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  #2441  
Old 03-30-2014, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
William takes his precedence from his father. If he is representing his father or The Queen, he would take precedence ahead of his uncles. Precedence also depends on who is present at the event.
This is an interesting discussion. I've always thought that after HM and the DoE, the senior line of the House of Windsor (heirs) would follow (Charles, Camilla, William/Kate, Harry) followed by the junior lines of the House of Windsor which would be Andrew and girls, then Edward and his family and then Anne and family.

I think I'd go bonkers if I really had to know exactly how the precedence works, which precedence is called for and who's standing in for who. Complicated game of follow the leader if you ask me.
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  #2442  
Old 03-30-2014, 07:48 PM
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Precedence is not the same as the line of succession. It is determined by the relationship of the person to the monarch - so children of the monarch come ahead of the grandchildren of the monarch.

In the situations we have seen listed here that seem to challenge that we need to remember that:

at the Remembrance Service Harry was representing Charles so precedence was determined as if Charles was there - so Harry took Charles' place and William took his precedence from being Charles' son as Charles' place was filled.

at the Paralympics Edward took his place due to his position with the Paralympic Organisation itself rather than as a younger son of the monarch.

at the closing ceremony of the Olympics - Harry took precedence over everyone else as he formally represented HM The Queen and so was in her place
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  #2443  
Old 03-30-2014, 08:57 PM
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I just went back and looked at the video from Remembrance Day 2012 when Charles was in NZ and William places his wreath at the Cenotaph ahead of Andrew and Edward.

This is an example of precedence right?
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  #2444  
Old 05-04-2014, 02:18 PM
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Titles: Out with the Old, in with the New?

I've been wondering about this lately: What happens to old titles when new ones are assumed? For example, when the Prince of Wales becomes king, I assume the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge will automatically become the Duke and Duchess of Cornwall. Does that mean that, at that moment, the Duke's current titles (Cambridge, Strathearn, Carickfergus) will become extinct and/or merge back into the crown? The same question for the Earl and Countess of Wessex: when the Earl assumes the Dukedom of Edinburgh, will all of his current titles be discarded or will be still hold them? Will Viscount Severn's courtesy title become, say, the Earl of Merioneth (one of the Dukedom's subsidiary titles?)
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  #2445  
Old 05-04-2014, 02:58 PM
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William's Cambridge titles will merge with the Crown when he becomes King and then can be issued again. The Duke of Cornwall is just for the eldest son of the monarch so it will go from Charles to William and then to George.

As for Edward, when Philip dies Charles inherits the Edinburgh titles and upon his accession to the throne when the Queen dies, all of Charles titles not tied to being heir apparent (which are then William's) are merged with the Crown. He could then issue LP for Edward to become Duke of Edinburgh. He doesn't have to give him secondary titles because Edward would retain his Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn titles.
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  #2446  
Old 05-04-2014, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by btsnyder View Post
I've been wondering about this lately: What happens to old titles when new ones are assumed? For example, when the Prince of Wales becomes king, I assume the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge will automatically become the Duke and Duchess of Cornwall. Does that mean that, at that moment, the Duke's current titles (Cambridge, Strathearn, Carickfergus) will become extinct and/or merge back into the crown? The same question for the Earl and Countess of Wessex: when the Earl assumes the Dukedom of Edinburgh, will all of his current titles be discarded or will be still hold them? Will Viscount Severn's courtesy title become, say, the Earl of Merioneth (one of the Dukedom's subsidiary titles?)
I believe that when Charles becomes King, William will become the Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge along with the other titles that go with the dukedoms. I'm sure that some of our more knowledgeable members of this forum can explain it more in depth than I can.
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  #2447  
Old 05-04-2014, 03:12 PM
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At the event of the QEII's demise, Charles will automatically become King and William will be HRH the Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge, until he is created the Prince of Wales. THen he will use his superior title. He will retain his subsidiary titles.
The titles merge with the Crown when a) he wears the Crown, b) if the titleholder were to die without having an issue (which is not the situation here, as were PWilliam to die (God forbid) his son will inherit his Dukedom of Cambridge and other titles, except for "Duke of Cornwall" and "Prince of Wales".

In order for the Earl of Wessex to be Duke of Edinburgh, the current Duke must die, his title must merge with the Crown. After that it is the sovereign's grace that will/can bestow the title.

There's also another thread regarding the titles of Wessex:
Titles of the Wessex Children

About the Duke of Edinburgh title:
The future of the Duke of Edinburgh title
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of...h#Future_Dukes
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  #2448  
Old 05-04-2014, 03:25 PM
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George could be named Prince of Wales if some thing happened to William before William became King. George would be Charles's Heir Apparent and eligible for the PoW title. He wouldn't be Duke of Cornwall since he isn't the eldest son of the sovereign.
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  #2449  
Old 05-04-2014, 03:31 PM
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Would P Harry be Duke of Cornwall then, or would that title only be used again when George is king and have a son?
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  #2450  
Old 05-04-2014, 03:38 PM
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Would P Harry be Duke of Cornwall then, or would that title only be used again when George is king and have a son?
Only the eldest son of the Monarch who is also heir to the throne can be Duke of Cornwall.

So when William becomes King, George will become Duke of Cornwall.

The title does not go to the eldest daughter who is heir to the throne, ie HMQ was never Duke (Duchess) of Cornwall.
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  #2451  
Old 05-04-2014, 03:43 PM
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I meant Would P Harry be Duke of Cornwall if P William had died, or would that title only be used again when George is king and have a son?

But I guess if he needed to be the heir as well, P Harry would only be Duke of Cornwall if something horrible happened and both P William and P George died...
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  #2452  
Old 05-04-2014, 03:45 PM
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Titles merge with a crown only when the person holding them becomes the monarch. Therefore, when Charles becomes King then all the titles he holds now will merge with the crown.

Titles become extinct when the holder dies without heirs. Therefore, if Charles were to die without becoming King then the title "Duke of Cornwall" would become extinct as there is no heir to it (as the conditions for the title don't allow there to be a heir).

When William becomes Duke of Cornwall he will still be Duke of Cambridge - his full title then will be Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge (Cornwall coming first because it is the elder title). Likewise, if Edward is created Duke of Edinburgh as is expected, he'll still be Earl of Wessex, that'll just become a subsidiary title (which in turn, will likely be the title that James uses).
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  #2453  
Old 05-04-2014, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danish girl View Post
I meant Would P Harry be Duke of Cornwall if P William had died, or would that title only be used again when George is king and have a son?

But I guess if he needed to be the heir as well, P Harry would only be Duke of Cornwall if something horrible happened and both P William and P George died...

The title is held by the monarch's eldest son who is the heir apparent. If Charles died today William, the heir apparent, wouldn't be able to use it as he isn't the monarch's son, and Andrew, the monarch's eldest son, wouldn't be able to use it as he isn't the heir apparent.

Anytime the next monarch has been someone other than the monarch's eldest son they didn't hold the title (so, in more "recent" terms, George III, William IV, Victoria, George VI, and Elizabeth II never held the title; George III was the monarch's grandson, and the others were all heir presumptives).
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  #2454  
Old 05-04-2014, 05:00 PM
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The best examples of what is being discussed are George III and George V.

George I created his grandson, Frederick, Duke of Edinburgh in 1726 (just as The Queen has created her grandson William, Duke of Cambridge). When his father succeeded to the throne as George II in 1727 he immediately became The Duke of Cornwall and Edinburgh - titles he held from 11th June 1727 until 8th January 1729 when he father decided to create him Prince of Wales. However when he died his eldest son, George, couldn't inherit the Cornwall title as he wasn't the heir apparent but could inherit the Edinburgh title which he did so George III became Duke of Edinburgh on the death of his father. Whereas George II took nearly two years to name his own eldest son and heir apparent Prince of Wales he took less than a month to give that title to his grandson.

George V was created Duke of York by his grandmother and when she died he was known as HRH The Duke of Cornwall and York (and it was using those titles that he opened the first Australian parliament on the 9th May, 1901). It was in November that year when his father created him Prince of Wales.

So based on those precedents....

When Charles becomes King, William will be HRH The Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge until he is created Prince of Wales - assuming that he is so created.

If Charles dies before becoming King, then the decision would rest with The Queen - does she create William as Prince of Wales or leave him as the Duke of Cambridge only.

If William dies before The Queen and Charles then George would inherit Cambridge and in time Charles could create him Prince of Wales but under the existing rules regarding the Cornwall (and Rothsay and other Scottish titles held by Charles) he would never hold those titles but... there has been talk of changing those rules so that the heir apparent can have the use of the Cornwall estates regardless of gender - no necessarily holding the title however.

So - Charles will inherit Edinburgh when his father dies as he is the heir apparent to both his mother's and father's titles. Should his father die before his mother we probably won't hear of the use of the Edinburgh title for some time. When both The Queen and Philip have died the announced agreement was that Charles would recreate the Edinburgh title for Edward. Should that happen Edward would be HRH The Duke of Edinburgh and James would use the courtesy title of Earl of Wessex - up from Viscount Severn.

William, in the normal course of events will take on Cornwall and Rothsay and maybe created Prince of Wales.

George will follow his father but... will only inherit Cambridge is William predeceases his father.

Once William is King then the Cambridge title will merge with the Crown and also be available for regrant should he so desire.
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  #2455  
Old 05-04-2014, 06:01 PM
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Bertie, that was beautifully put.

One correction; Frederick continued to hold the titles Duke of Cornwall and Edinburgh until his death, he just didn't use them primarily after being created Prince of Wales.

Interestingly, when he was king he created one of his brothers Duke of Edinburgh, allowing the title to continue (at least for a time).
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  #2456  
Old 05-04-2014, 06:31 PM
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If William and Kate have another son, he could be named Duke of Cambridge when William is King. Since the Gloucester and Kent dukedoms have several male heirs and Andrew may still be alive so the York dukedom wouldn't be free yet.
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  #2457  
Old 05-27-2014, 07:09 PM
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the fact Charles will cease to be a Prince the moment he ascends to the Throne.
IMO Charles will never cease to be a Prince as he was born one (first as the son of Princess Elizabeth, under Letters Patent by George VI and now as the son of the monarch, under letters patent by George V). And in fact, the title (or maybe style) of Prince will remain one of his most traditional, official titles (styles). It goes something like Most High, Most Mighty Prince, Lord Charles etc., etc. (not citing directly!)... We'll see or listen that surely at his accession and funeral and only on that two occassions, I think.
In the past, monarchs were always titled as Princes and Princesses and additionally, Kings and Queens of their realms, for example Princess Anne (or even Lady Anne!), Queen of Great Britain, Prince James, King of England, Prince Philip, King of Spain...
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  #2458  
Old 05-27-2014, 07:16 PM
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I'm confused. I thought Royals take their precedence only from the Sovereign.
You're absolutely right. The official precedence among members of the Royal Family is derived strictly from their rank of kinship to the CURRENT Sovereign. However, private precedence and simply the so-called life do not cover this at all, as we see Harry taking precedence over his uncles etc.
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  #2459  
Old 05-27-2014, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Skippyboo View Post
If William and Kate have another son, he could be named Duke of Cambridge when William is King. Since the Gloucester and Kent dukedoms have several male heirs and Andrew may still be alive so the York dukedom wouldn't be free yet.
When William becomes King, all his titles (with the exception of Prince of Wales if Charles invests him as such) will go directly to his eldest son George. In the peerage, all titles are inherited by the eldest male in relation to the title holder.
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  #2460  
Old 05-27-2014, 07:38 PM
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When William becomes King, all his titles (with the exception of Prince of Wales if Charles invests him as such) will go directly to his eldest son George. In the peerage, all titles are inherited by the eldest male in relation to the title holder.
When William becomes King all his titles will merge in the crown and George will become the next Duke of Cornwall and Duke of Rothesay in his right as the monarch's eldest son and heir apparent.
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