The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #2461  
Old 05-04-2014, 03:48 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is online now
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 3,229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danish girl View Post
I meant Would P Harry be Duke of Cornwall if P William had died, or would that title only be used again when George is king and have a son?

But I guess if he needed to be the heir as well, P Harry would only be Duke of Cornwall if something horrible happened and both P William and P George died...

The title is held by the monarch's eldest son who is the heir apparent. If Charles died today William, the heir apparent, wouldn't be able to use it as he isn't the monarch's son, and Andrew, the monarch's eldest son, wouldn't be able to use it as he isn't the heir apparent.

Anytime the next monarch has been someone other than the monarch's eldest son they didn't hold the title (so, in more "recent" terms, George III, William IV, Victoria, George VI, and Elizabeth II never held the title; George III was the monarch's grandson, and the others were all heir presumptives).
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #2462  
Old 05-04-2014, 05:00 PM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 10,664
The best examples of what is being discussed are George III and George V.

George I created his grandson, Frederick, Duke of Edinburgh in 1726 (just as The Queen has created her grandson William, Duke of Cambridge). When his father succeeded to the throne as George II in 1727 he immediately became The Duke of Cornwall and Edinburgh - titles he held from 11th June 1727 until 8th January 1729 when he father decided to create him Prince of Wales. However when he died his eldest son, George, couldn't inherit the Cornwall title as he wasn't the heir apparent but could inherit the Edinburgh title which he did so George III became Duke of Edinburgh on the death of his father. Whereas George II took nearly two years to name his own eldest son and heir apparent Prince of Wales he took less than a month to give that title to his grandson.

George V was created Duke of York by his grandmother and when she died he was known as HRH The Duke of Cornwall and York (and it was using those titles that he opened the first Australian parliament on the 9th May, 1901). It was in November that year when his father created him Prince of Wales.

So based on those precedents....

When Charles becomes King, William will be HRH The Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge until he is created Prince of Wales - assuming that he is so created.

If Charles dies before becoming King, then the decision would rest with The Queen - does she create William as Prince of Wales or leave him as the Duke of Cambridge only.

If William dies before The Queen and Charles then George would inherit Cambridge and in time Charles could create him Prince of Wales but under the existing rules regarding the Cornwall (and Rothsay and other Scottish titles held by Charles) he would never hold those titles but... there has been talk of changing those rules so that the heir apparent can have the use of the Cornwall estates regardless of gender - no necessarily holding the title however.

So - Charles will inherit Edinburgh when his father dies as he is the heir apparent to both his mother's and father's titles. Should his father die before his mother we probably won't hear of the use of the Edinburgh title for some time. When both The Queen and Philip have died the announced agreement was that Charles would recreate the Edinburgh title for Edward. Should that happen Edward would be HRH The Duke of Edinburgh and James would use the courtesy title of Earl of Wessex - up from Viscount Severn.

William, in the normal course of events will take on Cornwall and Rothsay and maybe created Prince of Wales.

George will follow his father but... will only inherit Cambridge is William predeceases his father.

Once William is King then the Cambridge title will merge with the Crown and also be available for regrant should he so desire.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #2463  
Old 05-04-2014, 06:01 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is online now
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 3,229
Bertie, that was beautifully put.

One correction; Frederick continued to hold the titles Duke of Cornwall and Edinburgh until his death, he just didn't use them primarily after being created Prince of Wales.

Interestingly, when he was king he created one of his brothers Duke of Edinburgh, allowing the title to continue (at least for a time).
Reply With Quote
  #2464  
Old 05-04-2014, 06:31 PM
Skippyboo's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Atlanta, United States
Posts: 3,778
If William and Kate have another son, he could be named Duke of Cambridge when William is King. Since the Gloucester and Kent dukedoms have several male heirs and Andrew may still be alive so the York dukedom wouldn't be free yet.
Reply With Quote
  #2465  
Old 05-27-2014, 07:09 PM
kbk kbk is offline
Nobility
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Toruń, Poland
Posts: 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
the fact Charles will cease to be a Prince the moment he ascends to the Throne.
IMO Charles will never cease to be a Prince as he was born one (first as the son of Princess Elizabeth, under Letters Patent by George VI and now as the son of the monarch, under letters patent by George V). And in fact, the title (or maybe style) of Prince will remain one of his most traditional, official titles (styles). It goes something like Most High, Most Mighty Prince, Lord Charles etc., etc. (not citing directly!)... We'll see or listen that surely at his accession and funeral and only on that two occassions, I think.
In the past, monarchs were always titled as Princes and Princesses and additionally, Kings and Queens of their realms, for example Princess Anne (or even Lady Anne!), Queen of Great Britain, Prince James, King of England, Prince Philip, King of Spain...
Reply With Quote
  #2466  
Old 05-27-2014, 07:16 PM
kbk kbk is offline
Nobility
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Toruń, Poland
Posts: 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
I'm confused. I thought Royals take their precedence only from the Sovereign.
You're absolutely right. The official precedence among members of the Royal Family is derived strictly from their rank of kinship to the CURRENT Sovereign. However, private precedence and simply the so-called life do not cover this at all, as we see Harry taking precedence over his uncles etc.
Reply With Quote
  #2467  
Old 05-27-2014, 07:29 PM
Osipi's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 7,944
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippyboo View Post
If William and Kate have another son, he could be named Duke of Cambridge when William is King. Since the Gloucester and Kent dukedoms have several male heirs and Andrew may still be alive so the York dukedom wouldn't be free yet.
When William becomes King, all his titles (with the exception of Prince of Wales if Charles invests him as such) will go directly to his eldest son George. In the peerage, all titles are inherited by the eldest male in relation to the title holder.
__________________
“In my walks, every man I meet is my superior in some way, and in that I learn from him.”
~~~Ralph Waldo Emerson~~~
Reply With Quote
  #2468  
Old 05-27-2014, 07:38 PM
kbk kbk is offline
Nobility
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Toruń, Poland
Posts: 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
When William becomes King, all his titles (with the exception of Prince of Wales if Charles invests him as such) will go directly to his eldest son George. In the peerage, all titles are inherited by the eldest male in relation to the title holder.
When William becomes King all his titles will merge in the crown and George will become the next Duke of Cornwall and Duke of Rothesay in his right as the monarch's eldest son and heir apparent.
Reply With Quote
  #2469  
Old 05-27-2014, 07:44 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is online now
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 3,229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
When William becomes King, all his titles (with the exception of Prince of Wales if Charles invests him as such) will go directly to his eldest son George. In the peerage, all titles are inherited by the eldest male in relation to the title holder.
When William becomes king none of his titles will go to George, with the exception of the title Duke of Cornwall. All of William's other titles will be merged with the crown, and even the title Duke of Cornwall will really be automatically recreated for George as it's not an inheritable title but one that belongs automatically to any person who meets the requirements.

In order for George to become the 2nd Duke of Cambridge William will have to die without having become King. Once he is King, he could recreate the title for George, but it's not really likely given as George will automatically be Duke of Cornwall.
Reply With Quote
  #2470  
Old 05-28-2014, 04:01 AM
Osipi's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 7,944
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
When William becomes king none of his titles will go to George, with the exception of the title Duke of Cornwall. All of William's other titles will be merged with the crown, and even the title Duke of Cornwall will really be automatically recreated for George as it's not an inheritable title but one that belongs automatically to any person who meets the requirements.

In order for George to become the 2nd Duke of Cambridge William will have to die without having become King. Once he is King, he could recreate the title for George, but it's not really likely given as George will automatically be Duke of Cornwall.
Thanks Ish. Somehow, somewhere, I forgot that one little detail about titles merging with the Crown once one becomes King.

Then it is a good possibility that William's second son (or perhaps daughter if they ever go for equal primogeniture in the peerage) could be created the Duke of Cambridge.

This is such a fascinating subject for me. More twists and turns and ins and out and hidden niches than a murder mystery sometimes.
__________________
“In my walks, every man I meet is my superior in some way, and in that I learn from him.”
~~~Ralph Waldo Emerson~~~
Reply With Quote
  #2471  
Old 06-12-2014, 09:09 PM
CyrilVladisla's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Conneaut, United States
Posts: 2,807
Edward Windsor, Baron Downpatrick, is the son of the Earl of St. Andrews.
What is the royal history of the title of Baron Downpatrick?
Prince Albert Victor, the eldest son of Albert Edward, Prince of Wales, was the Duke of Clarence and Avondale.
Has an English or Scottish prince had the title of just Duke of Avondale?
Before his wedding day in 1947, Prince Philip was granted the distinction of being addressed as His Royal Highness.
Was this necessary because he had born as a Prince of Greece and thus would have been a Royal Highness?
Reply With Quote
  #2472  
Old 06-13-2014, 01:19 AM
wbenson's Avatar
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: -, United States
Posts: 2,340
It doesn't have much of a royal history. The first time the title was ever granted was 1934 (alongside the dukedom of Kent and the earldom of St. Andrews), and the current Lord Downpatrick is the first person to ever use it by courtesy.
Reply With Quote
  #2473  
Old 06-13-2014, 09:40 PM
CyrilVladisla's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Conneaut, United States
Posts: 2,807
Quote:
Originally Posted by wbenson View Post
It doesn't have much of a royal history. The first time the title was ever granted was 1934 (alongside the dukedom of Kent and the earldom of St. Andrews), and the current Lord Downpatrick is the first person to ever use it by courtesy.
Wbenson, Thank you for the information about the history of the title of Baron Downpatrick.
Reply With Quote
  #2474  
Old 10-10-2014, 11:52 AM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Balmoral, United Kingdom
Posts: 400
I have been reading through the Monarchy Under Charles thread, and although it highly unlikely to ever happen, I have been wondering what the lives of Royals who give up their styles and titles would be like after doing so.

For instance if the Duke of York's daughter's simply became Miss or Lady Beatrice and Eugenie Windsor-Mountbatten, several years later, would they still be seen and thought of as Royals? Likewise, if Edward had simply become Mr Windsor-Mountbatten prior to marriage, and led an entirely private life, would he and his family still be seen as being royal?
__________________
Virtually Royalty
Reply With Quote
  #2475  
Old 10-10-2014, 12:18 PM
cepe's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 5,709
Quote:
Originally Posted by royal-blue View Post
I have been reading through the Monarchy Under Charles thread, and although it highly unlikely to ever happen, I have been wondering what the lives of Royals who give up their styles and titles would be like after doing so.

For instance if the Duke of York's daughter's simply became Miss or Lady Beatrice and Eugenie Windsor-Mountbatten, several years later, would they still be seen and thought of as Royals? Likewise, if Edward had simply become Mr Windsor-Mountbatten prior to marriage, and led an entirely private life, would he and his family still be seen as being royal?
Both Zara and Peter Philips have never had a title but are regularly described and/or considered as royal.

so I think the answer to your question is yes, they would be considered royal, particularly Edward as the son of a Queen Regnant
__________________

This precious stone set in the silver sea,......
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England,
Reply With Quote
  #2476  
Old 10-10-2014, 01:01 PM
Skippyboo's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Atlanta, United States
Posts: 3,778
Not officially royal but member of the royal family. Like Peter and Zara, David Linley and Sarah Chatto- no royal duties but invited to royal events.


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community
Reply With Quote
  #2477  
Old 10-10-2014, 03:13 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is online now
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 3,229
The Duchess of Kent tries to not use her styles and titles in much of her life - when she does charity events and the like she asks to be introduced as Katharine, Duchess of Kent, and not HRH the Duchess of Kent. When she does royal duties it tends to be a part of the big family things, but when she gets recognition in the CC it's always with her proper titles.

I don't think there really are any ways for people who already have royal titles and status to give them up in Britain - Edward chose to have his children not be styled as royals before they were born, but he hasn't given up his own titles.
Reply With Quote
  #2478  
Old 11-03-2014, 05:19 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Balmoral, United Kingdom
Posts: 400
I was wondering why Prince George doesn't use his father's subsidiary title of Earl of Strathearn? Viscount Linley and Viscount Severn use their father's second title.

Likewise, Charles was never known as Earl of Merioneth, and William was never known as Earl of Chester and Carrick.

Is there a rule on using who can and cannot use their father's subsidiary titles?
__________________
Virtually Royalty
Reply With Quote
  #2479  
Old 11-03-2014, 05:30 PM
Skippyboo's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Atlanta, United States
Posts: 3,778
Questions about British Styles and Titles

The simplest answer that George actually has a title which is Prince of the UK so he doesn't use a courtesy title from his father. David Armstrong Jones is styled as a son of an Earl and so is James. If Edward and Sophie didn't decided to style their kids as children of a peer instead of a prince, then James and Louise would be HRH Prince James and Princess Louise of Wessex

A courtesy title is used for children of peers who are not Prince or Princess in their own right. The Kent current generation are HRH Prince and Princess. The children of the Duke of Kent are not HRHs so they are styled as children of a Duke


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community
Reply With Quote
  #2480  
Old 11-03-2014, 05:51 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is online now
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 3,229
Quote:
Originally Posted by royal-blue View Post
I was wondering why Prince George doesn't use his father's subsidiary title of Earl of Strathearn? Viscount Linley and Viscount Severn use their father's second title.

Likewise, Charles was never known as Earl of Merioneth, and William was never known as Earl of Chester and Carrick.

Is there a rule on using who can and cannot use their father's subsidiary titles?

You only use courtesy titles if you don't have your own titles. George is a Prince in his own right, therefore doesn't use any titles by courtesy - likewise with William and Charles. If Andrew had had a son, the son wouldn't have used any courtesy titles either - he would have been Prince Whatever of York.

The Wessex children don't have (or don't use) their own titles, so they use courtesy titles instead - Louise is styled as the daughter of an Earl, while James uses his father's subsidiary title as the heir apparent (only the heir apparent uses subsidiary titles).
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
british royal family, consort, kate, queenmother, spouse, styles and titles


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Titles and Styles of Harry, his Future Wife and Children Aussie Princess Prince Harry and Prince William 1572 05-22-2017 05:42 PM
Styles and Titles Nahla10 Ruling Family of Dubai 49 05-21-2017 04:02 PM
Non-British Styles and Titles Lord Sosnowitz Royal Ceremony and Protocol 735 01-30-2017 01:39 PM
Diana's Styles and Titles florawindsor Diana, Princess of Wales (1961-1997) 749 06-29-2016 06:02 PM
Abdication Beatrix and Inauguration WA: Titles, Names, Succession, Precedence Princess Robijn King Willem-Alexander, Queen Máxima and family 67 05-24-2013 03:14 PM




Popular Tags
albania ascot 2016 baptism best gown september 2016 best hat best outfit best outfit december birthday coronation coup d'etat crown princess mary crown princess mary fashion denmark duchess of cambridge duke of cambridge fashion and style fashion poll general news jewels king abdullah ii king carl gustaf and queen silvia king willem-alexander marriage member introduction monarchy new zealand norway november 2016 october 2016 official visit picture of the week prince charles prince joachim current events princess charlene eveningwear princess marie princess marie events princess mary princess mary casual style princess mary daytime fashion princess mary eveningwear princess mary fashion princess mary hats princess sofia queen letizia queen letizia casual outfits queen letizia daytime fashion queen letizia fashion queen margrethe queen mathilde queen maxima queen maxima casual wear queen maxima daytime fashion queen maxima fashion queen maxima hats queen maxima style queen rania queen rania eveningwear queen rania fashion queen silvia revolution september 2016 shah state visit succession sweden the duchess of cambridge casual wear the duchess of cambridge daytime fashion the duchess of cambridge fashion the duchess of cambridge hats tiara


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:23 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2017
Jelsoft Enterprises