Questions about British Styles and Titles 1: Ending 2022

[Rudolph]

According to The Sunday Times, Harry and Meghan will not seek a royal title for their baby.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

oh for heaven’s sake. Princess Anne never turned down Royal titles for her children-you would think the British Press would be better informed.
Makes one wonder what else they’ve gotten wrong.

 

[Pranter]

I wouldn't believe the media about anything ...they are guessing as much as we are here.


LaRae

 

[Osipi]

oh for heaven’s sake. Princess Anne never turned down Royal titles for her children-you would think the British Press would be better informed.
Makes one wonder what else they’ve gotten wrong.

True. Even if Mark Phillips had accepted the Queen's offer of a title before their children were born, they wouldn't have had royal titles.

The Sunday Times, for the most part, is a reliable source of information but reading "a source close to the couple" is what made me doubt the validity of this article.

I'll believe it when its announced by BP or KP and not before.

 

[RoyalHighness 2002]

oh for heaven’s sake. Princess Anne never turned down Royal titles for her children-you would think the British Press would be better informed.
Makes one wonder what else they’ve gotten wrong.

You can't expect much from them these days. They are still the ones who think and carry on the falsehood that royals have to curtsy to other royals due to precedence.

 

[Osipi]

The "a source close to the couple" is always a dead giveaway that the claims are not credible ones and should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[JessRulz]

Because Meghan is their mother is the reason they should wait is what I think is behind the reasoning.

I hate to burst your bubble that we are all "anti-Meghan" and it is clouding our judgement, but the topic of titles for Harry's children has been debated for years before Meghan or marriage was even a blip on Harry's radar.

The first post in the topic-specific thread, Titles and Styles of Harry, his Future Wife and Children, that mentions the children remaining Lord/Lady was made in 2006.

 

[jacqui24]

I wouldn't be surprised if the couple chooses to have their kids be styled as that of a Duke. That was always the one reason I thought an LP wouldn't be issued. Due to the wishes of the parents.

Harry has struggled with his role in the past. He's debated whether he wants a royal role for himself. But it was his respect for the Queen, and I do think seeing how much impact he can have, that ultimately led to his decision to stay. It's still a balancing act to this day. Omid and Emily were just talking about how protective he is over Meghan. And I do agree with Omid that it's not just because of the baby. It was obvious well before there was a baby. He's well aware of the downside of the role.

 

[American Observer7]

According to The Sunday Times, Harry and Meghan will not seek a royal title for their baby.

Oh, I don't believe a word coming from the media about this. It's too early for one, and secondly, I doubt they'd discuss this with anyone but the Queen.

 

[Terri Terri]

Me too. As matter of fact, I see the children of the Sussexes remaining titled as children of a Duke even when their grandfather is King...As per the wishes of the parents.

 

[ACO]

According to The Sunday Times, Harry and Meghan will not seek a royal title for their baby.

Well not actually said in the article. She suggests this is the option based on what Harry has stated in the past. She makes valid points but also makes it clear to not state it as a fact. So it will be interesting how it all plays out.

 

[ACO]

While I wouldn't be surprised the "sources said" makes it kind of moot to me. I like Roya's reporting but she has been kind of off with Meghan and Harry scoops as of late.

 

[Dman]

I hope everyone knows that we have to wait for the couple, The Queen and Palace officials to announce if the baby will get an official title. Everything now is just speculation.

 

[Iluvbertie]

The palace doesn't have to announce anything.

They will get an official title. That is already set down.

If they say nothing then the children will be Lord/Lady xxx Mountbatten-Windsor with the eldest son styled as Earl of Dumbarton until Charles becomes King when they become HRH Prince/Princess.

The palace would make one of two announcements - to create them HRH from birth or to say they won't be HRH ever. If neither of these announcements are made then they will follow the 1917 LPs and proceed as set down there.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

I wouldn't be surprised if the couple chooses to have their kids be styled as that of a Duke. That was always the one reason I thought an LP wouldn't be issued. Due to the wishes of the parents.

But the thing is, as soon as Queen Elizabeth leaves this world--Harry & Meghan's children will be HRH.

 

[Duke of Leaside]

The palace doesn't have to announce anything.

They will get an official title. That is already set down.

If they say nothing then the children will be Lord/Lady xxx Mountbatten-Windsor with the eldest son styled as Earl of Dumbarton until Charles becomes King when they become HRH Prince/Princess.

The palace would make one of two announcements - to create them HRH from birth or to say they won't be HRH ever. If neither of these announcements are made then they will follow the 1917 LPs and proceed as set down there.

Agreed and well-stated.

 

[Gawin]

The tricky thing about not making a decision right now is there are other issues when Charles succeeds. If they just let things be as is, then it has to be decided the kids will be HRHs when Charles becomes king. I truly believe, despite what was said before, Charles will do his best to make Camilla Queen rather than Princess Consort. While I think Camilla has certainly earned it, it won’t be a popular decision overall. Does he really want to strip his younger son’s children of HRH while making Camilla Queen? And I realize people like to use Andrew’s popularity when the girls are born against Harry. But Andrew didn’t become so unpopular because his nephews grew up. The Yorks became royal pariahs because of Andrew’s and Fergie’s scandals and bad decisions over the years. While had his share of mistakes in his youth, he’s unlikely to get involved in some of the scandals his uncle has gotten involved in over the years.

You have a very good point. If the plan is to allow the Sussex children to have the HRH the Queen will probably do nothing and follow the 1917 LP in which case they'll automatically become HRH when Charles is King. If it is decided they will never have the HRH an announcement might be made before her death (shudder) allowing Charles to concentrate on sorting out his wife's title & the resulting fallout. I suspect the final decision will largely depend on Charles's vision for the RF, although I think he would discuss it with Harry & Meghan and probably William too, as a future King.

 

[Osipi]

You have a very good point. If the plan is to allow the Sussex children to have the HRH the Queen will probably do nothing and follow the 1917 LP in which case they'll automatically become HRH when Charles is King. If it is decided they will never have the HRH an announcement might be made before her death (shudder) allowing Charles to concentrate on sorting out his wife's title & the resulting fallout. I suspect the final decision will largely depend on Charles's vision for the RF, although I think he would discuss it with Harry & Meghan and probably William too, as a future King.

Its just my gut feelings but I think if there's an announcement that is going to be made, it will happen before the birth of the child. Everything all set, confirmed and ready to go before the kid arrives.

 

[Anna Catherine]

William's kids did not have to wait and neither should Harry's. I am not debating this any longer.

Because Meghan is their mother is the reason they should wait is what I think is behind the reasoning.

I think it’s been pretty thoroughly explained why William’s children have HRH. Harry and William are not the same, do not have the same future role or status. Meghan has no bearing on her child/children’s title. The only thing that matters is their place within the monarchy. And again I don’t see the point in giving them HRH from birth.

It’ll be interesting to see how Harry and Meghan will handle their children and media exposure in general. They aren’t going to be front and center so they can be afforded more privacy and be more sheltered. That’ll probably play a factor in whether the couple decides they want their children to only be styled as children of a Duke for life or eventually receive HRH when Charles is King. The other factor, as mentioned, being whether they work at least part-time for the Firm. I’m torn on that regard...

 

[Tatiana Maria]

In regard to the letters patent of 2012: They pertained to the male preference primogeniture which was applicable at the time Prince George was born in 2013. It will require the letters patent to be amended or repealed to accommodate the change to equal primogeniture which came into effect on March 26, 2015.

By the terms of the letters patent of 2012, if William's great-grandchildren were to be born while William is king, and George's firstborn child were to be a daughter: The children of the daughter would not be royal (in spite of her eldest child being the future monarch), whereas her younger brother's children would be Royal Highnesses.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/60384/page/213

The Queen has been pleased by Letters Patent under the Great Seal of the Realm dated 31 December 2012 to declare that all the children of the eldest son of The Prince of Wales should have and enjoy the style, title and attribute of Royal Highness with the titular dignity of Prince or Princess prefixed to their Christian names or with such other titles of honour.​

 

[Zaira]

I am willing to bet a lot of money that there will be no LPs issued for the Sussex kid(s). Mostly because I do not think Harry and Meghan want that and also because, not to be morbid, but the Queen is not getting any younger. Charles' time to the throne is looming and the Sussex kids will automatically become HRHs then. They will likely continue to be styled as the children of a Duke (i.e. like the Wessexes are styled as children of an earl despite technically being HRHs), but will have the legal status of HRH Prince(ss).

The Cambridges have three kids. IMO it is also unlikely that Louis will be a working royal. I think Louis (possibly even Charlotte once George is married), any subsequent Cambridge kids and all Sussex babies will be expected to take on normal lives and careers---and I think that is wise. They should htus be prepared to take that part on from birth.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

This is getting off topic, but Louis and his future wife would face the same job/career issues that Edward and Sophie faced. There are really very, very few careers the son of the monarch can have in Britain.
And George will need all his siblings working to take up the openings left by the deaths or retirement of everyone else currently working.

I do agree, it is quite likely they will just let things play out the way it is currently set up from the 1917 LP.

 

[Curryong]

A Royal Musings article on the subject discussed here, from Queen Victoria's day on.

https://royalmusingsblogspotcom.blogspot.com/2018/10/to-be-royal-or-not-to-be-royal-that-is.html

 

[Zaira]

This is getting off topic, but Louis and his future wife would face the same job/career issues that Edward and Sophie faced. There are really very, very few careers the son of the monarch can have in Britain.
And George will need all his siblings working to take up the openings left by the deaths or retirement of everyone else currently working.

I do agree, it is quite likely they will just let things play out the way it is currently set up from the 1917 LP.

Different times, different expectations. It was unthinkable a generation ago that two blood princess wouldn't be working royals, but here we are with Bea and Eugenie. There are any number of things Louis can pursue. His own father worked for years before becoming full time in duties even though he is the heir to the heir.

 

[Dman]

The palace doesn't have to announce anything.

They will get an official title. That is already set down.

If they say nothing then the children will be Lord/Lady xxx Mountbatten-Windsor with the eldest son styled as Earl of Dumbarton until Charles becomes King when they become HRH Prince/Princess.

The palace would make one of two announcements - to create them HRH from birth or to say they won't be HRH ever. If neither of these announcements are made then they will follow the 1917 LPs and proceed as set down there.

That’s what I said, the Palace will let us know. Everything else is just speculation until then.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

Different times, different expectations. It was unthinkable a generation ago that two blood princess wouldn't be working royals, but here we are with Bea and Eugenie. There are any number of things Louis can pursue. His own father worked for years before becoming full time in duties even though he is the heir to the heir.

William worked mainly in one of the few careers available to Royalty without much criticism-military service. If he had gone into a for profit business criticism would have been rampant.

 

[King of the Jungle]

The extended BRF carry out many engagements.
The public still expects royal patrons and get excited and uplifted by someone like Prince Harry involving himself in causes for the good of people.

To enable the number of works to be upheld or even half the number of engagements carried out today by the Queen, her cousins, children, grandchildren and their spouses there will have to be more working royals than just Princes Charles, William and Harry, their spouses and Prince George.
I don't think the personal interaction of Royals will become less valued into the future.

So, I think baby Sussex will accept an HRH and will be brought up to carry out some work on behalf of the BRF.

 

[Iluvbertie]

You said that

we have to wait for the couple, The Queen and Palace officials to announce if the baby will get an official title

The problem with that statement is that there is no 'IF' about whether the baby will get an official title.

We already know the baby will have an official title - either Earl of Dumbarton or Lady ... Mountbatten-Windsor OR, the decide to overrulle the 1917 LPs then HRH.

Your statement is flawed.

No announcement = Earl of Dumbarton or Lady, both of which are official titles as the children of a Duke.

 

[Dman]

You said that

The problem with that statement is that there is no 'IF' about whether the baby will get an official title.

We already know the baby will have an official title - either Earl of Dumbarton or Lady ... Mountbatten-Windsor OR, the decide to overrulle the 1917 LPs then HRH.

Your statement is flawed.

No announcement = Earl of Dumbarton or Lady, both of which are official titles as the children of a Duke.

Just saying that we’ll have to wait to see whether it will be Earl, Lady or HRH. It’s okay, calm down.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

No he won't.

He will always be 'The Prince Edward' as he will always be the child of a monarch.

Princess Margaret was HRH The Princess Margaret, Countess of Snowdon to the day she died.

I thought she was HRH The Princess Margaret because she divorced the Earl of Snowdon?