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  #2301  
Old 11-13-2013, 05:08 PM
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I've just looked back at the FAQs on the PoW website about Camilla being Queen...
Will The Duchess become Queen when The Prince becomes King?
As was explained at the time of their wedding in April 2005, it is intended that The Duchess will be known as HRH The Princess Consort when The Prince of Wales accedes to The Throne.


Intended and known? Not exactly legal laguage there really. Only time will tell what happens
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  #2302  
Old 11-13-2013, 05:17 PM
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He certainly left the matter open, regardless of what some people think. Charles has always taken a long-term view. He knows that most members of the public are fair and open-minded. Few people are still angry about events that happened more than 20 years ago. But the there is a steady drumbeat from the media that is difficult to ignore. He'll tread carefully.
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  #2303  
Old 11-13-2013, 05:36 PM
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The thing I find odd is that if Camilla is known as The Princess Consort, it alludes that she is a consort to a Prince. Charles will no longer be a Prince. Lumutqueen is right. Charles and his PR team really made a blunder with this one.
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  #2304  
Old 11-13-2013, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
The thing I find odd is that if Camilla is known as The Princess Consort, it alludes that she is a consort to a Prince. Charles will no longer be a Prince. Lumutqueen is right. Charles and his PR team really made a blunder with this one.
But isn't Philip known as the "Prince Consort?"
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  #2305  
Old 11-13-2013, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by US Royal Watcher View Post
But isn't Philip known as the "Prince Consort?"
No. The DoE is the consort to the Queen and he is a Prince, making him the Prince consort (note the capitalization) but he is not the Prince Consort. That is a title which was created for Prince Albert and has not been used in Britain since.
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  #2306  
Old 11-13-2013, 05:48 PM
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Thanks for the explanation, Ish. If there is a precedent for a Queen to have a "Prince Consort," I don't understand why King Charles couldn't have a "Princess Consort." Of course, Victoria was Queen when she and Albert married, but Charles and Camilla will be married when Charles becomes King.
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  #2307  
Old 11-13-2013, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by US Royal Watcher View Post
Thanks for the explanation, Ish. If there is a precedent for a Queen to have a "Prince Consort," I don't understand why King Charles couldn't have a "Princess Consort." Of course, Victoria was Queen when she and Albert married, but Charles and Camilla will be married when Charles becomes King.
It boils down to the fact that in the UK, women take their titles from their spouse. Camilla very well could be known now as The Princess Consort as she is married to a Prince of the UK. She is Princess Charles now. Once Charles becomes King, there will be no other title for Camilla to use legally other than Queen Consort. She did have a choice when she married Charles as he has several titles. Duke of Cornwall is the oldest one he has.
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  #2308  
Old 11-13-2013, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by US Royal Watcher View Post
Thanks for the explanation, Ish. If there is a precedent for a Queen to have a "Prince Consort," I don't understand why King Charles couldn't have a "Princess Consort." Of course, Victoria was Queen when she and Albert married, but Charles and Camilla will be married when Charles becomes King.
Charles could very well create a title Princess Consort for Camilla if he so wished.

What he cannot do as monarch is strip her of the title Queen Consort - parliament has to do that.

They can go one of three ways:
1. Charles creates a Princess Consort title for Camilla and she would use it instead of the title Queen Consort, while holding both (similar, but different, from her current situation as Princess of Wales/Duchess of Cornwall)
2. Charles creates a Princess Consort title for Camilla and Parliament strips her of her Queen Consort title, essentially creating morganatic marriage in Britain. This becomes trickier when you consider the other realms - does each realm have to introduce such legislature, or is it enough if the UK does so? Personally, I tend to think the former
3. Camilla becomes Queen Consort. The media makes a fuss about it, some people are disappointed or angered, but in general people move on

Personally, I think the best situation is #3. The first two both establish tricky precedents that can effectively end 1000 years of tradition. If Camilla isn't allowed to be Queen then what's it say for future consorts? Furthermore, in not allowing her to be Queen we're creating morganatic marriage - at a time when many other European monarchies are ending morganatic marriages.

Comparing Camilla's situation to that of the DoE or Prince Albert (or other male consorts) is a bit unfair. Women have always taken the titles of their spouses in Britain, men have essentially never done the same. Britain has had 5 undisputed female monarchs, 2 of whom were married to "kings" and who lost a lot of their power and position as such, and the other 3 who were married to "princes" and were able to maintain their positions. The idea of a King consort brings up a whole other set of issues associated with a woman's position in a marriage.
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  #2309  
Old 11-13-2013, 06:39 PM
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For her to be known as The Princess Consort she has to be The Princess Consort and she cannot be that without being stripped of her automatic title as Queen Consort. No legal language used because this hasn't happened before and I imagine Charles along with all of his PR department are hoping people have forgotten this massive faux paus.
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  #2310  
Old 11-13-2013, 06:44 PM
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I think one of the issue is that some part of the public think that Camilla, as Queen, may replace Queen Elizabeth II, making no difference btw the titles of Queen Regnant and Queen Consort.
Choosing for Camilla the title of HM the Queen Consort (unused but still perfectly exact) is maybe the key ...
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  #2311  
Old 11-13-2013, 07:08 PM
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All these posts and all these threads and so many still do not understand how the BRF is titled and structured.

I think either a Mod (Warren??) or expert poster (Ish, IluvBertie???) should write a definitive piece in layman's terms which could be used as a reference point. And it should be "sticky-ed". Please!!

Sorry to pick out certain bods but they are the ones that sprang immediately to mind. I'm sure there are others out there.

Not managed to sleep for c 30 hours so off to bed - tad tired. Night all.
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  #2312  
Old 11-13-2013, 07:14 PM
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The whole thing is pure speculation until the times comes, rules have been bent / altered in the past. None of us now what Charles and Camilla are thinking of. Only time will tell
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  #2313  
Old 11-13-2013, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by cepe View Post
All these posts and all these threads and so many still do not understand how the BRF is titled and structured...
should write a definitive piece in layman's terms which could be used as a reference point. And it should be "sticky-ed". Please!!
That would be helpful to me. I learn so much from this forum, I thought Philip was Prince Consort. I need to research how Albert got the title of Prince Consort. Good night, Cepe.
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  #2314  
Old 11-13-2013, 07:28 PM
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The whole thing is pure speculation until the times comes, rules have been bent / altered in the past. None of us now what Charles and Camilla are thinking of. Only time will tell
I take Charles at his word, he intends for Camilla to become Princess Consort. Those intentions may change. The question is how he intends to do it if Camilla does become Princess Consort.
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  #2315  
Old 11-13-2013, 07:31 PM
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I take Charles at his word, he intends for Camilla to become Princess Consort. Those intentions may change. The question is how he intends to do it if Camilla does become Princess Consort.
And thats the part that no-one knows and can only be speculated for now. Personally I really can't imagine Charles doing anything to take away / strip Camilla of a title. I think he'll try other ways before havig to formally remove the title legally.
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  #2316  
Old 11-13-2013, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by US Royal Watcher View Post
That would be helpful to me. I learn so much from this forum, I thought Philip was Prince Consort. I need to research how Albert got the title of Prince Consort. Good night, Cepe.
I think with Albert, the title was created because Victoria wanted to clearly define her husband's title and role. I believe Victoria wanted to create him King Consort but the government said no so instead she created him Prince Consort as a consolation.
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  #2317  
Old 11-13-2013, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by cepe View Post
All these posts and all these threads and so many still do not understand how the BRF is titled and structured.
Excellent idea! It would really be very helpful in the long run.

I think one reason that a lot of issues are visited and revisited over and over again is because we are constantly getting new members here that have questions. I'd add Lumutqueen to that list too. She taught me so much when I knew absolutely nothing by reading her posts.
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  #2318  
Old 11-13-2013, 07:40 PM
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I think with Albert, the title was created because Victoria wanted to clearly define her husband's title and role. I believe Victoria wanted to create him King Consort but the government said no so instead she created him Prince Consort as a consolation.
So it went through Parliament? Do you know if they acted before or after the marriage?
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  #2319  
Old 11-13-2013, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
I've just looked back at the FAQs on the PoW website about Camilla being Queen...
Will The Duchess become Queen when The Prince becomes King?
As was explained at the time of their wedding in April 2005, it is intended that The Duchess will be known as HRH The Princess Consort when The Prince of Wales accedes to The Throne.


Intended and known? Not exactly legal laguage there really. Only time will tell what happens
The key word is "intended" as the Government made it clear when Charles married Camilla that she would hold equal rank to her husband as HRH and share all of his titles. At her choice, she was styled The Duchess of Cornwall, rather than her senior title Princess of Wales, as a gesture to the memory of the late Princess Diana. This was appropriate given the circumstances and public opinion.

However, once Charles is King, Camilla is automatically HM The Queen. The precedent of 1936 has made it very clear that a morganatic marriage is not possible for The Sovereign without consent from Parliament and the Crown Commonwealth nations, and the wife of The King is automatically Queen and cannot hold a lesser title without legislation being passed.

Now, does that mean it is impossible for Camilla to be styled "HRH The Princess Consort"? No. It simply means legislation would have to be introduced to allow it to happen. The real question is whether any future Prime Minister is prepared to introduce such legislation and whether it would pass. My sense is the answer is no, but it will depend when the time comes.

Camilla cannot hold the rank of Queen and be styled as HRH at the same time. She is either one or the other.
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  #2320  
Old 11-13-2013, 07:48 PM
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So it went through Parliament? Do you know if they acted before or after the marriage?
Government in a British sense doesn't refer to the institution as a whole, like it does in the US, instead it refers to the party in power.

I don't know for certain how it all went down, but I would expect what happened is that at some point Victoria discussed it with her PM who I expect would have discussed it with his cabinet, and they came to the conclusion that Albert wasn't to be king (I don't think they wanted a foreign born man to usurp Victoria's power).

As Victoria didn't make Albert Prince Consort until 1857, I'm not sure how quickly any of this happened. It may be that she wanted to create him King Consort from the start, was shot down, and it took her time to come up with a solution, or it may be that the King Consort was something that came up because she wanted to reward him for the role he'd fulfilled. I'm inclined to think that it was something more of a combination - kind of like the Mountbatten-Windsor thing; it came up periodically until she pushed it and found a solution that worked.
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