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  #2601  
Old 04-15-2015, 05:53 PM
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Scotland and the Monarchy

When Elizabeth went with her name to reign with and was called Elizabeth II Scotland was tense because they never had a Elizabeth I. What do you think?
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  #2602  
Old 04-15-2015, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by VictoriaB View Post
Sorry but none of them are any different from the rest of us whether they have an HRH or not.
A very good point. This is precisely why it is unfair on those with little or no chance of becoming head of state to be burdened with the HRH title, whether or not they work full time for the firm. Even those who don't, such as Bea and Eug are still constantly judged and scrutinised by the public.

IMO, the York princess should be allowed to ditch the titles upon marriage, and Harry should do the same as the Wessexes in the future, and not have HRH children.
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  #2603  
Old 04-15-2015, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by royal-blue View Post
A very good point. This is precisely why it is unfair on those with little or no chance of becoming head of state to be burdened with the HRH title, whether or not they work full time for the firm. Even those who don't, such as Bea and Eug are still constantly judged and scrutinised by the public.

IMO, the York princess should be allowed to ditch the titles upon marriage, and Harry should do the same as the Wessexes in the future, and not have HRH children.
I kind of see it as a family thing. Mr. and Mrs. Smith have a child, that child is a Smith. Titles are familial things for the most part with royal families and has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on any relationship they would have if they worked for the Firm or didn't. We have to remember that the House of Windsor itself is actually a separate entity than what the Royal Family calls the "Firm".

I don't think either Beatrice or Eugenie would ever ditch their titles but I do believe that they have the option of choosing. Working in NYC or anywhere else, they very well could deem that Bea would use Beatrice Mountbatten-Windsor and its very possible that her (legal) paychecks would be made out to her in that name. Example would be The Duchess of Kent. IIRC, in her private life (I believe she was/is a teacher), she uses the name of Katherine Kent.

From Wikipedia: "She prefers to be known in her private life as "Katharine Kent", and has also expressed a preference for being known as "Katharine, Duchess of Kent". However, her formal title remains "Her Royal Highness The Duchess of Kent"."

Hope this clears things up a bit. I'm sure if I made errors, there are many here that know far more than I do.
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  #2604  
Old 04-16-2015, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
I don't think either Beatrice or Eugenie would ever ditch their titles but I do believe that they have the option of choosing. Working in NYC or anywhere else, they very well could deem that Bea would use Beatrice Mountbatten-Windsor and its very possible that her (legal) paychecks would be made out to her in that name. Example would be The Duchess of Kent. IIRC, in her private life (I believe she was/is a teacher), she uses the name of Katherine Kent.
I would think she'd use York, like her sister does.
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  #2605  
Old 04-16-2015, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by sliver_bic View Post
I would think she'd use York, like her sister does.
Now that you mention it, that most likely would be her choice and so much streamlined than Mountbatten-Windsor. Point is, she has choices. Thanks!

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  #2606  
Old 04-17-2015, 04:17 AM
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If Beatrice doesn't use her royal title she would very likely go by 'Beatrice York' as her sister goes by Eugenie York, professionally, and Prince Andrew chose to go by 'Andrew York' on the land title documents for the Swiss chalet he and Sarah purchased earlier this year. It would be the same way Princes William and Harry went by 'Wales' during their military years.
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  #2607  
Old 04-17-2015, 11:56 AM
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I think the lives of the York girls would become so much easier if they stopped being princesses. Zara still is involved with charities and appears at royal events. They could have a similar situation.
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  #2608  
Old 04-17-2015, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by royal-blue View Post
I think the lives of the York girls would become so much easier if they stopped being princesses. Zara still is involved with charities and appears at royal events. They could have a similar situation.

But Andrew has never wanted that; I read he insisted his daughters have the HRH and full status, and has always tried to keep them close to the Queen.
I can't imagine he'd ever want them to give that up.
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  #2609  
Old 04-17-2015, 01:21 PM
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Andrew didn't have to insist on the HRH. It was theirs as children of son of the monarch as per the LPs of 1917 from George V. Peter and Zara were never going to be HRHs at the most they could have been styled as children of an Earl but Mark Philips turned it down.


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  #2610  
Old 04-18-2015, 03:19 PM
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The most they could do is not use their titles in everyday life. They can't stop being princesses, because they're the daughters of a prince. They could move to the 'back of beyond', where no-one knew where they were, never tell anyone who they were, and they'd still be princesses.

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Originally Posted by royal-blue View Post
I think the lives of the York girls would become so much easier if they stopped being princesses. Zara still is involved with charities and appears at royal events. They could have a similar situation.
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  #2611  
Old 04-18-2015, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
The most they could do is not use their titles in everyday life. They can't stop being princesses, because they're the daughters of a prince. They could move to the 'back of beyond', where no-one knew where they were, never tell anyone who they were, and they'd still be princesses.
Beatrice is only a princess because it was George V's royal will and pleasure that she, and others meeting the requirements set out in the 1917 Letters Patent, "shall have and at all times hold and enjoy the style title or attribute of Royal Highness with their titular dignity of Prince or Princess prefixed to their respective Christian names". The royal style and title is treated as part of her identity and her name, however she can renounce her right to that style and title and change her name by deed poll. She would then no longer be a princess. She's unlikely to thumb her nose at her family that way, but I believe she could.
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  #2612  
Old 04-18-2015, 11:51 PM
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Even if she changed her name by deed poll or some other way it wouldn't change her being a Princess of the UK as she is a male line descendant of a monarch and thus, under the 1917 LPs is a Princess. She can stop using that name but without new LPs or an official statement from The Queen stripping her of that title it is hers and there is nothing she can do about it. She doesn't have to use it but, like the Duchess of Kent who doesn't use HRH The Duchess of Kent as her day to day name, she would still be a Princess.
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  #2613  
Old 04-18-2015, 11:53 PM
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Thanks for your reply. I wasn't thinking of the legalities so much. I was thinking of how someone always retains an essence of who their parents are/were. This has been my experience, at least.
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  #2614  
Old 04-19-2015, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Even if she changed her name by deed poll or some other way it wouldn't change her being a Princess of the UK as she is a male line descendant of a monarch and thus, under the 1917 LPs is a Princess. She can stop using that name but without new LPs or an official statement from The Queen stripping her of that title it is hers and there is nothing she can do about it. She doesn't have to use it but, like the Duchess of Kent who doesn't use HRH The Duchess of Kent as her day to day name, she would still be a Princess.
It might be hers, but she can reject it and refuse to acknowledge being bound by it. All these letters patent and other expressions of the monarch's will only have effect if people recognise them as being rules they have to accept and abide by. They are not laws, just the monarch's will. If you don't consider yourself bound by the monarch's will, what the monarch wills doesn't bind you. It is only tradition.

Yes, I know my argument is tenuous, but I maintain that - save anything that actually passes into legislation - what the monarch says or does is only effective if it is recognised, and if the person who has the benefit of the monarch's royal will and pleasure in respect of a personal nature such as this, doesn't want that gift and actively rejects it, then it doesn't apply to them.
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  #2615  
Old 04-19-2015, 12:39 AM
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Now I have a question. We all know that should Beatrice and Dave get engaged and married that titles will not be passed down through Beatrice's bloodline as the equal primogeniture law has been established only for the succession of the Crown.

What do you think the chances are of The Queen offering a dukedom to Dave on his marriage to Beatrice? If that doesn't happen, any children they would have would end up being Miss, Ms. or Mr. Clark.
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  #2616  
Old 04-19-2015, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Now I have a question. We all know that should Beatrice and Dave get engaged and married that titles will not be passed down through Beatrice's bloodline as the equal primogeniture law has been established only for the succession of the Crown.



What do you think the chances are of The Queen offering a dukedom to Dave on his marriage to Beatrice? If that doesn't happen, any children they would have would end up being Miss, Ms. or Mr. Clark.

I'd say Buckley's chance.

Didn't Mark get offered an Earldom? I can't see the Queen offering a title to her grandson-in-law higher than the one she offered her son-in-law and brother-in-law.

I can't recall if Angus Ogilvy was offered a title on marriage to Princess Alexandra but he certainly didn't accept and remained the Hon only. There's no difference between the position of Alexandra & Beatrice.


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  #2617  
Old 04-19-2015, 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Now I have a question. We all know that should Beatrice and Dave get engaged and married that titles will not be passed down through Beatrice's bloodline as the equal primogeniture law has been established only for the succession of the Crown.

What do you think the chances are of The Queen offering a dukedom to Dave on his marriage to Beatrice? If that doesn't happen, any children they would have would end up being Miss, Ms. or Mr. Clark.
I cannot imagine that any such offer will be made to Dave. Beatrice is a born royal Princess and HRH, yet the indications are her services will not be needed as a full or even part-time working royal, so why would her husband be given a dukedom merely for marrying her? As things currently stand, she would be known as HRH Princess Beatrice, Mrs Clark. I think.

Dave's situation is analogous with that of The Hon. Angus Ogilvy who was offered an earldom when he married Princess Alexandra back in 1963. Ogilvy rejected it. Alexandra was a working royal and her incoming husband was only offered an earldom. Their children were only Mr and Miss Ogilvy.
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  #2618  
Old 04-19-2015, 01:06 AM
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I am wondering whether, having seen the succession to the crown become gender blind whether The Queen might issue new LPs to Andrew's title to allow for female inheritance of the York title in lieu of sons?


Currently the remainder is 'heirs male of the body' but that could easily be changed to 'heirs male of the body, in lieu of heirs male, heirs female'.

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Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
It might be hers, but she can reject it and refuse to acknowledge being bound by it. All these letters patent and other expressions of the monarch's will only have effect if people recognise them as being rules they have to accept and abide by. They are not laws, just the monarch's will. If you don't consider yourself bound by the monarch's will, what the monarch wills doesn't bind you. It is only tradition.

Yes, I know my argument is tenuous, but I maintain that - save anything that actually passes into legislation - what the monarch says or does is only effective if it is recognised, and if the person who has the benefit of the monarch's royal will and pleasure in respect of a personal nature such as this, doesn't want that gift and actively rejects it, then it doesn't apply to them.
One example we have of that is the Duchess of Kent - Katherine Kent in her day to day life but officially the monarch of the day ignores that and always has her referred to by her royal title HRH The Duchess of Kent.


Another example would be the way that the Dukes of Cumberland and Albany lost their titles in 1917. The only way they could lose their British titles and styles was by the passing of the Titles Deprivation Act - an Act of Parliament. Even so the parliament could only strip the then holders of their titles but not remove the title itself from the families who still have the right to apply to have them restated. As these titles were created via LPs they are a good example of the way to remove titles created by LPs - that is via legislation. George V, removed the HRHs, HHs and HSHs of some of his family with his 1917 LPs which is the only other way to remove these titles and styles.

Beatrice can stop calling herself Princess but that doesn't mean she isn't still a Princess. The legal situation in the UK is that titles and styles are recognised and the only two ways to get round them have been mentioned - legislation or the issuing of new LPs. Even when the first 'lord' said he didn't want to accept that title so he could continue to sit in the House of Commons the way the permission was granted still meant that he really did hold the title - his right to not use it was recognised and the inheritance rights of his son were recognised.
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  #2619  
Old 04-19-2015, 01:18 AM
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Katherine Kent is, however, married to a peer. I consider that HM insults Katherine by ignoring her wishes on the subject.

Beatrice is a commoner and her title is a personal one, only. There are no inheritance rights in issue with respect to any children of hers, so if she wants to renounce her status, she would be able to do so, in my opinion. Of course HM would ignore her wishes on the subject, too. Not that we have any indication that Beatrice is ever likely to renounce her royal status.
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  #2620  
Old 04-19-2015, 01:47 AM
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To not refer to HRH The Duchess of Kent with that title is to make the marriage morganatic as the wife takes the titles, styles and ranks of her husband and to do otherwise makes the marriage unequal.


Beatrice can opt to not use the title BUT it would take legislation or new LPs to strip her of that title - based on the clear precedence of the 20th C.


The only way it has happened is via that route and not other way is possible.


Beatrice simply can't say 'I am no longer a Princess'.
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