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  #2641  
Old 04-25-2015, 11:23 AM
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That is true. The 'pattern' was set by HRH Princess Patricia of Connaught. When she married the Hon. Alexander Ramsay (younger son of the 13th Earl of Dalhousie), she voluntarily relinquished the title of Princess of Great Britain and Ireland and the style Royal Highness, and assumed the style Lady Patricia Ramsay. Her only child had no title (Alexander Ramsay of Mar).

The following was HRH Princess Alexandra of Kent. When she married the Hon. Angus Ogilvy, the last refused an offered earldom because -as a younger son- he could not lead the lifestyle of an Earl. Her children have no title (James and Bruce Ogilvie).

The following was HRH The Princess Anne. When she married with Captain Mark Phillips, the last refused an offered earldom as well. Her children have no title (Peter and Zara Phillips).

The only exception on this pattern was when HRH The Princess Margaret married Antony Armstrong-Jones. Back then the royal family was still very small. The Princess Margaret was a very core royal. Due to concerns over the prospect of a British princess giving birth to a child without a title, Antony was offered the earldom of Snowdon and the viscounty of Linley. Now in 2015 this will no longer happen, I expect. Maybe when the eldest daughter -and heiress- of Prince William would have been a female, yes, then her future husband would most likely have been created a Peer by her grandfather Charles or father William.

It indeed was not Princess Anne's or Prince Andrew's choice that the one's children have no title but the other's have. It was a choice by Prince Edward however to "deny" his children with the royal title which is automatically theirs.
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  #2642  
Old 04-25-2015, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
That is correct. When nothing happens, James, the present Viscount Severn, will become the 2nd Earl of Wessex as only heir of the male body of the present Earl. When -according to plan- his father will become the 1st Duke of Edinburgh of a new creation, he will become the Earl of Wessex as heir to his father's Dukedom. But still we will have to see: will he be known as HRH The Earl of Wessex (to which he is entitled) or as James Mountbatten-Windsor, Earl of Wessex (like his far-away cousins the Alexander Windsor, Earl of Ulster and George Windsor, Earl of St Andrews). After all, James is already not known with his rightful title (Prince) and is not addressed accordingly his correct rank (HRH).

James wouldn't be known as HRH The Earl of Wessex while the heir to the Edinburgh Dukedom. He would be either HRH Prince James of Edinburgh OR the Earl of Wessex but not both.

Go back to 1935 when the then Duke of Kent had a son. That son wasn't known as HRH The Earl of St Andrews but as HRH Prince Edward of Kent until his father died when he inherited the title and became HRH The Duke of Kent.

Same thing with the Gloucester title. While the old Duke was alive neither of his sons, while the heir to the dukedom, were known as HRH The Earl of Ulster but were known as HRH Prince William of Gloucester and HRH Prince Richard of Gloucester. On the death of his father Prince Richard became HRH The Duke of Gloucester.


When the heir is a HRH Prince in his own right they don't use the courtesy title. The sons of the Dukes of Kent and Gloucester use it because they aren't HRHs.


James uses the courtesy title to Wessex now because he isn't using HRH Prince James of Wessex (assuming he is even entitled to that designation and I am not going to get involved in that debate again knowing the two sides - 1. that only new LPs can strip them of the HRH and 2. that all that is needed is for the Queen's will to be made known and that is what has happened). If he was using the HRH then there would be no use of the Severn title for a few more generations assuming Edward is created Duke of Edinburgh as intended.
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  #2643  
Old 04-26-2015, 02:46 AM
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I might be wrong but I don't think that James becomes the 2nd Earl of Wessex when his father is made DoE. It's still Edward's title and James's use is only a courtesy so he doesn't change the the number until he inherits in his own right.

George is another example of HRH trumping courtesy title. If not a Prince, he would just been using his father's earldom as courtesy title.

If George was a girl, her future husband wouldn't just be offered a peerage but most likely made a Duke and a Prince since he would be the future consort to a Queen like what happened to Philip (granted he was made a HRH at wedding and Prince later on)


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  #2644  
Old 04-26-2015, 04:40 AM
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Totally agree.


James wouldn't be the 2nd Earl of Wessex until his father dies. Until then, any title he uses, including Viscount Severn is as a courtesy. The substantive holder of the Severn title is still Prince Edward with James using it as a courtesy only.


If Edward eventually is created Duke of Edinburgh, he will be the 1st holder of the 4th creation of the title and James the 2nd. In time James will also be the 2nd holder of the 5th creation of Edinburgh and 2nd of the 1st creation of Wessex and Severn.
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  #2645  
Old 04-28-2015, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Totally agree.


James wouldn't be the 2nd Earl of Wessex until his father dies. Until then, any title he uses, including Viscount Severn is as a courtesy. The substantive holder of the Severn title is still Prince Edward with James using it as a courtesy only.


If Edward eventually is created Duke of Edinburgh, he will be the 1st holder of the 4th creation of the title and James the 2nd. In time James will also be the 2nd holder of the 5th creation of Edinburgh and 2nd of the 1st creation of Wessex and Severn.

If Edward is 1st holder of the 4th creation of DoE, wouldn't James be the 2nd holder of the 4th creation, not the 5th creation?
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  #2646  
Old 04-28-2015, 07:04 AM
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I think it's because the title has to get re-created for James. Hence 5th creation.
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  #2647  
Old 04-28-2015, 07:42 AM
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It doesn't have to be recreated for James but for Edward. Philip is the 3rd Creation Duke and his heir would be Charles, William and then George, but when Philip and the Queen die and Charles becomes King, the dukedom merges with the Crown and can be reissued to Edward as the 4th creation. James is Edward's heir so he would get it automatically when his father dies. It doesn't have to be recreated.


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  #2648  
Old 04-28-2015, 07:45 AM
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Sorry, I don't understand. Why would the DoE title have to be recreated for James? Wouldn't he just inherit it from his father and therefore be 2nd?
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  #2649  
Old 04-28-2015, 08:18 AM
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Simple answer - I made a typo.


Edward will be the first holder of the 4th creation and James will be the 2nd holder of the 4th creation when he inherits the title from his father.
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  #2650  
Old 04-28-2015, 09:02 AM
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I really hope Charles gives Edward the DoE title upon his accession to the Crown as Edward deserves the title.

James as everyone is saying will be the 2nd holder of the 4th creation, but he wont be HRH The Duke of Edinburgh - he will simply be His Grace, The Duke of Edinburgh (although the more I think about the more I like HRH Prince James of Edinburgh, but that wont ever happen.)
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  #2651  
Old 04-28-2015, 05:24 PM
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Charles has to wait until both his parents are dead before he can consider giving Edward the title as he has to inherit it first.


I know it is more likely that Philip will go first but we really can't assume that, in my opinion.
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  #2652  
Old 04-28-2015, 06:52 PM
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it was written along time ago after Edward got married that one Phillip passes on he get the title
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  #2653  
Old 04-28-2015, 06:57 PM
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It was stated at the time of the wedding very clearly that when BOTH parents are deceased that the intention is that Charles will recreate the title for Edward.


Until Charles actually inherits the title and then it merges with the Crown it can't be recreated and Charles is the heir apparent to the Edinburgh title, followed by William, George, Harry and Andrew.


If The Queen passes first then Charles becomes King the title will still be Philip's and so he will have to wait.


If Philip passes first then Charles adds Philip's titles to his own until he becomes King and the titles merge with the Crown.
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  #2654  
Old 04-28-2015, 07:41 PM
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it was stated at the time of Sophie and Edward marriage that he will get Phillips title on his death so the title will not go back to the crown it will go to Edward
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  #2655  
Old 04-28-2015, 08:31 PM
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Maybe you should have a read of this thread, The future of the Duke of Edinburgh title, because unless Charles, William, George, Harry AND Andrew all die before Philip, Edward won't be inheriting the Edinburgh Dukedom straight from Philip. It doesn't work like that.
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  #2656  
Old 04-28-2015, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by janjan View Post
it was stated at the time of Sophie and Edward marriage that he will get Phillips title on his death so the title will not go back to the crown it will go to Edward

This is the BBC article from the day of the wedding: BBC NEWS | Special Report | 1999 | 06/99 | royal wedding | Wessex titles for Edward and Sophie

It has also been agreed that Edward will also become Duke of Edinburgh after the death of his mother, the Queen, and his father, Prince Philip, who currently holds the dukedom.
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  #2657  
Old 04-28-2015, 10:06 PM
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I think you are wrong.


You have been saying that the title will pass from Philip to Edward whenever Philip dies.


I am saying that won't happen until both Philip AND the Queen have died.


The BBC says the same as I am saying: after the death of his mother, the Queen, AND his father, Prince Philip, (I have put the AND in capitals although the BBC article from Edward and Sophie's wedding day didn't have that).
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  #2658  
Old 04-29-2015, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
I think you are wrong.


You have been saying that the title will pass from Philip to Edward whenever Philip dies.


I am saying that won't happen until both Philip AND the Queen have died.


The BBC says the same as I am saying: after the death of his mother, the Queen, AND his father, Prince Philip, (I have put the AND in capitals although the BBC article from Edward and Sophie's wedding day didn't have that).

This is correct. If the Queen dies first, the title is still Phillip's. If Phillip dies first, the title goes to Charles until the Queen dies, the title merges and it can be recreated. At that point, it is not the Queen's to reissue. It it was said any other way, the media was wrong, like they haven't gotten facts backwards before.
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  #2659  
Old 04-29-2015, 08:24 AM
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What it basically boils down to is that the title of The Duke of Edinburgh needs to merge with the crown and that can't happen until Charles ascends the throne. Once it has, it will be possible for Charles, as monarch, to create his brother as the first The Duke of Edinburgh of the 4th creation as it comes nice and fresh from the crown. The title will then start to be "numbered" as the title passes down from father to oldest son (at least until changes are made for primogeniture with peer titles). If James inherits the title from his father, he would be the 2nd The Duke of Edinburgh of the forth creation and so on down the line. Should James have all girls or no children, on his death, the title would once again merge with the Crown and be open for a fresh new line of the 5th creation.
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  #2660  
Old 04-29-2015, 09:12 AM
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Completely correct. The peerages of Prince Philip (Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Merioneth and Baron Greenwich) are hereditary for the heirs male of his body:

1 - The Prince Charles, The Prince of Wales
2 - Prince William, The Duke of Cambridge
3 - Prince George of Cambridge
4 - Prince Henry of Wales
5 - The Prince Andrew, The Duke of York
6 - The Prince Edward, The Earl of Wessex
7 - James of Wessex, Viscount Severn

In no any scenario, not when the Queen dies and not when the Duke dies, Edward will be the direct Heir of his father's peerages. Only when by tragic accident the numbers 1 to 5 of this list are suddenly wiped away.
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