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  #2301  
Old 11-13-2013, 03:53 PM
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Either way, precedent would be set for a situation that shouldn't arise anyway.
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  #2302  
Old 11-13-2013, 04:33 PM
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Why would Parliament need to do anything for Camilla to be known as 'Princess Consort'? When Charles becomes King Camilla will automatically become Queen in the eyes of the law. If she chooses to take a lower ranking title then why does Parliament need to get involved? They didn't need to when she decided to be known as Duchess of Cornwall.
Personally I think there won't be any legislation stripping Camilla of the title Queen, the only real possibilities in my mind are whether Camilla does become known as Princess Consort (Whilst legally, technically still Queen) as Clarence House have said since the marriage or whether that anouncement is quietly forgotten and she is known as Queen.
I can't see a Parliament stripping her of a title.
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  #2303  
Old 11-13-2013, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
Why would Parliament need to do anything for Camilla to be known as 'Princess Consort'? When Charles becomes King Camilla will automatically become Queen in the eyes of the law. If she chooses to take a lower ranking title then why does Parliament need to get involved? They didn't need to when she decided to be known as Duchess of Cornwall.
You answered your own question, to strip Camilla of a title that is legally hers "Queen", it would need new legislation putting in place in regards to monarchs spouses titles. Therefore parliament has to get involved.
They didn't get involved when she chose to use DOC because she already had that title. It was in the title bucket she could choose from being the wife of the POW. It usually of course goes that the higher title is used than the lesser one.


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Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
Personally I think there won't be any legislation stripping Camilla of the title Queen, the only real possibilities in my mind are whether Camilla does become known as Princess Consort (Whilst legally, technically still Queen) as Clarence House have said since the marriage or whether that anouncement is quietly forgotten and she is known as Queen.
I can't see a Parliament stripping her of a title.
iluvbertie explained the situation a few pages back;

Quote:
In 2005 it was announced that she 'intended on being known as Princess Consort'. That terminology is still the stated wording on the PoW website.

However it was also announced - by the then PM no less - that she would become Princess of Wales as soon as she was married AND that she would also be Queen Consort.

It was also made clear that legislation was needed to strip her of the title Queen Consort and create her Princess Consort - in 2005 - in the days leading up to the wedding.

The intention is still that she will be Princess Consort - but that means that the government of the day will have to pass the legislation to allow for a morganatic marriage which it was made clear in 1936 didn't exist in UK law - a wife takes all titles etc from her husband.
She cannot be Queen Consort and be known as The Princess Consort, doesn't work like that. She has to be one or the other.
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  #2304  
Old 11-13-2013, 04:48 PM
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When the time comes what was said back then will be the last thing on people's mind. Quite frankly Camilla title will be an afterthought on the day The Queen passes.
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  #2305  
Old 11-13-2013, 04:52 PM
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When the time comes what was said back then will be the last thing on people's mind. Quite frankly Camilla title will be an afterthought on the day The Queen passes.
On the day yes, in the weeks after yes, but when it comes to discussion of the coronation and the titles, Charles' words are going to be brought up over and over again. It was a massive massive mistake on his part and his PR teams part.
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  #2306  
Old 11-13-2013, 04:57 PM
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Surley Charles could allow her to be known as Princess Consort without going through rounds and rounds with Parliament? Didn't the Queen allow Princess Alice to known as that rather than HRH The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester? There is a difference to being legally entitled to a title and choosing to be known by that title or aother title.
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  #2307  
Old 11-13-2013, 04:59 PM
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I suppose nothing stops the palace from referring to her as "Princess Consort" or "fork" if they want, but does that really resolve the issue if her legal title is "Queen Consort?"
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  #2308  
Old 11-13-2013, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
Surley Charles could allow her to be known as Princess Consort without going through rounds and rounds with Parliament? Didn't the Queen allow Princess Alice to known as that rather than HRH The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester? There is a difference to being legally entitled to a title and choosing to be known by that title or aother title.
There is a difference here.

Princess Alice's title was Princess Henry, Duchess of Gloucester. All that changed was her using her first name instead of her deceased husband's first name - similar happened with Princess Marina. She still held all her titles.

With Camilla, she will hold no titles other than Queen Consort. In order to strip her of that title Parliament has to be involved - Parliament is necessary to strip someone of a title.

The title Princess Consort would have to be created just for her. While Charles could issue LPs to do so without Parliament's involvement, to make her not also be Queen then Parliament has to be involved.
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  #2309  
Old 11-13-2013, 05:08 PM
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I've just looked back at the FAQs on the PoW website about Camilla being Queen...
Will The Duchess become Queen when The Prince becomes King?
As was explained at the time of their wedding in April 2005, it is intended that The Duchess will be known as HRH The Princess Consort when The Prince of Wales accedes to The Throne.


Intended and known? Not exactly legal laguage there really. Only time will tell what happens
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  #2310  
Old 11-13-2013, 05:17 PM
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He certainly left the matter open, regardless of what some people think. Charles has always taken a long-term view. He knows that most members of the public are fair and open-minded. Few people are still angry about events that happened more than 20 years ago. But the there is a steady drumbeat from the media that is difficult to ignore. He'll tread carefully.
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  #2311  
Old 11-13-2013, 05:36 PM
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The thing I find odd is that if Camilla is known as The Princess Consort, it alludes that she is a consort to a Prince. Charles will no longer be a Prince. Lumutqueen is right. Charles and his PR team really made a blunder with this one.
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  #2312  
Old 11-13-2013, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
The thing I find odd is that if Camilla is known as The Princess Consort, it alludes that she is a consort to a Prince. Charles will no longer be a Prince. Lumutqueen is right. Charles and his PR team really made a blunder with this one.
But isn't Philip known as the "Prince Consort?"
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  #2313  
Old 11-13-2013, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by US Royal Watcher View Post
But isn't Philip known as the "Prince Consort?"
No. The DoE is the consort to the Queen and he is a Prince, making him the Prince consort (note the capitalization) but he is not the Prince Consort. That is a title which was created for Prince Albert and has not been used in Britain since.
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  #2314  
Old 11-13-2013, 05:48 PM
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Thanks for the explanation, Ish. If there is a precedent for a Queen to have a "Prince Consort," I don't understand why King Charles couldn't have a "Princess Consort." Of course, Victoria was Queen when she and Albert married, but Charles and Camilla will be married when Charles becomes King.
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  #2315  
Old 11-13-2013, 06:07 PM
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Thanks for the explanation, Ish. If there is a precedent for a Queen to have a "Prince Consort," I don't understand why King Charles couldn't have a "Princess Consort." Of course, Victoria was Queen when she and Albert married, but Charles and Camilla will be married when Charles becomes King.
It boils down to the fact that in the UK, women take their titles from their spouse. Camilla very well could be known now as The Princess Consort as she is married to a Prince of the UK. She is Princess Charles now. Once Charles becomes King, there will be no other title for Camilla to use legally other than Queen Consort. She did have a choice when she married Charles as he has several titles. Duke of Cornwall is the oldest one he has.
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  #2316  
Old 11-13-2013, 06:20 PM
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Thanks for the explanation, Ish. If there is a precedent for a Queen to have a "Prince Consort," I don't understand why King Charles couldn't have a "Princess Consort." Of course, Victoria was Queen when she and Albert married, but Charles and Camilla will be married when Charles becomes King.
Charles could very well create a title Princess Consort for Camilla if he so wished.

What he cannot do as monarch is strip her of the title Queen Consort - parliament has to do that.

They can go one of three ways:
1. Charles creates a Princess Consort title for Camilla and she would use it instead of the title Queen Consort, while holding both (similar, but different, from her current situation as Princess of Wales/Duchess of Cornwall)
2. Charles creates a Princess Consort title for Camilla and Parliament strips her of her Queen Consort title, essentially creating morganatic marriage in Britain. This becomes trickier when you consider the other realms - does each realm have to introduce such legislature, or is it enough if the UK does so? Personally, I tend to think the former
3. Camilla becomes Queen Consort. The media makes a fuss about it, some people are disappointed or angered, but in general people move on

Personally, I think the best situation is #3. The first two both establish tricky precedents that can effectively end 1000 years of tradition. If Camilla isn't allowed to be Queen then what's it say for future consorts? Furthermore, in not allowing her to be Queen we're creating morganatic marriage - at a time when many other European monarchies are ending morganatic marriages.

Comparing Camilla's situation to that of the DoE or Prince Albert (or other male consorts) is a bit unfair. Women have always taken the titles of their spouses in Britain, men have essentially never done the same. Britain has had 5 undisputed female monarchs, 2 of whom were married to "kings" and who lost a lot of their power and position as such, and the other 3 who were married to "princes" and were able to maintain their positions. The idea of a King consort brings up a whole other set of issues associated with a woman's position in a marriage.
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  #2317  
Old 11-13-2013, 06:39 PM
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For her to be known as The Princess Consort she has to be The Princess Consort and she cannot be that without being stripped of her automatic title as Queen Consort. No legal language used because this hasn't happened before and I imagine Charles along with all of his PR department are hoping people have forgotten this massive faux paus.
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  #2318  
Old 11-13-2013, 06:44 PM
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I think one of the issue is that some part of the public think that Camilla, as Queen, may replace Queen Elizabeth II, making no difference btw the titles of Queen Regnant and Queen Consort.
Choosing for Camilla the title of HM the Queen Consort (unused but still perfectly exact) is maybe the key ...
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Old 11-13-2013, 07:08 PM
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All these posts and all these threads and so many still do not understand how the BRF is titled and structured.

I think either a Mod (Warren??) or expert poster (Ish, IluvBertie???) should write a definitive piece in layman's terms which could be used as a reference point. And it should be "sticky-ed". Please!!

Sorry to pick out certain bods but they are the ones that sprang immediately to mind. I'm sure there are others out there.

Not managed to sleep for c 30 hours so off to bed - tad tired. Night all.
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  #2320  
Old 11-13-2013, 07:14 PM
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The whole thing is pure speculation until the times comes, rules have been bent / altered in the past. None of us now what Charles and Camilla are thinking of. Only time will tell
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