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  #2661  
Old 04-29-2015, 09:36 AM
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In this instance with Edward, upon his marriage, the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh made their wishes known that they would like Philip's title to go to their 3rd son and 4th child and with that being said, Edward was created the Earl of Wessex at that time.

Its not actually a given at this time that Edward will be created The Duke of Edinburgh when Charles ascends the throne. Charles and Edward could have a very serious falling out and once Charles ascends the throne, it could be his will and pleasure to not create the title for Edward. As it was made quite public what their parent's wishes are, I really don't think that would ever happen and Charles is the type of man that would definitely honor his parent's wishes.
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  #2662  
Old 04-29-2015, 03:13 PM
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not true remember King Edward the seventh I think it was his daughter Louise who married the Duke of fife I believe it was she had 2 girls only and Edward the 7th passed an act that the title of fife be passed on to Louise daughters when it looked like there would be no more children from that marriage
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  #2663  
Old 04-29-2015, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by janjan View Post
not true remember King Edward the seventh I think it was his daughter Louise who married the Duke of fife I believe it was she had 2 girls only and Edward the 7th passed an act that the title of fife be passed on to Louise daughters when it looked like there would be no more children from that marriage
In this case, it was a stipulation added solely for that peerage. The Duke of Edinburgh title still carries the stipulation of "the heirs male" as do most of the hereditary peerage titles.
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  #2664  
Old 04-29-2015, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by janjan View Post
not true remember King Edward the seventh I think it was his daughter Louise who married the Duke of fife I believe it was she had 2 girls only and Edward the 7th passed an act that the title of fife be passed on to Louise daughters when it looked like there would be no more children from that marriage
Lord Alexander Duff was given his Dukedom of Fife and Earldom of Macduff with a special remainder attached to it. When he married Princess Louise of Wales, he was Earl Fife, Viscount Macduff and Baron Braco (Peerage of Ireland) and Earl of Fife and Baron Skene (Peerage of the United Kingdom).

On his marriage Lord Alexander Duff was created Duke of Fife and Marquess of Macduff in the peerage of the United Kingdom. But all these honours were -as usual- to the "heirs male of the body". When, fourteen years later, it was clear that the advent of a male heir was unlikely, he was created Duke of Fife and Earl of Macduff afresh with remainder to his daughters and their issue. It was to these titles that Princess Louise succeeded on her father's death in 1912.

It should be noted, however, that except in very rare cases this ability by means of special remainder to transmit through the female line is restricted to the first instance. Once the lady has succeeded, the succession to the title follows the normal course of "heirs male of the body".

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  #2665  
Old 04-29-2015, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by janjan View Post
not true remember King Edward the seventh I think it was his daughter Louise who married the Duke of fife I believe it was she had 2 girls only and Edward the 7th passed an act that the title of fife be passed on to Louise daughters when it looked like there would be no more children from that marriage

Edward VII didn't 'pass an act'. That is what parliament does and the King assents to it.

That isn't what happened in this case however. Edward VII issued new Letters Patent which allowed the title to be inherited by his granddaughter because the Fife's didn't have a son.

The LPs for Philip's title are clearly - heirs male of the body (as are the LPs for William's Cambridge title) meaning that Charles is the heir apparent to the Edinburgh title followed, in order, by William, George, Harry, Andrew and then Edward and James.

For Edward to inherit the title directly from Philip then all those ahead of him in the line of succession to that title would have to be dead before Philip.

The Queen won't issue LPs to override the rights of her sons and grandsons to inherit their father/grandfather/great-grandfather's title when she knows that it will merge with the Crown eventually anyway and thus will be available to be recreated for Edward.

Whether Charles would recreate it for James if Edward predeceased either of The Queen or Philip would be another question altogether but I am confident that he would honour the announcement made in 1999 and recreate the title for Edward within a reasonable period after the title merges with the Crown.
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  #2666  
Old 04-30-2015, 08:22 AM
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Oddly enough there was an article in The Times on 26th April about Edward being the next Duke of Edinburgh. Edward to be the next Duke of Edinburgh. I am not a subscriber so I can't read the entire article and I doubt it's completely accurate about the designation and inheritance of the title. I just thought I would link the article as this subject is being discussed again.
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  #2667  
Old 04-30-2015, 08:59 AM
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There actually are two threads to which all this relates. The future of the Duke of Edinburgh title has a robust discussion (with a lovely summary at post #2 by Iluvbertie that looks back to official leaks about the issue. That is a closed sticky thread.

That thread says all future discussion of the matter "should be done in the Royal Dukes and Ducal Titles thread." (Warren at his tidy best).
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  #2668  
Old 04-30-2015, 07:02 PM
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Both sisters but particularly Beatrice need to realise that just because they are granddaughters of the Queen, this doesn't mean they are required, expected or necessarily wanted to spend the rest of their lives shaking hands and cutting ribbons. If they want to do charity work, it can be in their capacity as private citizens rather than because they have titles.

it would be best all round if they relinquished their titles upon marriage. It seems archaic to have people swanning round being princesses in this day and age, if they are not working royals.
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  #2669  
Old 04-30-2015, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by royal-blue View Post
Both sisters but particularly Beatrice need to realise that just because they are granddaughters of the Queen, this doesn't mean they are required, expected or necessarily wanted to spend the rest of their lives shaking hands and cutting ribbons. If they want to do charity work, it can be in their capacity as private citizens rather than because they have titles.

it would be best all round if they relinquished their titles upon marriage. It seems archaic to have people scanning round being princesses in this day and age, if they are not working royals.
I agree it's archaic. Why wait till they get married though? They may never get married, or mightn't get married for years. If they're going to relinquish their titles, why not relinquish them now?
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  #2670  
Old 04-30-2015, 08:37 PM
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Their titles are what they are. Even if they were to cease using them, there's no getting away from them, they ARE Princesses and it's nonsense to say that not using the title would change anything for them. Their granny is The Queen, their father is a Duke, their uncle and cousins will be King and their mum is Fergie - there's no hiding from that legacy and it's about time people accept that Beatrice and Eugenie aren't going to live like 'the rest of us' because they simply aren't like 'the rest of us' and anyone who says otherwise isn't exercising common sense.
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  #2671  
Old 04-30-2015, 09:24 PM
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Their titles are what they are. Even if they were to cease using them, there's no getting away from them, they ARE Princesses and it's nonsense to say that not using the title would change anything for them. Their granny is The Queen, their father is a Duke, their uncle and cousins will be King and their mum is Fergie - there's no hiding from that legacy and it's about time people accept that Beatrice and Eugenie aren't going to live like 'the rest of us' because they simply aren't like 'the rest of us' and anyone who says otherwise isn't exercising common sense.
How do you know if something will make a difference if you never try? Some people are prepared to accept the status quo without question or challenge, and others aren't. Nothing will ever change if people don't decide to do things differently. I believe that if Beatrice and Eugenie were to stop using their styles and titles, a lot would change for them and they could live more like other rich, privileged, people. I don't believe for one second that they will, though.
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  #2672  
Old 05-01-2015, 02:12 AM
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I think in this day and age of many women' choosing to keep their own maiden name after marriage, for Beatrice and Eugenie to drop their HRH Princess titles would be a step backwards. It is who they are. They are familial members of the House of Windsor with a lot to be proud of. Their grandmother is The Queen.

Last I saw, the Firm doesn't have any "working" titles although I've heard HM referred to as "The Boss" quite a bit.
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  #2673  
Old 05-01-2015, 03:02 AM
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I think in this day and age of many women' choosing to keep their own maiden name after marriage, for Beatrice and Eugenie to drop their HRH Princess titles would be a step backwards. It is who they are. They are familial members of the House of Windsor with a lot to be proud of. Their grandmother is The Queen.
I do not agree that it would be a retrograde step. Is HRH Princess really "who they are"? Or is it just something artificial that has been tacked onto them by others when they were babies, before they were old enough to choose for themselves? They are Beatrice and Eugenie, daughters of Andrew and Sarah, granddaughter of Elizabeth who just happens to be The Queen. Zara and Peter are grandchildren of Elizabeth, too, but they aren't HRH Princess and Prince, or even Lord or Lady, partly due to the gender inequality inherent in the system but also also because of choices made for them by others when they were babies. And their cousins Louise and James, who are apparently HRHs and Princess and Prince and also grandchildren of The Queen, but just aren't "known" as such, also because of choices made for them by others when they were babies.

They are all the individual people they are, with their own personalities and identities and rights as individuals, which includes the right to choose the identity by which they will be known so long as it is an identity which is available to them by right or law.
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  #2674  
Old 05-01-2015, 03:10 AM
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Putting aside any associated benefits (or lack thereof) of having a title, more importantly I think, is the privilege of having one.
Provided one does't go parading about telling everyone they have a title and show off about it, there is NO reason whatsoever why someone should give a up. Further, there is nothing wrong with something seeming to be archaic. There are many things in life that transcend social modernity, trends and fashions.
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  #2675  
Old 05-01-2015, 04:04 AM
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Putting aside any associated benefits (or lack thereof) of having a title, more importantly I think, is the privilege of having one.
Provided one does't go parading about telling everyone they have a title and show off about it, there is NO reason whatsoever why someone should give a up. Further, there is nothing wrong with something seeming to be archaic. There are many things in life that transcend social modernity, trends and fashions.
I'm not suggesting anyone SHOULD give it up. I'm merely saying that if someone WANTS to give up those things, they ought to be able to.

Many people are happy to go with the flow but some people have different views about whether something old is desirable and something they want to perpetuate in their lives, and I believe they ought to feel free to decide something is archaic and not for them and if that is their choice than their decision should be respected.
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  #2676  
Old 05-01-2015, 05:03 AM
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I still think if they were to give up their royal styles people and the press would still refer to them as Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie. They are and always will be British Princesses, granddaughters of a Queen and children of a Prince. There is no way around that. Perhaps they could do what the Norwegian's do and lose the "Royal" in HRH and just become Her Highness like Martha Louise and His Highness Sverre Magnus. The Danish do that as well I believe - Joachim's children His/Her Highness even though they are still grandchildren of the Monarch.
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  #2677  
Old 05-01-2015, 05:32 AM
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Oh, I'm sure the press still would refer to them by their Royal style and title. But if they're not going to be working Royals, most of their lives will be lived outside the Royal spotlight, and, just like Dr Claire Booth MBBS, MSc, PhD (aka Countess of Ulster), who chooses to remain known as Dr Claire Booth, they can just be who they choose to be for most of the time.
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  #2678  
Old 05-01-2015, 06:34 AM
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I'm not suggesting anyone SHOULD give it up. I'm merely saying that if someone WANTS to give up those things, they ought to be able to.

Many people are happy to go with the flow but some people have different views about whether something old is desirable and something they want to perpetuate in their lives, and I believe they ought to feel free to decide something is archaic and not for them and if that is their choice than their decision should be respected.
I couldn't agree more, Roslyn. Although I was partly referencing your posts and previous ones, I also wanted to put the view across that styles and titles etc are an ancient thing - archaic or even anachronistic as some might say - but I couldn't see why something in that category shouldn't still exist as a contemporary element to "modern" life.

Both Beatrice and Eugenie may find that as time goes on, they use or have use of their titles in day to day less and less.

Another thought is that their styles and titles could possibly mean a lot less to them than to us - I cannot imagine Beatrice waking up every morning, looking in the mirror and saying to herself in self gratification "I'm HRH Princess Beatrice of York, make sure everyone knows it".
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Old 05-01-2015, 06:42 AM
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In their real lives the York girls probably don't even use their titles and just go by Beatrice and Eugenie York in their jobs. William and Harry were just William and Harry Wales in the college (for W) and in the military.

Do we really think the close friends of the younger royals are calling them sir or ma'am like older generation royals where called.


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  #2680  
Old 05-01-2015, 09:02 AM
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In their real lives the York girls probably don't even use their titles and just go by Beatrice and Eugenie York in their jobs. William and Harry were just William and Harry Wales in the college (for W) and in the military.

Do we really think the close friends of the younger royals are calling them sir or ma'am like older generation royals where called.


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Well, we don't know, because we're not in that set. We have been told that as recently as Charles & Andrew's times, the women they eventually married had to call them "Sir" until they were engaged. And I'd prefer not to let my imagination play with that thought any further. ETA Though, of course, Charles & Andrew may be "older generation royals" to you.
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