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  #2421  
Old 03-30-2014, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
They will always be "of the blood royal" even when the holder is not HRH as they were originally created for sons of The Sovereign (or in Philip's case for the future consort of a Sovereign) and passed in the male-line to his descendants. When and if they cease to be extant, they are only recreated for members of the royal family.
there is no such thing as "duke of the blood royal"
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  #2422  
Old 03-30-2014, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Harry was there 'representing Charles' and so took Charles' precedence and as Harry took Charles' precedence William took his precedence from being Charles' son, as if Charles was there.

Had neither William nor Harry been there representing Charles then Charles' position in the precedence would have been removed and we would have seen things differently but with Harry representing Charles they both took their precedence as if they were with Charles.

I'm confused. I thought Royals take their precedence only from the Sovereign.

If we're saying William and Harry take their precedence from Charles, this would still put Andrew and Edward ahead of them as they're taking their precedence as male children of the Sovereign.

The only conclusion I can come to is William both officially and unofficially takes precedence over his uncles.

During Remembrance Day , when Charles is absent William lays his wreath after the Duke of Edinburgh. He did this in 2011 or 12, doesn't this show for whatever reasons, Andrew and Edward come after William?
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  #2423  
Old 03-30-2014, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Spheno View Post
there is no such thing as "duke of the blood royal"

I think what branchg meant was that the peerage "Duke of Edinburgh" is one that is only created for royals - like the Dukes of York, Kent, Cambridge, etc.

This is true. If, after Edward's male-line dies out, the dukedom becomes extinct once again (or if at some point in the future it merges with the crown again) then the title will only be recreated for another royal. That doesn't mean that when James' hypothetical son holds the title he'll be royal in any way.

Regardless of the "royal" usage of certain titles, though, it isn't likely that any title other than a life peerage baron - one reserved for the use of royals or not - is going to be conferred on anyone who isn't a royal.
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  #2424  
Old 03-30-2014, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
I'm confused. I thought Royals take their precedence only from the Sovereign.

If we're saying William and Harry take their precedence from Charles, this would still put Andrew and Edward ahead of them as they're taking their precedence as male children of the Sovereign.

The only conclusion I can come to is William both officially and unofficially takes precedence over his uncles.

During Remembrance Day , when Charles is absent William lays his wreath after the Duke of Edinburgh. He did this in 2011 or 12, doesn't this show for whatever reasons, Andrew and Edward come after William?

I believe that while officially William's precedence should be after his uncles, in practice we're seeing him take precedence before them more as he's in the direct line. Harry's precedence is still after them, but I think when he's with his father, filling in for his father, or even possibly with his brother, he might be bumped up.
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  #2425  
Old 03-30-2014, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by EllieCat View Post
I remember a couple of years ago – and can't remember the context but it was an official thing, when Prince Edward and Sophie sat next to the Queen, and William and Kate were to the side (Prince Charles was not there).
That happened at the opening ceremony of the Paralympics in London 2012, but I think that was mainly because Edward was Patron of the Paralympics.
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  #2426  
Old 03-30-2014, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
I'm confused. I thought Royals take their precedence only from the Sovereign.

If we're saying William and Harry take their precedence from Charles, this would still put Andrew and Edward ahead of them as they're taking their precedence as male children of the Sovereign.

The only conclusion I can come to is William both officially and unofficially takes precedence over his uncles.

During Remembrance Day , when Charles is absent William lays his wreath after the Duke of Edinburgh. He did this in 2011 or 12, doesn't this show for whatever reasons, Andrew and Edward come after William?

William takes his precedence from his father. If he is representing his father or The Queen, he would take precedence ahead of his uncles. Precedence also depends on who is present at the event.
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  #2427  
Old 03-30-2014, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
William takes his precedence from his father. If he is representing his father or The Queen, he would take precedence ahead of his uncles. Precedence also depends on who is present at the event.
This is an interesting discussion. I've always thought that after HM and the DoE, the senior line of the House of Windsor (heirs) would follow (Charles, Camilla, William/Kate, Harry) followed by the junior lines of the House of Windsor which would be Andrew and girls, then Edward and his family and then Anne and family.

I think I'd go bonkers if I really had to know exactly how the precedence works, which precedence is called for and who's standing in for who. Complicated game of follow the leader if you ask me.
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  #2428  
Old 03-30-2014, 07:48 PM
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Precedence is not the same as the line of succession. It is determined by the relationship of the person to the monarch - so children of the monarch come ahead of the grandchildren of the monarch.

In the situations we have seen listed here that seem to challenge that we need to remember that:

at the Remembrance Service Harry was representing Charles so precedence was determined as if Charles was there - so Harry took Charles' place and William took his precedence from being Charles' son as Charles' place was filled.

at the Paralympics Edward took his place due to his position with the Paralympic Organisation itself rather than as a younger son of the monarch.

at the closing ceremony of the Olympics - Harry took precedence over everyone else as he formally represented HM The Queen and so was in her place
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  #2429  
Old 03-30-2014, 08:57 PM
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I just went back and looked at the video from Remembrance Day 2012 when Charles was in NZ and William places his wreath at the Cenotaph ahead of Andrew and Edward.

This is an example of precedence right?
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  #2430  
Old 05-04-2014, 02:18 PM
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Titles: Out with the Old, in with the New?

I've been wondering about this lately: What happens to old titles when new ones are assumed? For example, when the Prince of Wales becomes king, I assume the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge will automatically become the Duke and Duchess of Cornwall. Does that mean that, at that moment, the Duke's current titles (Cambridge, Strathearn, Carickfergus) will become extinct and/or merge back into the crown? The same question for the Earl and Countess of Wessex: when the Earl assumes the Dukedom of Edinburgh, will all of his current titles be discarded or will be still hold them? Will Viscount Severn's courtesy title become, say, the Earl of Merioneth (one of the Dukedom's subsidiary titles?)
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  #2431  
Old 05-04-2014, 02:58 PM
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William's Cambridge titles will merge with the Crown when he becomes King and then can be issued again. The Duke of Cornwall is just for the eldest son of the monarch so it will go from Charles to William and then to George.

As for Edward, when Philip dies Charles inherits the Edinburgh titles and upon his accession to the throne when the Queen dies, all of Charles titles not tied to being heir apparent (which are then William's) are merged with the Crown. He could then issue LP for Edward to become Duke of Edinburgh. He doesn't have to give him secondary titles because Edward would retain his Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn titles.
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  #2432  
Old 05-04-2014, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by btsnyder View Post
I've been wondering about this lately: What happens to old titles when new ones are assumed? For example, when the Prince of Wales becomes king, I assume the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge will automatically become the Duke and Duchess of Cornwall. Does that mean that, at that moment, the Duke's current titles (Cambridge, Strathearn, Carickfergus) will become extinct and/or merge back into the crown? The same question for the Earl and Countess of Wessex: when the Earl assumes the Dukedom of Edinburgh, will all of his current titles be discarded or will be still hold them? Will Viscount Severn's courtesy title become, say, the Earl of Merioneth (one of the Dukedom's subsidiary titles?)
I believe that when Charles becomes King, William will become the Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge along with the other titles that go with the dukedoms. I'm sure that some of our more knowledgeable members of this forum can explain it more in depth than I can.
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  #2433  
Old 05-04-2014, 03:12 PM
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At the event of the QEII's demise, Charles will automatically become King and William will be HRH the Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge, until he is created the Prince of Wales. THen he will use his superior title. He will retain his subsidiary titles.
The titles merge with the Crown when a) he wears the Crown, b) if the titleholder were to die without having an issue (which is not the situation here, as were PWilliam to die (God forbid) his son will inherit his Dukedom of Cambridge and other titles, except for "Duke of Cornwall" and "Prince of Wales".

In order for the Earl of Wessex to be Duke of Edinburgh, the current Duke must die, his title must merge with the Crown. After that it is the sovereign's grace that will/can bestow the title.

There's also another thread regarding the titles of Wessex:
Titles of the Wessex Children

About the Duke of Edinburgh title:
The future of the Duke of Edinburgh title
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of...h#Future_Dukes
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  #2434  
Old 05-04-2014, 03:25 PM
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George could be named Prince of Wales if some thing happened to William before William became King. George would be Charles's Heir Apparent and eligible for the PoW title. He wouldn't be Duke of Cornwall since he isn't the eldest son of the sovereign.
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  #2435  
Old 05-04-2014, 03:31 PM
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Would P Harry be Duke of Cornwall then, or would that title only be used again when George is king and have a son?
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  #2436  
Old 05-04-2014, 03:38 PM
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Would P Harry be Duke of Cornwall then, or would that title only be used again when George is king and have a son?
Only the eldest son of the Monarch who is also heir to the throne can be Duke of Cornwall.

So when William becomes King, George will become Duke of Cornwall.

The title does not go to the eldest daughter who is heir to the throne, ie HMQ was never Duke (Duchess) of Cornwall.
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  #2437  
Old 05-04-2014, 03:43 PM
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I meant Would P Harry be Duke of Cornwall if P William had died, or would that title only be used again when George is king and have a son?

But I guess if he needed to be the heir as well, P Harry would only be Duke of Cornwall if something horrible happened and both P William and P George died...
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  #2438  
Old 05-04-2014, 03:45 PM
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Titles merge with a crown only when the person holding them becomes the monarch. Therefore, when Charles becomes King then all the titles he holds now will merge with the crown.

Titles become extinct when the holder dies without heirs. Therefore, if Charles were to die without becoming King then the title "Duke of Cornwall" would become extinct as there is no heir to it (as the conditions for the title don't allow there to be a heir).

When William becomes Duke of Cornwall he will still be Duke of Cambridge - his full title then will be Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge (Cornwall coming first because it is the elder title). Likewise, if Edward is created Duke of Edinburgh as is expected, he'll still be Earl of Wessex, that'll just become a subsidiary title (which in turn, will likely be the title that James uses).
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  #2439  
Old 05-04-2014, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Danish girl View Post
I meant Would P Harry be Duke of Cornwall if P William had died, or would that title only be used again when George is king and have a son?

But I guess if he needed to be the heir as well, P Harry would only be Duke of Cornwall if something horrible happened and both P William and P George died...

The title is held by the monarch's eldest son who is the heir apparent. If Charles died today William, the heir apparent, wouldn't be able to use it as he isn't the monarch's son, and Andrew, the monarch's eldest son, wouldn't be able to use it as he isn't the heir apparent.

Anytime the next monarch has been someone other than the monarch's eldest son they didn't hold the title (so, in more "recent" terms, George III, William IV, Victoria, George VI, and Elizabeth II never held the title; George III was the monarch's grandson, and the others were all heir presumptives).
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  #2440  
Old 05-04-2014, 05:00 PM
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The best examples of what is being discussed are George III and George V.

George I created his grandson, Frederick, Duke of Edinburgh in 1726 (just as The Queen has created her grandson William, Duke of Cambridge). When his father succeeded to the throne as George II in 1727 he immediately became The Duke of Cornwall and Edinburgh - titles he held from 11th June 1727 until 8th January 1729 when he father decided to create him Prince of Wales. However when he died his eldest son, George, couldn't inherit the Cornwall title as he wasn't the heir apparent but could inherit the Edinburgh title which he did so George III became Duke of Edinburgh on the death of his father. Whereas George II took nearly two years to name his own eldest son and heir apparent Prince of Wales he took less than a month to give that title to his grandson.

George V was created Duke of York by his grandmother and when she died he was known as HRH The Duke of Cornwall and York (and it was using those titles that he opened the first Australian parliament on the 9th May, 1901). It was in November that year when his father created him Prince of Wales.

So based on those precedents....

When Charles becomes King, William will be HRH The Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge until he is created Prince of Wales - assuming that he is so created.

If Charles dies before becoming King, then the decision would rest with The Queen - does she create William as Prince of Wales or leave him as the Duke of Cambridge only.

If William dies before The Queen and Charles then George would inherit Cambridge and in time Charles could create him Prince of Wales but under the existing rules regarding the Cornwall (and Rothsay and other Scottish titles held by Charles) he would never hold those titles but... there has been talk of changing those rules so that the heir apparent can have the use of the Cornwall estates regardless of gender - no necessarily holding the title however.

So - Charles will inherit Edinburgh when his father dies as he is the heir apparent to both his mother's and father's titles. Should his father die before his mother we probably won't hear of the use of the Edinburgh title for some time. When both The Queen and Philip have died the announced agreement was that Charles would recreate the Edinburgh title for Edward. Should that happen Edward would be HRH The Duke of Edinburgh and James would use the courtesy title of Earl of Wessex - up from Viscount Severn.

William, in the normal course of events will take on Cornwall and Rothsay and maybe created Prince of Wales.

George will follow his father but... will only inherit Cambridge is William predeceases his father.

Once William is King then the Cambridge title will merge with the Crown and also be available for regrant should he so desire.
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