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  #2341  
Old 11-14-2013, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Huddo74 View Post
Is Catherines full title HRH Princess William of wales the Duchess of Cambridge?...
She is Her Royal Highness Princess William Arthur Philip Louis, Duchess of Cambridge, Countess of Strathearn, Baroness Carrickfergus.

Prince William is not "of Wales" anymore.
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  #2342  
Old 11-14-2013, 08:00 PM
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It is a courtesy style signifying a blood relationship to The Sovereign and degree of succession to the throne. Princes and Princesses do hold superior rank and precedence to Peers as HRH, but remain commoners unless they are raised to the Peerage or become The Sovereign.
I am fully aware of this - but many people aren't and can't understand why Kate isn't called 'Princess' and so think that she doesn't have that right when the reason she isn't called Princess Kate/Catherine/William is that William was promoted from commoner to peer of the realm on their wedding day - while she went from commoner to commoner and simply changed her style.
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  #2343  
Old 11-15-2013, 02:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
As we're going down this road again, I kind of find it ironic that should Parliament pass legislation to allow the title of Princess Consort for Camilla, she will have attained something that no royal spouse has. She would be Princess Camilla in her own right. No Queen Consort has ever attained that. To me, that would be a slap in the face to those that have gone before her.
If Camilla is granted the title of Princess Consort, she would would be The Princess Consort, not Princess Camilla.
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  #2344  
Old 11-15-2013, 02:08 AM
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But the point will still remain that a royal title will have to be created for Camilla - something that no other female consort has had done.

In creating her HRH The Princess Consort they're creating her a Princess of the United Kingdom in her own right. Although, personally I don't have a problem with that as it makes her equal to other male consorts that have preceded her - the DoE is a Prince of the United Kingdom in his own right. In comparing Camilla to Sophie in this case we're forgetting that Camilla is married to the heir (and when this all happens, she'll be married to the monarch), while Sophie isn't.
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  #2345  
Old 11-15-2013, 05:41 AM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
It was made clear in 2005 that legislation would be required for Camilla to use the title of Princess Consort once Charles becomes King.
Was it? Would you have any links in support? I thought all that was clarified was that she would be legally the Princess of Wales and HM The Queen.
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  #2346  
Old 11-15-2013, 06:36 AM
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Was it? Would you have any links in support? I thought all that was clarified was that she would be legally the Princess of Wales and HM The Queen.
Was legislation required for Prince Albert to be granted the title Prince Consort? If not, then I cannot imagine legislation will be needed if the Duchess of Cornwall becomes known as Princess Consort.

I'm not sure whether legality comes into any of this, is it not more a customery related issue than a legal one?
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  #2347  
Old 11-15-2013, 07:12 AM
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Giving a Prince the title of Prince Consort required LPs - just as creating a Prince any title such as Duke of Cambridge.

Taking away a title requires legislation - particularly when the title is to deprive a woman of her rights to her husband's titles.

As she stops being a Princess when Charles becomes King she will have to be deprived of her title of Queen and then be created a Princess - as she will no longer be a Princess when she is Queen.
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  #2348  
Old 11-15-2013, 07:19 AM
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I don't think anyone is suggesting that Camilla will stop being Queen (which, I agree, will require legislation). She will legally remain so, quite as she is currently the Princess of Wales. She could merely be styled as HRH Princess Consort, which I think could be effected by LPs.
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  #2349  
Old 11-15-2013, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by muriel View Post
I don't think anyone is suggesting that Camilla will stop being Queen (which, I agree, will require legislation). She will legally remain so, quite as she is currently the Princess of Wales. She could merely be styled as HRH Princess Consort, which I think could be effected by LPs.
Camilla can only be styled by the titles held by Charles as she has no title of her own. Her rank is HRH The Princess Charles as the wife of a son of The Sovereign. She currently uses Duchess of Cornwall as her title, which is fine because her husband is The Duke.

Once Charles is King, she will cease to be a Princess and become Queen. For her to use the style of Princess Consort, she has to be created a Princess of the UK in her own right. While this can be done by issuing Letters Patent, a legal question would arise that Parliament would have to address due to the fact there is no precedent for such a move and implies a morganatic marriage.

So, it could happen, yes, but only if Parliament agrees there is no issue, which I doubt will be the case.
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  #2350  
Old 11-15-2013, 11:10 AM
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The Monarchy homepage says the following (the tone and language is interesting):
Born Camilla Rosemary Shand, after her marriage to The Prince of Wales, Her Royal Highness chose to use the title The Duchess of Cornwall.

In Scotland, Her Royal Highness is known as The Duchess of Rothesay.

As The Prince is the Earl of Chester, Her Royal Highness also holds the title The Countess of Chester.

When The Prince accedes to The Throne, it is intended that The Duchess will use the title HRH The Princess Consort. http://www.royal.gov.uk/ThecurrentRo...andTitles.aspx

There is less on the POW website and the difference between the two in intriguing:
Upon her marriage to The Prince of Wales, Her Royal Highness decided to use the title The Duchess of Cornwall, as her husband is also known as The Duke of Cornwall.

When in Scotland, Her Royal Highness is known as The Duchess of Rothesay.
Her Royal Highness was granted a Royal Coat of Arms by The Queen soon after her marriage to The Prince of Wales.
The Coat of Arms granted to Her Royal Highness is known as an impaled Coat of Arms, and it brings together The Prince of Wales's Coat of Arms with that of The Duchess's father, the late Major Bruce Shand.

The Duchess of Cornwall was also made a Grand Dame Cross of the Royal Victorian Order, which is an honour made by the Sovereign in recognition of personal service. Titles and Heraldry


Mods - if I've stepped over the bounds here on copying text - I apologize. Here in the states, government web pages are free game as long as you cite them. Permission to copy is not needed.
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  #2351  
Old 11-15-2013, 10:29 PM
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Regarding quoting material from The British Monarchy website, the fine print states "You may re-use the Crown copyright protected material...free of charge in any format for non-commercial research...The material must be acknowledged as Crown copyright and you must give the title of the source document/publication."
You have reproduced the material here at TRF as non-commercial research and have provided due attribution. Therefore all good.

- - - - - - - - - -


'Prince Consort'
I believe that one part of the problem that some members have with British Royal titles is the failure to distinguish between a descriptive term and a formal title.

For example, an essay on "European Crown Princesses" would include the Duchess of Cornwall. Obviously Camilla is not the Crown Princess of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland etc as no such title exists. But... the term "Crown Princess" in this context correctly describes her position as the wife of the heir to the throne. Similarly the Hereditary Grand Duchess of Luxembourg and the Hereditary Princess of Liechtenstein would also be included in any list of "Europe's Crown Princesses" although neither is formally titled "Crown Princess". The term is purely descriptive and most everyone knows exactly what it means and signifies.

The term "Prince Consort" when used generally describes the position of the spouse of a Queen Regnant as there is no convention anywhere that the husband of a Reigning Queen takes the title of King or King Consort. Prince Philip is a prince consort in descriptive terms but he is not THE Prince Consort. Simply because 'Prince Consort' in United Kingdom usage is a royal title that has been granted once only and that was to Prince Albert simply because Queen Victoria wished to enhance her husband's status.

Even so, Prince Albert's new Royal title carried no extra formal or legal precedence, privileges or rights just as the traditional Royal title of Princess Royal is purely honorific, a "gift" of the Monarch, denoting the bearer as the [eldest and non-inheriting] daughter of the Sovereign and ensuring that she "stands out" from the other Princesses of the Realm.

Short version: "prince consort" is a descriptive term for the husband of a Reigning Queen. Athough some monarchies may formalise it as the royal title borne by the husband of their Queen Regnant, Britain does not.

In the UK the title of a Queen Regnant's spouse is whatever he was born with or whatever he has been granted by Royal favour. Thus Lt Philip Mountbatten, having discarded his royal Greek title, was created Duke of Edinburgh etc by George VI when he married Princess Elizabeth and some years later was made a Prince of the United Kingdom by Elizabeth II.

I hope this helps to clarify why the Queen's husband is a prince consort but not THE Prince Consort and is very rarely described as such in any formal context.

NB.. the last few pages of this thread have little relevance to the topic of 'the Order of Precedence' and will shortly be moved over to the 'Styles and Titles' thread.
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  #2352  
Old 11-16-2013, 02:11 PM
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Is there a reason why queens consort aren't styled, for example, Queen Charles? (sounds a bit silly I know.) Camilla is obviously Princess Charles as a courtesy and doesn't hold the princess title in her own right - but why does it differ for queens consort? They, too assume their titles and styling from their husband (the king) don't they?
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  #2353  
Old 11-16-2013, 02:30 PM
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Is there a reason why queens consort aren't styled, for example, Queen Charles? (sounds a bit silly I know.) Camilla is obviously Princess Charles as a courtesy and doesn't hold the princess title in her own right - but why does it differ for queens consort? They, too assume their titles and styling from their husband (the king) don't they?
Hey..good one..I laughed when i read it first..But on second thought, if 'Princess Charles' is not silly/funny, then Queen Charles should also be not..right?
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  #2354  
Old 11-16-2013, 02:56 PM
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Hey..good one..I laughed when i read it first..But on second thought, if 'Princess Charles' is not silly/funny, then Queen Charles should also be not..right?
In the case of Princess Michael, she is using the feminine styling from her husband Prince Michael who holds no other titles for her to use. I believe that the full title of a Queen Consort is HM The Queen as her husband is HM The King.

Could it be that Queen Consort is more of a description of the type of Queen Camilla would be? I've seen the Queen Mum referred to as HM Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother but that was to differentiate between mother and daughter that have the same first names. As far as I know, I've never heard HM addressed as HM, The Queen Regnant.
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  #2355  
Old 11-16-2013, 04:06 PM
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A new question (I think!) - does a person's style and title change at all if there becomes a regency?
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  #2356  
Old 11-16-2013, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Anth View Post
Is there a reason why queens consort aren't styled, for example, Queen Charles? (sounds a bit silly I know.) Camilla is obviously Princess Charles as a courtesy and doesn't hold the princess title in her own right - but why does it differ for queens consort? They, too assume their titles and styling from their husband (the king) don't they?
While I understand where you're going here, the answer is actually really simple: a Queen's title isn't "Queen [Name]" it's "The Queen." No need for either her name or her husband's.

A consort's name comes into play when she is the Dowager Queen (or a Queen Mother, which is a type of Dowager Queen). So, Mary of Teck, for example, was HM The Queen while George V was alive, and became HM Queen Mary after his death.

[QUOTE="Osipi;1618670"Could it be that Queen Consort is more of a description of the type of Queen Camilla would be? I've seen the Queen Mum referred to as HM Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother but that was to differentiate between mother and daughter that have the same first names. As far as I know, I've never heard HM addressed as HM, The Queen Regnant.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. HM's title (the shortened form) is just The Queen. The longer form just adds her name and realms and secondary titles - at no point is it explicitly stated in her title that she's the Queen Regent, it's simply implied that you know that given as she's the monarch.

The Queen Mother's title took form because she had the same given name as HM. Had they had different names then HM would have been The Queen and the Queen Mother would have been Queen [Name], much like with previous consorts - Mary of Teck had been Queen Mother during the reigns of Edward VIII and George VI but didn't use the distinction, same with Alexandra.
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Old 11-16-2013, 04:18 PM
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A new question (I think!) - does a person's style and title change at all if there becomes a regency?
A title changes, the style stays the same.

We see this with George IV. Prior to becoming regent he was HRH The Prince of Wales. After becoming regent he was HRH The Prince Regent - he was still PoW, but Prince Regent was the higher title.
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  #2358  
Old 11-16-2013, 05:06 PM
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In the case of Princess Michael, she is using the feminine styling from her husband Prince Michael who holds no other titles for her to use. I believe that the full title of a Queen Consort is HM The Queen as her husband is HM The King. Could it be that Queen Consort is more of a description of the type of Queen Camilla would be? I've seen the Queen Mum referred to as HM Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother but that was to differentiate between mother and daughter that have the same first names. As far as I know, I've never heard HM addressed as HM, The Queen Regnant.
Once a woman becomes Queen Consort, she is HM The Queen as the wife of The Sovereign, but she is also HM Queen Christian Name in her own right for life. If she is widowed, she becomes a dowager queen with precedence after a regnant Queen or Queen Consort.

The Queen Mother used the style of "HM Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother" to differentiate herself from her daughter, plus she was the first dowager queen to ever see a daughter become The Sovereign.
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Old 11-16-2013, 05:16 PM
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The Queen Mother used the style of "HM Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother" to differentiate herself from her daughter, plus she was the first dowager queen to ever see a daughter become The Sovereign.
What does that have to do with anything?

The title Queen Mother doesn't mean that the individual is the Queen's Mother. It means that the individual is a former Queen Consort who is also the current monarch's mother, regardless of the gender of the monarch.

Elizabeth, Mary, and Alexandra were all Queen Mothers, but only Elizabeth used the title. Prior to Alexandra, you'd have to go back to Henrietta Maria of France to have a mother of the monarch survive into the reign of her son (Charles II).
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Old 11-16-2013, 05:35 PM
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What does that have to do with anything?

The title Queen Mother doesn't mean that the individual is the Queen's Mother. It means that the individual is a former Queen Consort who is also the current monarch's mother, regardless of the gender of the monarch.

Elizabeth, Mary, and Alexandra were all Queen Mothers, but only Elizabeth used the title. Prior to Alexandra, you'd have to go back to Henrietta Maria of France to have a mother of the monarch survive into the reign of her son (Charles II).
You are right Ish about that one. The title did exist before Elizabeth (the Queen Mother) but she is the only one to hold that title and I read that The Queen Mother hated the title Dowager Queen and after Queen Mary died turned it down even so she was still a dowager Queen. She opted to hold the title Queen mother instead making her the first. It also helped eased any future confusion because Queen Elizabeth had the same name as her mother

in the future Catherine will be a Queen Mother when Prince George comes to the throne but whether she hold the title who knows, we will have to just wait and see. that will be a long long long time from now. We will talk about tat them, Hopeful Royal Forum will still exist by then.
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