent Parliaments. The more important would probably be summoned, but by the reign of Edward III it became usual for successors to receive writs as a matter of course. Thus the Baronage emerged into a hereditary dignity of the Peerage.


The first baron created BY PATENT was John Beauchamp de Holt, created Baron Kidderminster, by Richard III in 1387 with remainder to his heirs male, but baronies by writ also continued to be created long after this date.



A baron is styled Right Honourable and formally by the Sovereign Right trusty and well-beloved (and counselor when a member if the Privy Council).



The title of Viscount had its origin in the office of the deputy or the lieutenant (Vice-Comes) of a Count, which had become hereditary in the Empire by the beginning of the tenth century. It was also used as the Sheriff if a county. Henry VI, crowned King of England and France, created John Lord Beaumont in 1440 Viscount Beaumont in England and Viscount Beaumont in France (a title forfeited by the Duke of Alencon in 1415, and vacant on the death of the Duke of Bedford in 1435), in order to integrate the titles of the two countries. The peerage title received precedence above all Barons, but it did not become popular until the seventeenth century. Viscounts were always created by patent


A Viscount's style is Right Honourable. He is addressed by the King or Queen as Our right trusty and well-beloved cousin (and counselor when of the Privy Council).

Before Canute, an ealdorman administered a shire of province for the King. In Latin documents he was styled Dux or Comes, taking the place between the royal Atheling and the thegn. Under Canute the Danish equivalent of Earl was introduced.


Under the Normans the government of an earl was normally restricted to one county and became hereditary, though losing the functions of the King's representation in the county to the sheriff. An earl was usually invested with the third penny out of the sheriff's court of the county, of Anglo-Saxon origin
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An Earl is styles Right Honourable, and is formally addressed by the Sovereign as Our right trusty and entirely beloved cousin (and counselor when the Privy Council).
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The Term Marchio was applied in the Norman period to the Earl or Baron guarding the Welsh or Scottish Marches, or border territories. Similarly in Germany, the Count or Graf became known as the Markgraf, anglicized to Margrave. By the 12th century it had lost it's territorial significance. It was introduced to England by Richard II, brother-in-law of the Margrave of Brandenburg, the honour being conferred upon Robert de Vere, Earl of Oxford, who became Marquess of Dublin in 1385. The precedence between Dukes and Earls caused great offence to the Earls, and the patent was revoked in1386 in favor of the Dukedom of Ireland. The next recipient did not appreciate the degree. When John Beaufort, Marquess of Dorset, was attainted and the House of Commons appealed to Richard II for it's restoration, Beaufort begged the King not to restore this particular title "as the name of Marquess is a strange name in this realm."
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The style of a marquess is Most Honourable. He is formally styled by the Sovereign, Our right trusty and entirely beloved cousin (and counselor when of the Privy Council).
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The title, Duke, (from Latin Dux, a leader) is the highest in the British Peerage. As there are no British "princes" outside the blood-royal, so pre-eminent in dignity is the ducal title that each royal prince, shortly after attaining his majority (age 21) is usually, but not always, created a Duke; the titular style of Prince, apart from the Prince of Wales, is a title of courtesy. Thus, Prince Henry, son of King George V, was created Duke of Gloucester, Prince Andrew, son of Queen Elizabeth II, was created Duke of York.
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Since the title Duke signified Sovereign status (William the Conqueror was Duke of Normandy) it was not adopted until 1337, when Edward III conferred the Dukedom of Cornwall on his eldest son, the Black Prince. This was followed by Henry Duke of Lancaster in 1351. The first subject to receive a dukedom who was not a member of the royal family, nor one nearly connected, was Sir William de la Pole, Marquess of Suffolk, who was created Duke of Suffolk in 1448.
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A Duke is styled Most Noble (or less formally His Grace), and by the Sovereign in public instruments, Our right trusty and right entirely beloved cousin, with the addition of and counselor when a member of the Privy Council.

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  #2720  
Old 10-06-2015, 02:32 PM
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That was very interesting Rudolph. Thank you for writing it down.
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