Questions about British Styles and Titles 1: Ending 2022

[Lady Nimue]

It was in 1999 when Tony Blair ‘reformed’ the House of Lords. Kicking out hereditary peers.
BBC News | UK Politics | Royals lose voting rights

Was this considered a 'good thing'? Was everyone happy? Clearly the Queen was required to 'go along'. Given I was not tracking on royalty (much) in the late 1990's, I am still aware of some stuff, like the decommissioning of the royal yacht. This Tony Blair was really out to clip the wings of the BRF, not so? What was that about? What was the reasoning? And have his actions in retrospect been generally looked upon as good, or bad? Wondering.

 

[Iluvbertie]

The idea was and still is to make the House of Lords more representative. That is why Life Peers get a seat for their 'lifetime' but hereditary peers now have to be elected from amongst their own except for those who have to have seats e.g. the Earl Marshal.

The intention is to eventually make the House of Lords fully elected - like the US and Australian Senates rather than a house for the privileged few. They have been steadily eating away at the power of the House of Lords since 1649 e.g. in 1660 by convention the Chancellor of the Exchequor, who controls the money sits in the Commons but the monarch is not allowed into the Commons at all (and that carries across into the other realms where she can't go into the Lower Houses - except Qld which doesn't have an upper house having abolished it some time ago.)

 

[Lady Nimue]

Thank you, Iluvbertie.

 

[kalnel]

Titles, subsidiary titles for Cambridge kids

Just curious: Why isn't Prince George known as "Prince George, Earl of Strathearn?" Is there a reason he doesn't use one of Wiliam's subsidiary titles until he gets a dukedom of his own?

 

[Iluvbertie]

He is a Prince and that takes precedence.

They use the subsidiary title when they don't have one of their own.

Going back a few generations:

Prince Henry was created Duke of Gloucester and his heir was known as Prince William of Gloucester and his younger brother as Prince Richard of Gloucester. When Prince Richard succeeded to the title and had a son his son - who isn't a Prince - uses the secondary title as a courtesy title and so is known as the Earl of Ulster.

Same with the Duke of Kent - present Duke was known as Prince Edward of Kent until he inherited the title as a male-line grandson of the monarch but his son, who isn't a Prince, is known as the Earl of St Andrews.

When Charles was born he was HRH Prince Charles not the Earl of Merioneth. Had George VI not issued the special LPs to give Charles the status of Prince from birth (being the child of a daughter he wasn't entitled to that as an automatic title) he would have used Earl of Merioneth and been known as Lord Charles Mountbatten, Earl of Merioneth.

William didn't use any of Charles' secondary titles while waiting for his Dukedom. Of course Charles does use them all at times anyway.

HRH Prince trumps Earl of yyyy so George uses HRH Prince George while James uses Viscount Severn because James isn't a Prince.

 

[Gawin]

George can only use Earl of Strathearn as a courtesy title. As Iluvertie points out he already has the title of Prince.

In William's case it isn't a courtesy title. He is legally a peer of the realm as Duke of Cambridge, Earl of Strathearn, and Baron Carrickfergus.

Because the son of a non-royal duke doesn't already have the title of Prince, he uses his father's subsidiary title instead.

When HH Prince Alastair of Connaught was deprived of his title of Prince by George V's Letter Patent he took the courtesy title of Earl of Macduff instead. He was able to do that because his mother was the Duchess of Fife with Countess of Macduff as her subsidiary title.

 

[Queen Claude]

My understanding is that George does not use the Earl of Strathearn title because he is a Prince in his own right which trumps using one of his father's lesser titles as a courtesy. If George was raised to the peerage as an Earl, he would still be a Prince but in that scenario his Earl title will trump his Prince title, and he would be known as The Earl of X.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

The wife of Prince Michael of Kent is Princess Michael of Kent. Why can she not be referred to as Princess Marie Christine of Kent?

 

[Somebody]

Because she is not a princess in her own right. It's exactly the same reason why Catherine cannot be called 'princess Catherine' as she is 'princess William' (next to being the duchess of Cambridge). The current duchess of Gloucester previously was known as 'the princess Richard of Gloucester'.

 

[Iluvbertie]

The wife of Prince Michael of Kent is Princess Michael of Kent. Why can she not be referred to as Princess Marie Christine of Kent?

She wasn't born a Princess of the UK and only gained that styling by marriage.

It is no different to Kate being Duchess of Cambridge as the wife of the Duke of Cambridge - she takes on the titles and styles of her husband but has none in her own right. Kate is a Princess of the UK as well - but if she used the style of Princess it would be Princess William not Princess Kate.

Diana was popularly called Princess Diana but that was never her correct style or title. She was HRH The Princess of Wales, Countess of Chester, Duchess of Cornwall etc etc but not Princess Diana. If she was Princess anything it was Princess Charles. She would even correct media types who would call her that (not the general public mind you but those she believed she 'know better').

The UK is old-fashioned in that regard.

Even Philip's mother - who was born a Princess in her own right - was referred to officially as Princess Andrew of Greece in the UK. The Queen did allow Marina (also born a Princess in her own right) to use Princess Marina after the death of her husband and the marriage of her son - she was referred to as The Duchess of Kent from the death of the late Duke to the marriage of the present Duke. When the late Duke of Gloucester died the Queen then allowed Alice to use Princess Alice even though she had never been a Princess in her own right but she, like Marina before her, didn't want to use 'Dowager Duchess' as their styles.

 

[Mbruno]

The wife of Prince Michael of Kent is Princess Michael of Kent. Why can she not be referred to as Princess Marie Christine of Kent?

That is the British custom for princesses by marriage. In the Netherlands, Laurentien for example is not a princess in her own right either, but she is referred to as Princess Laurentien of the Netherlands, rather than Princess Constantijn. Likewise, Sofia Hellqvist Bernadotte is called Princess Sofia of Sweden, rather than Princess Carl Philip.

In Belgium, the royal wives who became princesses in their own right by royal decree are referred to by their names, e.g. Princess Claire of Belgium, but the wife of Prince Amedeo for example is called Princess Amedeo by the Royal Court (informally, she is sometimes called Princess Elisabetta though).

I would say that the Brits and, to a lesser extent, the Belgians seem to be the only Royal Houses that cling to the old custom. In Denmark, they have found a creative solution: the princes and princesses of the blood are "prince/princess to Denmark" whereas the wives of princes, despite using their first name, are princess "of Denmark", so there is no confusion.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Princess Michael of Kent was Princess Marie Christine in her own right.

 

[Mbruno]

Princess Michael of Kent was Princess Marie Christine in her own right.

I think she was only a baroness, not a princess.

 

[Somebody]

Princess Michael of Kent was Princess Marie Christine in her own right.

Of what was she supposedly a princess in her own right?

As far as I know she was born Freiherrin Marie Christine von Reibnitz. Her maternal grandmother was a princess (and her mother a countess) but that didn't make her a princess... she needed her marriage to a prince of the UK to be called princess (Michael).

 

[Iluvbertie]

Princess Michael of Kent was Princess Marie Christine in her own right.

No she wasn't.

She was a baroness not a princess.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Mbruno and Iluvbertie and Somebody, Thank you for the clarification. The account I read may have been misinformed about Princess Hedwig von Windish-Graetz and Marie Christine.

 

[Duke_of_Jeroaldan]

Please clarify the title of HRH The Duchess of Cambridge, Kent and others

Good day everybody,

I've been studying European titles and styles on and off for the last year or so, using whatever limited resources I could find online.

I hope somebody is able to clarify this for me today:

My understanding is that in the UK, if a Royal Duke marries, his spouse is allowed the use of the female equivalent of his style and title.

Let's look at Catherine, The Duke of Cambridge's spouse. She is supposed to be styled as HRH The Duchess of Cambridge. However, everywhere online and in the media, I see her being referred to as Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge (note the absence of THE).

The way I see it, she is supposed to be referred to as Catherine, THE Duchess of Cambridge. Because, based on Courtesy title laws and usages, the following way of styling a noble's wife:

Name, PEERAGE of DOMINION - E.g. Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge

Is used for widowed or divorced spouses of Dukes.

There is supposed to be a THE in front of Duchess in her case, as she is still married to the current, living holder of that title.

The same could be observed about HRH The Prince of Wales.
As the son of a British Monarch, he is supposed to be THE Prince Charles if no references to his other titles are made. Yet, again, all over you will see a picture with the caption: Prince Charles.

If somebody could please correct me if my understanding is incorrect, or supply me with the correct protocols, I would greatly appreciate it.

Kindest regards

 

[Osipi]

As I see it, you've got everything spot on and correct. The media is notorious for using incorrect titles for just about everyone. There have been times even that it was reported that Her Royal Highness, The Queen was in attendance somewhere.

 

[Duke_of_Jeroaldan]

I cannot thank you enough! I thought I was going crazy! So glad to see all my studying has been done correctly! haha

 

[Osipi]

I cannot thank you enough! I thought I was going crazy! So glad to see all my studying has been done correctly! haha

This is definitely the place to find out all those little details that can drive us nuts and its also the best place to ask questions as people are more than happy to share what they know with you and discuss and debate things.

Always feel free to ask questions. Its what starts good conversations.

 

[Somebody]

The only thing I'd like to add is that it is indeed 'HRH The Duchess of Cambridge' and not '(HRH) Catherine, the Duchess of Cambridge'.

Catherine is not to be used in combination with 'the Duchess of Cambridge'. She will start using her own first name again as queen .

As you most likely know, she is also HRH princess William of Wales, the Countess of Strathearn and Lady Carrickfergus.

 

[Iluvbertie]

The formal way of referring to these people would include the use of 'The' but the media etc uses a more informal way of referring to them.

It is actually incorrect to use Catherine at all for HRH The Duchess of Cambridge. They don't use their names (other than Charles in Scotland) when referring to them.

In Scotland Charles is HRH The Prince Charles, The Duke of Rothesay but everywhere else it is just the title that is use without any name - so HRH The Prince of Wales or HRH The Duke of Cornwall, when in Cornwall or somewhere owned by the Duchy, or in Chester - HRH The Earl of Chester.

Even The Queen formally doesn't have Elizabeth as she is simply Her Majesty The Queen.

The formal use usually only appears in something like the Court Circular or on the BRF's website.

The informal use is used in the media as they don't think the general public could possible understand that HRH The Duchess of Cambridge it the same person as HRH Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge - or even is the same person as Kate Middleton, which they often still use to describe her anyway.

 

[Mbruno]

The only thing I'd like to add is that it is indeed 'HRH The Duchess of Cambridge' and not '(HRH) Catherine, the Duchess of Cambridge'.

Catherine is not to be used in combination with 'the Duchess of Cambridge'. She will start using her own first name again as queen .

As you most likely know, she is also HRH princess William of Wales, the Countess of Strathearn and Lady Carrickfergus.

Her long title is

HRH Princess William, Duchess of Cambridge, Countess of Strathearn, Baroness Carrickfergus

She is referred to in the short title as HRH The Duchess of Cambridge.

 

[Pranter]

Question about Prince Edward:

Ok if Phillip passes before the Queen, I thought the Queen could then create Edward the new Duke of Edinburgh. I've seen it said elsewhere that this can't happen until after the Queen passes because Charles inherits his father's titles....then Charles will have to create Edward the DoE after he is King.

Just trying to get clarity!


LaRae

 

[Rudolph]

Question about Prince Edward:

Ok if Phillip passes before the Queen, his title reverts back to the Crown ...now I thought the Queen could then create Edward the new Duke of Edinburgh. I've seen it said elsewhere that this can't happen until after the Queen passes because Charles inherits his father's titles....then Charles will have to create Edward the DoE.

Just trying to get clarity!


LaRae

If Philip passes before the Queen the peerage goes to Charles. When Charles is king the title is available to be created for Edward.

 

[Pranter]

Ok cool ..thanks!


LaRae

 

[Iluvbertie]

Question about Prince Edward:

Ok if Phillip passes before the Queen, I thought the Queen could then create Edward the new Duke of Edinburgh. I've seen it said elsewhere that this can't happen until after the Queen passes because Charles inherits his father's titles....then Charles will have to create Edward the DoE after he is King.

Just trying to get clarity!


LaRae

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f23/the-future-of-the-duke-of-edinburgh-title-24343.html

In this thread there was even discussions about theoretical permutations for the Edinburgh title which could see it never be available for Edward or he could inherit it directly.

Note this thread dates from before William and Kate's marriage and children but the principle is still the same:

e.g. If the Queen, Charles, William and George all predeceased Philip (and no one is suggesting that could happen - this is simply a theoretical discussion) then Charlotte inherits the throne and Louis inherits both Cambridge AND Edinburgh.

Louis' birth added a new person in the line of succession to Edinburgh which is now - Charles, William, George, Louis, Harry, Andrew, Edward and James.

If all of the above listed males ahead of Edward were to predecease Philip then Edward would inherit all of his father's titles while Charlotte would become Queen ... and Edward would add Edinburgh, Merioneth and Greenwich to his titles. James would then use Earl of Merioneth as his courtesy title and his eldest son would use Earl of Wessex (Merioneth is the older title).

The Edinburgh title has the standard remainder - heirs male of the body - and so his heirs male are all able to inherit the title until one of those heirs male also becomes King and so the title 'merges with the Crown'. That is expected to happen when Charles is King - either immediately or sometime afterwards.

Had Philip died before 6th February, 1952 Charles would have inherited the Edinburgh title at that point.

 

[Pranter]

New question! Was chatting elsewhere and something was mentioned about the Letters Patent not being made public for the Duke of Windsor. Is this because it was so long ago or are they able to be viewed just at some little known website etc?

Thanks for the info on the DoE Bertie!

LaRae

 

[Ish]

Not sure if it was made public at the time or not, but Heraldica has the LPs now: http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/prince_highness_docs.htm#1937

 

[Pranter]

I found that earlier...nothing about a remainder though? Since it's not stated then assume there isn't /wasn't one?

Wasn't sure that one was complete?


LaRae