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  #2341  
Old 11-16-2013, 03:06 PM
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A new question (I think!) - does a person's style and title change at all if there becomes a regency?
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Old 11-16-2013, 03:16 PM
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Is there a reason why queens consort aren't styled, for example, Queen Charles? (sounds a bit silly I know.) Camilla is obviously Princess Charles as a courtesy and doesn't hold the princess title in her own right - but why does it differ for queens consort? They, too assume their titles and styling from their husband (the king) don't they?
While I understand where you're going here, the answer is actually really simple: a Queen's title isn't "Queen [Name]" it's "The Queen." No need for either her name or her husband's.

A consort's name comes into play when she is the Dowager Queen (or a Queen Mother, which is a type of Dowager Queen). So, Mary of Teck, for example, was HM The Queen while George V was alive, and became HM Queen Mary after his death.

[QUOTE="Osipi;1618670"Could it be that Queen Consort is more of a description of the type of Queen Camilla would be? I've seen the Queen Mum referred to as HM Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother but that was to differentiate between mother and daughter that have the same first names. As far as I know, I've never heard HM addressed as HM, The Queen Regnant.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. HM's title (the shortened form) is just The Queen. The longer form just adds her name and realms and secondary titles - at no point is it explicitly stated in her title that she's the Queen Regent, it's simply implied that you know that given as she's the monarch.

The Queen Mother's title took form because she had the same given name as HM. Had they had different names then HM would have been The Queen and the Queen Mother would have been Queen [Name], much like with previous consorts - Mary of Teck had been Queen Mother during the reigns of Edward VIII and George VI but didn't use the distinction, same with Alexandra.
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  #2343  
Old 11-16-2013, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Jacknch View Post
A new question (I think!) - does a person's style and title change at all if there becomes a regency?
A title changes, the style stays the same.

We see this with George IV. Prior to becoming regent he was HRH The Prince of Wales. After becoming regent he was HRH The Prince Regent - he was still PoW, but Prince Regent was the higher title.
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Old 11-16-2013, 04:06 PM
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In the case of Princess Michael, she is using the feminine styling from her husband Prince Michael who holds no other titles for her to use. I believe that the full title of a Queen Consort is HM The Queen as her husband is HM The King. Could it be that Queen Consort is more of a description of the type of Queen Camilla would be? I've seen the Queen Mum referred to as HM Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother but that was to differentiate between mother and daughter that have the same first names. As far as I know, I've never heard HM addressed as HM, The Queen Regnant.
Once a woman becomes Queen Consort, she is HM The Queen as the wife of The Sovereign, but she is also HM Queen Christian Name in her own right for life. If she is widowed, she becomes a dowager queen with precedence after a regnant Queen or Queen Consort.

The Queen Mother used the style of "HM Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother" to differentiate herself from her daughter, plus she was the first dowager queen to ever see a daughter become The Sovereign.
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Old 11-16-2013, 04:16 PM
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The Queen Mother used the style of "HM Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother" to differentiate herself from her daughter, plus she was the first dowager queen to ever see a daughter become The Sovereign.
What does that have to do with anything?

The title Queen Mother doesn't mean that the individual is the Queen's Mother. It means that the individual is a former Queen Consort who is also the current monarch's mother, regardless of the gender of the monarch.

Elizabeth, Mary, and Alexandra were all Queen Mothers, but only Elizabeth used the title. Prior to Alexandra, you'd have to go back to Henrietta Maria of France to have a mother of the monarch survive into the reign of her son (Charles II).
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Old 11-16-2013, 04:35 PM
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What does that have to do with anything?

The title Queen Mother doesn't mean that the individual is the Queen's Mother. It means that the individual is a former Queen Consort who is also the current monarch's mother, regardless of the gender of the monarch.

Elizabeth, Mary, and Alexandra were all Queen Mothers, but only Elizabeth used the title. Prior to Alexandra, you'd have to go back to Henrietta Maria of France to have a mother of the monarch survive into the reign of her son (Charles II).
You are right Ish about that one. The title did exist before Elizabeth (the Queen Mother) but she is the only one to hold that title and I read that The Queen Mother hated the title Dowager Queen and after Queen Mary died turned it down even so she was still a dowager Queen. She opted to hold the title Queen mother instead making her the first. It also helped eased any future confusion because Queen Elizabeth had the same name as her mother

in the future Catherine will be a Queen Mother when Prince George comes to the throne but whether she hold the title who knows, we will have to just wait and see. that will be a long long long time from now. We will talk about tat them, Hopeful Royal Forum will still exist by then.
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  #2347  
Old 11-17-2013, 04:52 PM
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I found an article form 1953 on Google Archives which referred to Queen Mary as 'Queen Mother Mary'

The Tuscaloosa News - Google News Archive Search
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  #2348  
Old 11-18-2013, 10:18 PM
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Interesting - especially as the article appears to be from the day that Mary died.

So, a look at Wikipedia shows that Queen Mother is actually a style, not a title, and that it was one held by Alexandra, Mary, and Elizabeth at various points in their lives, but not used by all. It's not clear if Alexandra used it, but Mary disliked it because she thought it made her sound old. When Elizabeth used it at first I can see it having been to distinguish her from both her daughter - The Queen - and her mother-in-law - The Dowager Queen. Of course at that point both Mary and Elizabeth would have been Dowagers, but only Elizabeth was also Queen Mother (Mary not being the mother of the current monarch).
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  #2349  
Old 11-19-2013, 02:14 AM
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A title changes, the style stays the same.

We see this with George IV. Prior to becoming regent he was HRH The Prince of Wales. After becoming regent he was HRH The Prince Regent - he was still PoW, but Prince Regent was the higher title.
His correct title was HRH The Prince of Wales, Regent of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

Prince Regent was the diminutive but not the official title.
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Old 11-19-2013, 02:20 AM
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Hypothetical question. Can a female hereditary peer keep her title if she married into the BRF and became Queen Consort? I know that the King cannot also be a member of the peerage.
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Old 11-19-2013, 02:34 AM
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No, I think I read somewhere that foreign titles are not recognised. And that women always take the title of the men
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Old 11-19-2013, 02:46 AM
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Foreign titles aren't recognised but British ones are.

If a British woman with a title in her own right married into the BRF she would also keep her own title as well as take on her husband's titles - just as The Queen, Anne, Margaret and Mary kept their own titles of Princess when they married. However if the eldest child was a boy the title would merge with the Crown when said child become monarch.
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Old 11-19-2013, 02:47 AM
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Foreign titles can't be used in Britain, but it's been debated whether or not members of the BRF who were foreign royals prior to their marriage actually give up their status or simply stop using their foreign titles.

Case in point, the DoE. Prior to his engagement he was a Prince of Greece and Denmark, but he stopped using such titles before being created the DoE. As there's no evidence of him renouncing his titles, it's debated whether or not he still holds them.

With women, there is the fact that women who marry British nobles (or unmarried men) keep their titles as well as taking their husband's titles - so, Princess Margaret was (during her marriage) HRH Princess Margaret, Countess of Snowdon. Therefore, you kind of have to wonder if women who marry into the family also keep their titles, even if they don't use them. It's not really been made clear on just about any count.
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Old 11-19-2013, 03:00 AM
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Foreign titles aren't recognised but British ones are.

If a British woman with a title in her own right married into the BRF she would also keep her own title as well as take on her husband's titles - just as The Queen, Anne, Margaret and Mary kept their own titles of Princess when they married. However if the eldest child was a boy the title would merge with the Crown when said child become monarch.
Thank you. I was thinking of a british peerage.
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Old 11-19-2013, 03:44 AM
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So if one day Harry were to marry Isabel Alice of Mar (born 1991 so not completely far-fetched), who, all going well, will one day become Mistress of Mar and then ultimately 33rd Countess of Mar, how would she be styled and titled after becoming Countess? Assuming Harry were to become a Duke of something, would she be HRH Duchess of (blank), the Countess of Mar, or HRH the Countess of Mar, Duchess of (blank), or something else entirely?
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Old 11-19-2013, 04:43 AM
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Foreign titles can't be used in Britain, but it's been debated whether or not members of the BRF who were foreign royals prior to their marriage actually give up their status or simply stop using their foreign titles.

Case in point, the DoE. Prior to his engagement he was a Prince of Greece and Denmark, but he stopped using such titles before being created the DoE. As there's no evidence of him renouncing his titles, it's debated whether or not he still holds them.

With women, there is the fact that women who marry British nobles (or unmarried men) keep their titles as well as taking their husband's titles - so, Princess Margaret was (during her marriage) HRH Princess Margaret, Countess of Snowdon. Therefore, you kind of have to wonder if women who marry into the family also keep their titles, even if they don't use them. It's not really been made clear on just about any count.
Would not Philip had to renounce his titles as part of the naturalization process that he went thru before becoming engaged? He definitely stopped using them then.

If Harry married a British peeress, she would keep her title but she would use the highest title which would mostly likely be her husband's if Harry is given a dukedom on marriage.
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Old 11-19-2013, 04:45 AM
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A similar scenario has already happened in the past, when HRH Prince Arthur of Connaught married to the Duchess of Fife. After their marriage, she became HRH Princess Arthur of Connaught, Duchess of Fife.
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Old 11-19-2013, 04:47 PM
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A similar scenario has already happened in the past, when HRH Prince Arthur of Connaught married to the Duchess of Fife. After their marriage, she became HRH Princess Arthur of Connaught, Duchess of Fife.
Ah, yes! We have a precedent. Thank you.
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Old 11-20-2013, 01:21 AM
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The Duchess of Fife is a precedent, and an interesting one at that.

Prior to her marriage she was Her Highness The Duchess of Fife - her maternal grandfather was Edward VII and he had granted her and her sister the title of Princess (this was before the 1917 LPs).

According to her Wikipedia page, after her marriage she became HRH The Duchess of Fife, but according to her husband's page they were collectively THR Prince and Princess Arthur of Connaught. To me this suggests that when she was with her husband she was Princess Arthur but when she wasn't with him she was Duchess of Fife.

If I'm right on that and Harry were to marry the future Countess of Mar then she would become HRH Princess Harry of Wales (or HRH Duchess of Wherever) when with her husband, and HRH The Countess of Mar when not with him.
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Old 11-20-2013, 01:42 AM
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I just found a web page for the Barony of Cromar which has a lot of information about the Duchess of Fife and the Connaughts. I can't vouch for its accuracy but it seems thorough. Cromar - Legacy On the page dedicated to the Duchess of Fife, it says, "After their marriage, Alexandra was generally referred to as HRH Princess Arthur of Connaught, or in some documents HRH Princess Arthur of Connaught (Duchess of Fife). This followed the tradition of a wife taking the style and title of her husband, even although Alexandra was a peeress in her own right."
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