The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Reigning Houses > British Royals

Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #2441  
Old 03-30-2014, 12:59 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
The Dukedom will one day pass down to James, and then to his children, and so on.

The thing with royal dukedoms is that unless they're granted to the heir or the heir's heir then they're expected to one day cease to be royal. Currently, the heir apparents to the Dukedoms of Kent and Gloucester are not royals, meaning when the current dukes die they will cease to be royal dukedoms.

This will also happen with the Dukedom of Edinburgh. It will be a royal dukedom under Edward, a quasi-royal dukedom under James (likely he will not receive any CC recognition for his activities), and then will cease to be a royal dukedom at all with James' son. The organizations connected with the dukedom will continue, but will cease to have their royal connections (unless they take on a royal patron, which I could see as being likely).
They will always be "of the blood royal" even when the holder is not HRH as they were originally created for sons of The Sovereign (or in Philip's case for the future consort of a Sovereign) and passed in the male-line to his descendants. When and if they cease to be extant, they are only recreated for members of the royal family.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #2442  
Old 03-30-2014, 01:12 PM
Gentry
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Manchester, United Kingdom
Posts: 57
It's a hereditary title, so it'll pass to James, in the same way that the present Dukes of Kent and Gloucester are fairly minor royals. It somehow hadn't been an issue for years before then, because titles kept dying out - the previous Duke of Edinburgh (Queen Victoria's son Alfred) had no surviving sons, his brother the Duke of Connaught had no grandsons in the male line, and the various Hanoverian dukes kept failing to produce sons by recognised wives. There've been loads of Dukes of York but they've all either become king or had no surviving sons. I can't see James becoming a full-time working royal because of the title, though.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #2443  
Old 03-30-2014, 02:40 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: NN, Lithuania
Posts: 819
Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg View Post
They will always be "of the blood royal" even when the holder is not HRH as they were originally created for sons of The Sovereign (or in Philip's case for the future consort of a Sovereign) and passed in the male-line to his descendants. When and if they cease to be extant, they are only recreated for members of the royal family.
there is no such thing as "duke of the blood royal"
Reply With Quote
  #2444  
Old 03-30-2014, 02:55 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,343
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Harry was there 'representing Charles' and so took Charles' precedence and as Harry took Charles' precedence William took his precedence from being Charles' son, as if Charles was there.

Had neither William nor Harry been there representing Charles then Charles' position in the precedence would have been removed and we would have seen things differently but with Harry representing Charles they both took their precedence as if they were with Charles.

I'm confused. I thought Royals take their precedence only from the Sovereign.

If we're saying William and Harry take their precedence from Charles, this would still put Andrew and Edward ahead of them as they're taking their precedence as male children of the Sovereign.

The only conclusion I can come to is William both officially and unofficially takes precedence over his uncles.

During Remembrance Day , when Charles is absent William lays his wreath after the Duke of Edinburgh. He did this in 2011 or 12, doesn't this show for whatever reasons, Andrew and Edward come after William?
Reply With Quote
  #2445  
Old 03-30-2014, 03:04 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is online now
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 2,439
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spheno View Post
there is no such thing as "duke of the blood royal"

I think what branchg meant was that the peerage "Duke of Edinburgh" is one that is only created for royals - like the Dukes of York, Kent, Cambridge, etc.

This is true. If, after Edward's male-line dies out, the dukedom becomes extinct once again (or if at some point in the future it merges with the crown again) then the title will only be recreated for another royal. That doesn't mean that when James' hypothetical son holds the title he'll be royal in any way.

Regardless of the "royal" usage of certain titles, though, it isn't likely that any title other than a life peerage baron - one reserved for the use of royals or not - is going to be conferred on anyone who isn't a royal.
Reply With Quote
  #2446  
Old 03-30-2014, 03:06 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is online now
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 2,439
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
I'm confused. I thought Royals take their precedence only from the Sovereign.

If we're saying William and Harry take their precedence from Charles, this would still put Andrew and Edward ahead of them as they're taking their precedence as male children of the Sovereign.

The only conclusion I can come to is William both officially and unofficially takes precedence over his uncles.

During Remembrance Day , when Charles is absent William lays his wreath after the Duke of Edinburgh. He did this in 2011 or 12, doesn't this show for whatever reasons, Andrew and Edward come after William?

I believe that while officially William's precedence should be after his uncles, in practice we're seeing him take precedence before them more as he's in the direct line. Harry's precedence is still after them, but I think when he's with his father, filling in for his father, or even possibly with his brother, he might be bumped up.
Reply With Quote
  #2447  
Old 03-30-2014, 03:13 PM
Molly2101's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: England, United Kingdom
Posts: 2,787
Quote:
Originally Posted by EllieCat View Post
I remember a couple of years ago – and can't remember the context but it was an official thing, when Prince Edward and Sophie sat next to the Queen, and William and Kate were to the side (Prince Charles was not there).
That happened at the opening ceremony of the Paralympics in London 2012, but I think that was mainly because Edward was Patron of the Paralympics.
__________________
"I am yours, you are mine, of that be sure. You are locked in my heart, the little key is lost and now you must stay there forever."
Written by Princess Alix of Hesse and by Rhine in the diary of her fiance, Tsarevich Nicholas.
Reply With Quote
  #2448  
Old 03-30-2014, 05:52 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
I'm confused. I thought Royals take their precedence only from the Sovereign.

If we're saying William and Harry take their precedence from Charles, this would still put Andrew and Edward ahead of them as they're taking their precedence as male children of the Sovereign.

The only conclusion I can come to is William both officially and unofficially takes precedence over his uncles.

During Remembrance Day , when Charles is absent William lays his wreath after the Duke of Edinburgh. He did this in 2011 or 12, doesn't this show for whatever reasons, Andrew and Edward come after William?

William takes his precedence from his father. If he is representing his father or The Queen, he would take precedence ahead of his uncles. Precedence also depends on who is present at the event.
Reply With Quote
  #2449  
Old 03-30-2014, 06:02 PM
Osipi's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 4,377
Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg View Post
William takes his precedence from his father. If he is representing his father or The Queen, he would take precedence ahead of his uncles. Precedence also depends on who is present at the event.
This is an interesting discussion. I've always thought that after HM and the DoE, the senior line of the House of Windsor (heirs) would follow (Charles, Camilla, William/Kate, Harry) followed by the junior lines of the House of Windsor which would be Andrew and girls, then Edward and his family and then Anne and family.

I think I'd go bonkers if I really had to know exactly how the precedence works, which precedence is called for and who's standing in for who. Complicated game of follow the leader if you ask me.
__________________
“We live in a world where we have to hide to make love, while violence is practiced in broad daylight.”
~~~ John Lennon ~~~
Reply With Quote
  #2450  
Old 03-30-2014, 07:48 PM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 9,029
Precedence is not the same as the line of succession. It is determined by the relationship of the person to the monarch - so children of the monarch come ahead of the grandchildren of the monarch.

In the situations we have seen listed here that seem to challenge that we need to remember that:

at the Remembrance Service Harry was representing Charles so precedence was determined as if Charles was there - so Harry took Charles' place and William took his precedence from being Charles' son as Charles' place was filled.

at the Paralympics Edward took his place due to his position with the Paralympic Organisation itself rather than as a younger son of the monarch.

at the closing ceremony of the Olympics - Harry took precedence over everyone else as he formally represented HM The Queen and so was in her place
Reply With Quote
  #2451  
Old 03-30-2014, 08:57 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,343
I just went back and looked at the video from Remembrance Day 2012 when Charles was in NZ and William places his wreath at the Cenotaph ahead of Andrew and Edward.

This is an example of precedence right?
Reply With Quote
  #2452  
Old 05-04-2014, 02:18 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: San Francisco, United States
Posts: 216
Titles: Out with the Old, in with the New?

I've been wondering about this lately: What happens to old titles when new ones are assumed? For example, when the Prince of Wales becomes king, I assume the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge will automatically become the Duke and Duchess of Cornwall. Does that mean that, at that moment, the Duke's current titles (Cambridge, Strathearn, Carickfergus) will become extinct and/or merge back into the crown? The same question for the Earl and Countess of Wessex: when the Earl assumes the Dukedom of Edinburgh, will all of his current titles be discarded or will be still hold them? Will Viscount Severn's courtesy title become, say, the Earl of Merioneth (one of the Dukedom's subsidiary titles?)
Reply With Quote
  #2453  
Old 05-04-2014, 02:58 PM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Atlanta, United States
Posts: 1,720
William's Cambridge titles will merge with the Crown when he becomes King and then can be issued again. The Duke of Cornwall is just for the eldest son of the monarch so it will go from Charles to William and then to George.

As for Edward, when Philip dies Charles inherits the Edinburgh titles and upon his accession to the throne when the Queen dies, all of Charles titles not tied to being heir apparent (which are then William's) are merged with the Crown. He could then issue LP for Edward to become Duke of Edinburgh. He doesn't have to give him secondary titles because Edward would retain his Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn titles.
Reply With Quote
  #2454  
Old 05-04-2014, 03:00 PM
Osipi's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 4,377
Quote:
Originally Posted by btsnyder View Post
I've been wondering about this lately: What happens to old titles when new ones are assumed? For example, when the Prince of Wales becomes king, I assume the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge will automatically become the Duke and Duchess of Cornwall. Does that mean that, at that moment, the Duke's current titles (Cambridge, Strathearn, Carickfergus) will become extinct and/or merge back into the crown? The same question for the Earl and Countess of Wessex: when the Earl assumes the Dukedom of Edinburgh, will all of his current titles be discarded or will be still hold them? Will Viscount Severn's courtesy title become, say, the Earl of Merioneth (one of the Dukedom's subsidiary titles?)
I believe that when Charles becomes King, William will become the Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge along with the other titles that go with the dukedoms. I'm sure that some of our more knowledgeable members of this forum can explain it more in depth than I can.
__________________
“We live in a world where we have to hide to make love, while violence is practiced in broad daylight.”
~~~ John Lennon ~~~
Reply With Quote
  #2455  
Old 05-04-2014, 03:12 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
Posts: 1,421
At the event of the QEII's demise, Charles will automatically become King and William will be HRH the Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge, until he is created the Prince of Wales. THen he will use his superior title. He will retain his subsidiary titles.
The titles merge with the Crown when a) he wears the Crown, b) if the titleholder were to die without having an issue (which is not the situation here, as were PWilliam to die (God forbid) his son will inherit his Dukedom of Cambridge and other titles, except for "Duke of Cornwall" and "Prince of Wales".

In order for the Earl of Wessex to be Duke of Edinburgh, the current Duke must die, his title must merge with the Crown. After that it is the sovereign's grace that will/can bestow the title.

There's also another thread regarding the titles of Wessex:
Titles of the Wessex Children

About the Duke of Edinburgh title:
The future of the Duke of Edinburgh title
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of...h#Future_Dukes
Reply With Quote
  #2456  
Old 05-04-2014, 03:25 PM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Atlanta, United States
Posts: 1,720
George could be named Prince of Wales if some thing happened to William before William became King. George would be Charles's Heir Apparent and eligible for the PoW title. He wouldn't be Duke of Cornwall since he isn't the eldest son of the sovereign.
Reply With Quote
  #2457  
Old 05-04-2014, 03:31 PM
Danish girl's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Kardemommeby, Denmark
Posts: 220
Would P Harry be Duke of Cornwall then, or would that title only be used again when George is king and have a son?
__________________
“Weeds are flowers, too, once you get to know them.”
― A.A. Milne
Reply With Quote
  #2458  
Old 05-04-2014, 03:38 PM
cepe's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 4,881
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danish girl View Post
Would P Harry be Duke of Cornwall then, or would that title only be used again when George is king and have a son?
Only the eldest son of the Monarch who is also heir to the throne can be Duke of Cornwall.

So when William becomes King, George will become Duke of Cornwall.

The title does not go to the eldest daughter who is heir to the throne, ie HMQ was never Duke (Duchess) of Cornwall.
__________________

This precious stone set in the silver sea,......
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England,
Reply With Quote
  #2459  
Old 05-04-2014, 03:43 PM
Danish girl's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Kardemommeby, Denmark
Posts: 220
I meant Would P Harry be Duke of Cornwall if P William had died, or would that title only be used again when George is king and have a son?

But I guess if he needed to be the heir as well, P Harry would only be Duke of Cornwall if something horrible happened and both P William and P George died...
__________________
“Weeds are flowers, too, once you get to know them.”
― A.A. Milne
Reply With Quote
  #2460  
Old 05-04-2014, 03:45 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is online now
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 2,439
Titles merge with a crown only when the person holding them becomes the monarch. Therefore, when Charles becomes King then all the titles he holds now will merge with the crown.

Titles become extinct when the holder dies without heirs. Therefore, if Charles were to die without becoming King then the title "Duke of Cornwall" would become extinct as there is no heir to it (as the conditions for the title don't allow there to be a heir).

When William becomes Duke of Cornwall he will still be Duke of Cambridge - his full title then will be Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge (Cornwall coming first because it is the elder title). Likewise, if Edward is created Duke of Edinburgh as is expected, he'll still be Earl of Wessex, that'll just become a subsidiary title (which in turn, will likely be the title that James uses).
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
british royal family, consort, spouse, styles and titles


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Titles and Styles of Harry, his Future Wife and Children Aussie Princess Prince Harry and Prince William 1115 01-14-2015 03:50 PM
Questions About [non-British] Styles and Titles Lord Sosnowitz Royal Ceremony and Protocol 729 10-09-2014 04:24 PM
Diana's Styles and Titles florawindsor Diana, Princess of Wales (1961-1997) 573 11-14-2013 11:59 AM
Styles and Titles Nahla10 Ruling Family of Dubai 36 08-08-2013 12:05 PM
Abdication Beatrix and Inauguration WA: Titles, Names, Succession, Precedence Princess Robijn King Willem-Alexander and Queen Máxima and family 67 05-24-2013 03:14 PM




Popular Tags
belgium brussels carl philip charlene crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria current events death fashion fashion poll germany grand duke henri hohenzollern infanta leonor infanta sofia jordan king carl xvi gustav king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander letizia luxembourg nobility official visit ottoman picture of the week poland president hollande president komorowski prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince daniel prince floris prince henrik princess aimee princess alexia (2005 -) princess ariane princess astrid princess beatrix princess catharina-amalia princess charlene princess madeleine princess mary princess mette-marit princess of asturias queen fabiola queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen paola queen rania queen silvia royal royal fashion sofia hellqvist spain state visit stockholm sweden the hague visit wedding willem-alexander



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:10 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2015
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]