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  #2301  
Old 11-13-2013, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by US Royal Watcher View Post
I take Charles at his word, he intends for Camilla to become Princess Consort. Those intentions may change. The question is how he intends to do it if Camilla does become Princess Consort.
And thats the part that no-one knows and can only be speculated for now. Personally I really can't imagine Charles doing anything to take away / strip Camilla of a title. I think he'll try other ways before havig to formally remove the title legally.
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  #2302  
Old 11-13-2013, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by US Royal Watcher View Post
That would be helpful to me. I learn so much from this forum, I thought Philip was Prince Consort. I need to research how Albert got the title of Prince Consort. Good night, Cepe.
I think with Albert, the title was created because Victoria wanted to clearly define her husband's title and role. I believe Victoria wanted to create him King Consort but the government said no so instead she created him Prince Consort as a consolation.
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  #2303  
Old 11-13-2013, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by cepe View Post
All these posts and all these threads and so many still do not understand how the BRF is titled and structured.
Excellent idea! It would really be very helpful in the long run.

I think one reason that a lot of issues are visited and revisited over and over again is because we are constantly getting new members here that have questions. I'd add Lumutqueen to that list too. She taught me so much when I knew absolutely nothing by reading her posts.
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  #2304  
Old 11-13-2013, 07:40 PM
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I think with Albert, the title was created because Victoria wanted to clearly define her husband's title and role. I believe Victoria wanted to create him King Consort but the government said no so instead she created him Prince Consort as a consolation.
So it went through Parliament? Do you know if they acted before or after the marriage?
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  #2305  
Old 11-13-2013, 07:47 PM
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I've just looked back at the FAQs on the PoW website about Camilla being Queen...
Will The Duchess become Queen when The Prince becomes King?
As was explained at the time of their wedding in April 2005, it is intended that The Duchess will be known as HRH The Princess Consort when The Prince of Wales accedes to The Throne.


Intended and known? Not exactly legal laguage there really. Only time will tell what happens
The key word is "intended" as the Government made it clear when Charles married Camilla that she would hold equal rank to her husband as HRH and share all of his titles. At her choice, she was styled The Duchess of Cornwall, rather than her senior title Princess of Wales, as a gesture to the memory of the late Princess Diana. This was appropriate given the circumstances and public opinion.

However, once Charles is King, Camilla is automatically HM The Queen. The precedent of 1936 has made it very clear that a morganatic marriage is not possible for The Sovereign without consent from Parliament and the Crown Commonwealth nations, and the wife of The King is automatically Queen and cannot hold a lesser title without legislation being passed.

Now, does that mean it is impossible for Camilla to be styled "HRH The Princess Consort"? No. It simply means legislation would have to be introduced to allow it to happen. The real question is whether any future Prime Minister is prepared to introduce such legislation and whether it would pass. My sense is the answer is no, but it will depend when the time comes.

Camilla cannot hold the rank of Queen and be styled as HRH at the same time. She is either one or the other.
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  #2306  
Old 11-13-2013, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by US Royal Watcher View Post
So it went through Parliament? Do you know if they acted before or after the marriage?
Government in a British sense doesn't refer to the institution as a whole, like it does in the US, instead it refers to the party in power.

I don't know for certain how it all went down, but I would expect what happened is that at some point Victoria discussed it with her PM who I expect would have discussed it with his cabinet, and they came to the conclusion that Albert wasn't to be king (I don't think they wanted a foreign born man to usurp Victoria's power).

As Victoria didn't make Albert Prince Consort until 1857, I'm not sure how quickly any of this happened. It may be that she wanted to create him King Consort from the start, was shot down, and it took her time to come up with a solution, or it may be that the King Consort was something that came up because she wanted to reward him for the role he'd fulfilled. I'm inclined to think that it was something more of a combination - kind of like the Mountbatten-Windsor thing; it came up periodically until she pushed it and found a solution that worked.
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  #2307  
Old 11-13-2013, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
...Camilla cannot hold the rank of Queen and be styled as HRH at the same time. She is either one or the other.
While I agree with what you've said overall - and find it to be really well put - you bring up an interesting point regarding styling.

I figured that Charles could, if he wanted, issue LPs creating Camilla Princess Consort while she still held the title Queen Consort, and she would just use the lesser title, similar to the current situation. In such case, as she would be HM The Queen, she couldn't be HRH The Princess Consort. However, could she be HM The Princess Consort?
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  #2308  
Old 11-13-2013, 07:55 PM
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So it went through Parliament? Do you know if they acted before or after the marriage?
It did not require an Act of Parliament, but consent from Victoria's ministers at the time. Albert was created The Prince Consort by Letters Patent and this was purely a courtesy title that had no particular meaning.

The same applied to Philip. He was a Duke of the Realm and HRH by Letters Patent of George VI, but not officially a Prince of the UK. Although Philip himself had no interest in a new title and was perfectly content to be HRH The Duke of Edinburgh, The Queen received consent from her ministers in 1957 to create him a Prince of the UK in his own right with Letters Patent as "HRH The Prince Philip".
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Old 11-13-2013, 08:00 PM
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I guess if Parliament agreed a person can be legally "HM Queen Camilla" but also be created a Princess of the UK with the rank of HRH at the same time, there is certainly nothing to stop The Sovereign from doing that.

But I think it would raise serious objections from constitutional experts, given that there is no precedent for a Queen Consort holding a lesser rank and title at the same time. Camilla wouldn't have any other title to use other than what her husband held, so how could she be called a Princess when her husband is not a Prince?
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  #2310  
Old 11-13-2013, 08:01 PM
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Thanks, branchg and Ish. Very interesting.
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Old 11-13-2013, 08:05 PM
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If I'm not mistaken, if Charles issued a LP to create Camilla Princess Consort, he would be in effect, creating Camilla as a Princess of the UK in her own right. She therefore would have the right to also be known as Princess Camilla. This is what happened to Philip after his wife ascended the throne. Until then, Philip just held the title The Duke of Edinburgh and his wife was Princess Elizabeth, The Duchess of Edinburgh. On becoming Queen, HM created Philip a Prince of the UK in his own right.

On Victoria and Albert, I think although The Prince Consort, Albert had a lot to do with Victoria's reign because she wanted it that way. They had side by side desks. From what I know (which is really quite limited) she involved Albert in just about everything and relied on him.
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  #2312  
Old 11-13-2013, 08:21 PM
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I think it would make more sense for The Queen to issue Letters Patent now creating Camilla a Princess of the UK in her own right. That way, it could be argued that once Charles is King, his wife was a Princess of the UK in her own right and could choose to use her own title at her own choice even though she was automatically Queen.

I mean, why wait?
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Old 11-13-2013, 08:32 PM
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To me, that would be opening up a huge can of worms. Even the beloved Diana was never a princess in her own right and neither is Sophie.
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  #2314  
Old 11-13-2013, 08:54 PM
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Camilla is a Princess of the UK already because she is married to a Prince of the UK. Just like Kate and Sophie. Unlike Anne, Bea and Eugiene, their Hrh is tied to their marriage. If they leave the marriage, they lose the Hrh like Diana and Fergie.

There isn't a need to make Camilla take a lesser title when she is Queen. She is going to be the highest rank women is the land when Charles is King and act as his consort. If Camilla uses a different name, she is still doing the work of the queen consort. She might as well use her legal title HM The Queen. Charles did the same thing as Camilla and he is going to be HM The King.
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  #2315  
Old 11-13-2013, 09:22 PM
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I think the best decision is to start call her "Queen-Consort" or "Queen-Consort Camilla" from the first day.
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  #2316  
Old 11-13-2013, 09:39 PM
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To me, that would be opening up a huge can of worms. Even the beloved Diana was never a princess in her own right and neither is Sophie.
I agree. I posted it to point out the ridiculous position of stating "intended" when the fact is she will be Queen automatically and there is no reason whatsoever for her to use a lesser style and title.

Camilla is already married and has the right to share her husband's rank and title when Charles becomes The Sovereign. It's not a popularity contest.
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Old 11-13-2013, 10:06 PM
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As Victoria didn't make Albert Prince Consort until 1857, I'm not sure how quickly any of this happened. It may be that she wanted to create him King Consort from the start, was shot down, and it took her time to come up with a solution, or it may be that the King Consort was something that came up because she wanted to reward him for the role he'd fulfilled. I'm inclined to think that it was something more of a combination - kind of like the Mountbatten-Windsor thing; it came up periodically until she pushed it and found a solution that worked.
From the start, Victoria wanted Albert to be King Consort, but Lord Melbourne shot down that idea. She wanted Albert to have rank and precedence immediately after herself, for his lifetime. There was quite a kerfuffle about his allowance and about him being given a peerage. Albert seemed quite happy with the titles he already had. Victoria issued letters patent on 5 March 1840 giving Albert the style and title of HRH which seems to have pacified everyone because as far as I can tell the issue of him being Prince Consort doesn't seem to have been revisited until 1857.
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  #2318  
Old 11-14-2013, 11:55 AM
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I think the best decision is to start call her "Queen-Consort" or "Queen-Consort Camilla" from the first day.
In my opinion, the best solution is to call her Her Majesty The Queen from the moment her husband becomes His Majesty The King. It's how things have been working from the past 1000 years.

Whatever happened between The Prince and Princess of Wales, Mrs Parker Bowles, and the Princess' lovers has nothing to do with the traditions of the British Monarchy. Some people have to face the fact that the Monarchy didn't began when Lady Diana Spencer married into the Mountbatten-Windsor family (I'm not saying you are one of those people, Spheno).
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Old 11-14-2013, 01:59 PM
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Camilla will legally be Queen Camilla from the moment Charles becomes King.

Should the King and Queen so choose, Queen Camilla could be styled as Princess Consort, despite being Queen. IMO, this would not require the consent of Parliament, or require any legislation to be passed.

Personally, I think the neatest way out of the issue of the Princess Consort title would be for the PM of the day to advise the King that his wife ought to be styled as the Queen, and not as as HRH. IMO, the matter will end there.

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On the day yes, in the weeks after yes, but when it comes to discussion of the coronation and the titles, Charles' words are going to be brought up over and over again. It was a massive massive mistake on his part and his PR teams part.
I am afraid I disagree. In early 2005, the wedding was seen as a major risk, the public had really not warmed to Camilla. IMO, this was a "safety net" or a sop that had to be offered at the time. This is materially different to public opinion and the opinion of the Press now. At the time, the Daily Mail and other tabloids used to regularly write hugely negative articles about Camilla, and to a somewhat lesser extent, Charles.
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Old 11-14-2013, 03:01 PM
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I have no issue with called Camilla Queen as that is what she will be legally. She will also be called Queen Camilla anyway, whether it is legal or not. Diana was always known as Princess Diana even though we know that that was not correct. In court circular documents and such, they can call Camilla whatever is chosen for her, but either way she will always be called Queen Camilla.

People call Catherine and Sophie Princesses. When Edward and Sophie were in the Caribbean for the Diamond Jubilee tour one of the carnival singers sang a song and openly called Sophie "Princess Sophie". People find it odd that in the UK the wife of a princess is not a princess.
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